CT 7 Ways The Empire was Actually Good.

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Beard_vs_Geek, Dec 5, 2016.

  1. Beard_vs_Geek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Hello Everyone,
    I'm new on here and I'm super exited to talk to everyone about one of my favorite topics. STAR WARS So I actually just made a video about this topic yesterday. I'm rather tired of everyone saying and inferringthat The Empire is just a giant evil organization. So here is 7 ways The Galactic Empire is good for the average citizen.
  2. Beard_vs_Geek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2016
    So what do you guys think? What others ways is The Galactic Empire good for the average citizen?
  3. Lt. Hija Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2015
    star 4
    Let's ask these average citizens...

    [IMG]

    Previously, that's what another average citizen had to say about the Galactic Empire:

    LUKE I can't get involved! I've got work to do! It's not that I like the Empire. I hate it! But there's nothing I can do about it right now. It's such a long way from here.

    Luke's reply always reminded me of the average attitude, in particular what happened in Germany, is happening right now in Turkey and IMHO also in the Galactic Empire in a galaxy "far, far away":

    [IMG]

    That corruption will end with a dictatorship is a myth - corruption usually continues but is now concealed from the public eye.

    And with taxation of certain goods you don't fight piracy and crime but actually nurture it.

    And any political system that feels it requires mass genocide (Alderaan) to keep peace and order requires to be crushed and abolished.
    Last edited by Lt. Hija, Dec 5, 2016
  4. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 6
    It's not an inference.
    [IMG]


    I'm not going to watch your video, but if you post your listicle in text, I'll read it. It'll be much faster for me that way.
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  5. Nehru_Amidala Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2016
    star 5
    I am staying out of this one.
  6. Beard_vs_Geek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Ok. 1. We don't know what happened between the stormtroopers and Luke's aunt and uncle.
    2. Luke's opinion is just that, LUKE'S OPINION. not a galactic poll.
    3. Dude we are talking about star wars. it's fake don't bring in nazis and whats going down in turkey. Yes star wars can teach us about real life but it is also escapism so come on.
    4. The Star Wars movies are largely from the Rebels view point. It is far from fair and objective.
    Yes I will admit that The Galactic Empire has done some bad ****, but every government fictitious and real has also done some bad ****. The Rebels are a group of terrorist killed millions of innocent people who where just punching a clock. Star Wars is black and white on the service but when you start really looking at it, it's all about shades of grey. In the video I just pointed out some good things the empire does. If you don't agree fine but at least try to open your eyes and accept the fact that The Empire like The Rebels are shades of grey.
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  7. Lt. Hija Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2015
    star 4
    1. Vader gave specific orders to retrieve the plans (and in the extended screenplay made it clear that he didn't want to attract any attention, which Commander Praji apparently interpreted to kill anyone that even came close to the plans - first the Jawas, then Luke's foster parents). It shows that from the viewpoint of the Empire the individual life is worth nothing.
    2. Through the character of Luke we learn from George Lucas that there are reasons why the average citizen despises the Empire. And the prologue identifies the Galactic Empire as "evil".
    3. It was crafted as a fairy tale in space with clear cut good and bad characters.
    4. It's the view point of George Lucas, the dude that made the film, and how he thinks about totalitarian systems, surpressing the individual is pretty self-evident from THX 1138.
    5. There is no clue, hint or evidence whatsoever in the OT that the Rebels are a terrorist group that killed millions of innocent people (that's what the Empire did when they obliterated Alderaan). In case you are referring to the Death Star personnel - well, it definitely was a military target and I'm certain everyone on board was sufficiently aware of that.

    The 1970s were full of shades of grey and George Lucas wanted to give audiences something different, something were you could easily tell the good guys and the bad guys apart. I see no reason whatsoever why we should question his vision.
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  8. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 6
    Let's ask the Alderaanians if the Empire was actually good.

    Oh, wait... I guess not.
    Last edited by Sarge, Dec 5, 2016
  9. Beard_vs_Geek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2016
    I may not be a Jedi but I'm sensing a lot of closed mindedness and hostility.
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  10. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    No, what you are sensing is other posters not agreeing with your assessment.

    People are not required to view the Empire as "actually good" or "good for the average citizen."

    We do occasionally get pro-Imperial viewpoints around here but they generally get the same reaction you just did.
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  11. Lt. Hija Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2015
    star 4
    @Beard_vs_Geek wrote

    I may not be a Jedi but I'm sensing a lot of closed mindedness and hostility.

    To be perfectly honest I'm scared s***less when I see any form of propagation suggesting that dictatorships and totalitarian regimes might have benefits for the people living in such political systems and ignore or downplay all the negative and horrible ramifications which are well documented and easily available for anybody to read and learn about.

    The Italian philosopher George Santayana once said: Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

    By ignoring all the horrors and atrocities that happened during dictatorships and considering all the populist movements sympathizing with many ideas previously propagated by dictatorships we are - indeed - condemned to repeat history.

