6 film saga to be seen straight through in what order???

Never said I didn't care for the films, though there are large chunks of TPM and ROTJ I don't like. Honestly, if I took TPM and ROTJ as standalone movies and not part of a greater saga, I probably would never give them a second though. But because they are pieces that weave into a greater whole, I appreciate how it all comes together. Saying I don't care for the films is a bit much. There are definitely segments of TPM and ROTJ that I don't care for, though. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way (or feel that way about different films in the saga) - hence, the magic of the "next chapter" button!

 

IV, V, VI, I, II, III, IV, V, VI.

The OT is still Lucas' masterpiece, the prequel trilogy an unprecedented look backwards, adding backstory to the most beloved story of the past century.

So introduce my kids to the gold that is the OT, then watch the PT, then the OT once again.

I suppose the good thing about watching the OT after the PT is that, every time Vader was coming close to Luke or Leia, you'd be freaking out because he's their father but also this twisted evil individual!

Lucas recently said, when a fan asked him straight up at CIII why the PT wasn't as interesting as the OT, "I had this backstory to do. TPM had about 20% of the story, and AOTC another 20%. ROTS tells the rest of the story."

I like TPM a lot, although if I had my way, all I would do with the Gungans is make their voices less annoying and cut a few of the more ridiculous scenes (Jar-Jar flopping around with the laser gun on his leg, the eopie farting at Jar-Jar).

As far as AOTC goes, I would cut a bit of the Coruscant chase, as much as I like it, and cut out everything after "I'd be much too frightened to tease a Senator" until Anakin has the nightmare (Anakin riding the Shakk, rolling in the hay, the horrid dinner scene).

Wait - I'd keep the fireplace scene, b/c I actually like the dramatic tension there, and the foreshadowing "We'd be living a lie......you're right, it would destroy us." But I'd replace the Sound of Music with Anakin and Padme meeting her family, possibly the bedroom scene, then go to the fireplace scene.

Then I'd cut most of the droid control scene.

And that's it, I swear!

And this is only tenuously connected to 3NS, but what the heck.

 

In the first post of this thread, I said

"I wish to raise ONLY ONE new point to this debate. Nevermind the fact that new viewer would know who Luke and Leia's father is before Vader reveals it in ESB. I'm interested in the continuity of the way the force is explained."

Funny how we always get off track. Any comments on this part of the debate?

 

Heh, should almost just start a new thread specifically on the nature of the Force.

My thoughts:

I don't hate the midichlorian explanation as much as some people, but in some ways, it wasn't necessary. Sure, they have to show just how powerful in Force potential is Anakin, but Qui-Gon could have just done the "Vulcan mind-meld" or something and measured it with the Force. In fact, that almost makes more sense.

Then we don't really talk about the Force very much in AOTC, except how the Dark Side is clouding everything and the Jedi are losing their ability to use the Force. Of course, this is supposed to mean "seeing the future", not overall Force use, as far as I can tell.

Then I suppose we'll see in ROTS. But I would guess that the Big Three: Yoda, Mace, and Obi-Wan, are beginning to realize the mistakes the Jedi Order has made staying on Coruscant, an unnatural planet full of politics, greed and corruption, and my guess (and this is speculation, I'm not sure at all on this point) or my hope is that Anakin will have a chance to fulfill the Prophecy in ROTS by killing Palpatine, and he chooses not to.

If he killed Palpatine, the surviving Jedi would have moved off of Coruscant, and perhaps Obi-Wan would take over the Jedi Council after Yoda and Anakin would lead reforms in the Order.

Anyway, that's a Fan Fiction story waiting to happen. Or SW: Infinities.

In ANH, it seems only Obi-Wan and Vader even believe in the Force - Admiral Motti gets choked by Vader for making fun of it, and Han Solo laughs at Luke's attempts to use it. We start to believe there might be something to it, especially when Obi-Wan disappears and then Luke hears his voice, shuts off his targeting computers, and blows up the Death Star.

Then in ESB, we learn (again, if you've already watched the PT) about the Dark Side of the Force and Yoda's additional comments. Plus we get to see Obi-Wan appear as a Jedi Ghost.

Then in ROTJ, we don't really learn much more, except that Yoda and Anakin both join Obi-Wan as Jedi Ghosts.



You know, come to think of it, another advantage to watching the Saga IV-V-VI-I-II-III is that the progression in understanding the Force is better.

 

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 is the proper order to watch the films. For those worried that new viewers won't "get it" if watched in numerical order, your fears are misplaced. I know at least one person who started watching the films when Episode 1 was released and he has had no trouble with the various concepts of the saga like the force or the role of the Jedi.

Frankly, trying to maintain the "I am your father!" surprise is a poor reason to muck with the order of the narrative.

 

Though I never really thought about 4-5-1-2-3-6, I really do like the idea. It keeps both the Vader surprise and the Palpatine surprise under wraps. However, at what age do you think would be best to show it to your kids? At 7 or 8 they're too young to really gasp all of it - sure they'll like the action and stuff (I know many 4 year olds that watch and love the films), but I know I enjoy and understand the films now more than I did in 6th grade when I first saw them. But at 10 or 11 it's not likley that pop culture will already have spoiled them. And by 13 or 14 (when I personally would LOVE to show it to my kids for the first time) there's no WAY they'll be spoiler free. So another thing to think about...

 

As far as the Force explanation in the PT, there are two thoughts I have on this:

1) Lucas flubbed it, and should have had a basic expository scene in TPM where the Force was explained, so viewers watching 1-6 would understand

OR

2) The lack of explanation was intentional, and fits with the story. In the PT, the Jedi have lost the true meaning of the Force, and become embroiled in politics and government. The midichlorians are one symbol of how the Jedi have lost touch with the true nature of the Force, using technology instead of their natural abilities. So, in this sense, perhaps in ROTS Yoda and Obi-Wan realize their mistake, and thus the explanations in the OT are kind of a revelation, and admittance that the Jedi Order was wrong, and that is the reason it was destroyed.

On a separate note...I think that by adding back in the deleted dinner scene and kitchen scene with Padme's family in AOTC, the love story is immediately more believable to me. That was the only scene where I felt I could understand her, and see that perhaps she really was falling for this guy. As it stands, it doesn't work for me when she all of a sudden starts acting all gushy in the arena. I don't see her motivation. So the family scenes in AOTC would be added in to my edit of the Saga.

 

Well, storm and I agree on the dinner scenes. I think we should petition Lucas to include them back in.

 

Generally speaking I have always felt people make too much of preserving the "Vader Surprise" in Episode 5. I think it is very interesting to watch the OT for the first time having already seen the PT. Its something that none of us can really relate to at all. Its all about perspective or, forgive me, "point of view"

Right now, we have always watched the OT from Lukes point of view. We learn about the Force for the first time as he does. We learn about Obi, Ani and Vader all at the same pace as Luke. In many ways, we are watching the PT from Lukes point of view then also.

Watching it 1-6 in order, causes the viewer to watch the story unfold essentially from Obi-Wan's point of view. And while that is of course drastically different, I think it could be very cool.

I like the idea that when we see old Obi-Wan show up on Tat, walking up the hill with his hood up. When he pulls that hood off. We probably wouldnt recognize him, but we d be pretty sure it might be our old friend Obi-Wan. As he explains things to Luke, we would know what hes talking about and then wonder "whats the old man up to?" Not telling Luke the whole truth.

When we see Luke meet Yoda, we will be excited. Luke wont know who he is yet, but we will. "Im looking for a Jedi Master...Yoda, you seek Yoda.....You know him?"
We are watching these movies from a more wise point of view. Darth Vader and Luke Fighting? We know the truth, but we revel in Vaders conversation that he has with Luke slowly leading to the revelation that we know is coming. And then we get to watch Luke react.

I think this would be fantastic. Not better than 456123, just different.

I will have two kids and make one watch one way and one watch the other.

The more important question than what order to watch them, is will you make your kids wait three years between each one?

 

it is still a surprise for luke, and thats all that matters. there are plenty of epic stories where the audience knows things that the hero doesnt. take oedipus for example, we know that he is indeed the killer he is searching for long before he does. it doesnt mean any of the dramatic story telling is lost, in fact it is heightened. to be able to tell the story a certain way, and to pull of a dramatic moment where the hero finally understands what we have already known is far more powerful than a "that came out of nowhere" moment. the big surprises are great the first time, but every time after that you already know it, so basically the scene works as a one time deal. the reason we still love the scene isnt really because it has dramatic weight, but more because we fondly remember how well the surprise was pulled off. besides that, to say that having ONE moment "ruined" would hurt the series must mean that all of us dont really enjoy the star wars movies just because we already know they end. personally, i love watching ANH and watching for all the little moments where the true story behind vader is hinted at, but luke doesnt realize it yet.

to watch the series 1-6 gives us the story as it is meant to be. someone who watches it for the first time that way will be shocked by anakin's downfall and horrified at the terrible things that take place. he or she will understand the real danger that faces luke long before he does, and that is part of the power behind the twin's half of the story.

 

I'd love a good memory wipe just so i could watch Episodes I-VI in complete ignorance.Also, the memory wipe would help me get over some rather "un-glorious" Episodes in my own life

 

People are also forgetting that those watching the films in their proper order for the first time will still be in for many surprises. For instance, Anakin Skywalker, the hero of the story, becomes the villian, and the good Supreme Chancellor Palpatine is revealed to be the Sith master the Jedi have been searching for!

Watching the films out of order will completely ruin these surprises for any new viewers, which would be a crying shame.

 

The crux of this is that Lucas is caught between making movies that serve as the begining of the saga but also that serve as backstory to be seen after the originals.

Because of that there is more than one valid way to watch them but here's the thing...
The PT was meant to serve as both after the fact backstory (answering the questions raised in the OT) and as the intro.
The OT, however, was specifically written for people who did not know the events of 1-3.
So, while the prequels are versatile, the OT was meant to be seen first because they were the only SW movies in existence when Lucas wrote them.

For instance... Does anybody really think Ep V was designed for people who already knew Vader was Luke's father? Of course not. It was clearly written for people who didn't know.
The narrative intent that Lucas had when writing/making the OT is arguably lost when you watch the prequels first.

 

Well I'm pretty sure we're all going to watch them from 1-6 in order since we know all the saga's secrets.

If I were showing it to someone who had never seen the OT and knew nothing of the Skywalker lineage, I'd let him choose. "Do you want to watch them out of order, as I did, and preserve the greatest movie twist of all time, or do you want to watch them in order, as I do now, shifting the surprises to earlier in the story-- lessening their dramatic impact but retaining the order of the saga and giving a more satisfying ending?"

 

That's a great way to pose the question...but maybe a bit too philosophical for the 8 year old kids we're all going to be posing it to...everyone over that age has seen the films, thus it will be a future generation we're presenting the choice to. And I know that my kids (future kids...) won't have the luxury of waiting until they are adults to see it. Huh, I wonder how long I'll be able to hold out before I make them watch?

As far as the Vader surprise being preserved, I do think it is important. I honestly don't remember how I reacted, but I am sure it blew me away.

 

I darn near crapped myself when I saw ESB in the theaters, back in the day. Vader = Luke's father really just shocked me, still does.

I think 1-6 is probably the best way to watch SW, because it truly becomes the Saga of Anakin Skywalker. 1-3 we are introduced to him, learn about his Jedi past, and then see his fall from the light. In 4-6, we see his darkness, his unraveling, and his redemption. 1-6, with the surprise being explained early on, will still work. It's a 6 act play, basically.

 

Lucas said that the "I am your father" bit was so shocking, he felt he needed to affirm its truth in ROTJ; thus, the scene where Luke asks Yoda "Is Darth Vader my father?"

Supposedly people either (a)were amazed, (b) angry at Lucas, or (c) believed Vader was lying.

 

I was thinking about this topic the other day and I'm beginning to like the 4-1-2-5-3-6 sequence more and more. Here's my reasoning:

4: Introduction to the force and the notion of Anakin being killed by Darth Vader. Plus, it's a standalone movie moreso than the others, so it's a good introduction.

1 and 2: Now that we've seen a bit of Luke's journey, we travel back to understand the origins of the Empire and Luke's father.

5: The big revelation - hopefully leaving new viewers with "was he telling the truth?" feeling.

3: This affirms Vader's story

6: The resolution

One way I came to this conclusion was that I was relating it to one of my favorite video game series - Metal Gear Solid. (Spoilers ahead if you haven't beaten any of the games) The first game (and the original Nintendo game, which I am a proud owner of way back from 1987) establishes the main character and the themes of the series. The second game throws it for a loop, and at the end of the game, you're getting misinformation from several different sources about who is controlling what - some of it makes sense and some is outlandish and you have no real way of discerning the 'truth' from the 'lies' (of course, one of the themes of the game is that truth is from "a certain point of view" but that's a whole other topic). In any case, the third game is a prequel that answers most of the open questions from the second one. When the last bits of the ending sequence came up and it finally locked together, I had that "a-ha!" feeling which was pretty awesome.

I think that if you were showing someone the saga for the first time, I think the uncertainty behind ESB followed by answers in ROTS and then resolution in ROTJ would be pretty cool.

 

I apologize, but at first I thought the 4,5,1,2,3,6 was the stupidest thing I've ever heard...then I thought about it and realized that it is actually a great idea. I would still probably lean more towards 1 through 6 or Old Trilogy then New, but the first idea definitely has its merits.

As for the debate on the Force exposition/explanation: I think it is a problem for Ep. I, which might be a good argument for watching the Old Trilogy first. He doesn't explain what the Force is, how it gives them power, or the nature of the dark side. I don't blame GL for this though, because had he repeated himself, fans would have been all bent, saying, "We know this already, everybody knows this, tell us something we don't know about!!" I seem to recall people criticizing Yoda for repeating some of his teachings in ROTJ about fear, anger, and aggression. I felt that that was an essential point to remind the audience about, because the critical theme in ROTJ is Luke's temptation to become his father via those principles. It had been three years since ESB, so I think it is valid to remind the audience of that. Not everyone that watches these films has them memorized line for line, and the casual viewer must be included in making these films, otherwise they become Star Trek flicks.

 

bswb, the problem with 4-1-2-5-3-6 is that if you watch 1 and 2 after 4 you will already know (or guess) that Anakin is going to become Vader. There are too many clues and signs. Obi-Wan talks about his student that turned to evil. In 1 and 2 they talk about the rule of having a single padawan, and in 2 you see that padawan starting to go bad. So I don't think you can watch 1 and 2 and truly preserve the surprise.

 

Well this thread seems like it was started in the typical OT first or PT first debate. Now it seems we are all talking about splitting up the two series and doing some mixing and matching. So my next question is this. Would any of you want to mix and match even within movies. Would you stop halfway through a movie and then move to another? Just a thought not that any of us would do anything like that.

-T

 

princethomas...not only will I mix and match within movies, but I will even go so far as to mix and match with a different series!!! Somewhere between the battle of Hoth and the Podrace I am going throw The Wrath of Khan in there, how do you like me now?!

 

Another troublesome issue...Qui-Gon uses the mind trick repeatedly in TPM, that might be completely lost on viewers who have not seen ANH.

 

Qui-Gon uses the mind trick repeatedly in TPM, that might be completely lost on viewers who have not seen ANH.

"You think you're some kind of Jedi, waving your hand around like that? I'm a Toydarian, mindtricks don't work on me"

I think they'll get it...

- O_F

 

That's half way through.I just popped the movie in this afternoon to watch. When Qui-Gon is using the trick on Boss Nass, first time viewers will be confused or just miss it entirely and think the Gungan leader is a moron. (Which he is, but that's another conversation)