    Our ancestors and/or forefathers paid in blood to enable their children and grand-children (i.e. us) to enjoy civil rights and protection from arbitrary state power. Even to remotely suggest it's not a big deal and we might just as well live without these privileges, is simply beyond me.

    Highly recommended for reading (by @anakinfansince1983):

    http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2016/11/is-the-empire-a-white-supremacist-organization-should-it-be/

    (I'm on the same page as David Schwarz)
    Last edited by Lt. Hija, Dec 6, 2016
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  12. Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2016
    star 2
    The Galactic Empire came out of the Clone Wars. A period of unrest in the Galaxy. Their was no winners in that conflict only the Sith remained and they carved out the Empire we see in ANH. It is also worth pointing out that the Empire may not be all bad but that excludes what is going on elsewhere in the Galaxy. Jabba the Hutt and other cartels control the outer territories. With the Jedi gone all the history and science of the Galaxy has vanished into time. Only Yoda is aware of the old Republican ways. Then we have the Mandalorians as seen by Boba Fett, the other petty warlords that rule entire solar systems. The fundamental problem with the Empire is what has happened in the intervening period. Politics, military, religion and resources are all controlled by the totalitarian Emperor. Even the Grand Moffs don't realise how little power they really have. Failure to crush a rebellion, mutiny or crime syndicate will result in Grand Moff's demise. So you see the Empire does exist to subjugate the populations of the Galaxy without actually keeping the citizens free and safe.
    Last edited by Bob the X-Winger, Dec 6, 2016
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  13. Beard_vs_Geek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Lt. Hija, your not getting it. All I'm saying is that there is a mixture of good and bad in everything. Yes The Galactic Empire (a fictional government) did commit atrocities and so has almost every government on the planet we will in. If you wanna talk history, fine let's talk history.
    Just take the United States, the model for "freedom" and democracy in the modern world. It has dropped two nucular bombs in span of minutes that kill and radiated thousands of civilians. It also set out cops to beat the crap out of people who's opinions didn't conform to the majority. It supported slavery for almost a hundred years and further oppression of people to this very day.
    Don't just look at the Nazis and totalitarian governments as evil. Every system of government past and present has done SOME GOOD and SOME BAD. That's all I'm trying to say. The Nazi's under Hitler and the Communists under Lennon and Stalin has committed several atrocities, but they also did some good. The same is true to the U.S., U.K., France, Brazil, Egypt, India, EVERYONE.
    My whole point it to recognize the grey in everything. To open our minds to understanding, I don't fully support the actions of The Empire, nor do I fully support the actions of the Nazi, Communist governments, or even my own. Because nobody is perfect and no system of government is perfect. But when we close our eyes and refuse to see things in a different light or from another perspective we get dangerously close to becoming like the Emperor. Interceded in one idea and one philosophy that consumes us and we end up doing more harm than good.
    Just look at the crusades. There were thousands of people who were so strongly entrenched in Christianity, an otherwise peaceful religious teaching, that they couldn't comprehend a different point of view. They then when into the middle east not once but nine times. Being so focused on one thing and one agenda is how politicians and just plain old human being can't work together and get along.
    So don't worry I'm not a Nazi supporter and I do remember our history. (Actually come may I'll have a Bachelors degree in History and Anthropology) I do not support the Nazi government or Neo-Nazi movement. However, I'm not going to ignore the good things the Nazi government did. Yes they committed horrible atrocities that I hope will never happen again, (Even though it already has) but they also did some good that's also worth remembering.
    Might I add that this line of thinking as you seem to be possessed of has already made me personally feel unwelcome in a new community that I wish to participate in further. Now I applaud you for standing up against mass killings and inhuman acts, I stand against those things as well. However, I urge you and others to see the good in everything and not to ignore the bad. For if we focus on one and ignore the other terrible things will transpire. So eyes and mind open so that we may better understand our universe and come together and work to make it a little better each day.
    Last edited by Beard_vs_Geek, Dec 6, 2016
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  14. Strongbow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2014
    star 4


    First off, welcome to the boards. Secondly, I think the reason you are sensing hostility is that it is very clear Lucas intended us to see the Empire as evil. That doesn't mean you can;t "read against the grain" (as my lit professor wife would say), and you wouldn't be the first one to do it, but as discussed above, it DOES require a significant amount of re-interpretation to see them as "good." Yes, Star Wars is a drawn as black and white for the most part (at least the OT). That's part of the milieu of such heroic fantasy. I'd agree that from a more "realistic" point of view, such things exist along a spectrum (though I can't imagine the Empire would EVER be on the "good" side of that). Just like not every Nazi soldier was a an actual Nazi, not every Stormtrooper was a fascist psychopath. But from the STORY point of view, Lucas made the conscious decision to deliberately make the stormtroopers and TIE pilots "faceless enemies."

    In other words, within the context of Star Wars, the Empire is evil. That doesn't mean you can;t complicate in your head.... though the destruction of billions of people on Alderaan seems pretty hard to get past. :)
  15. Lt. Hija Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2015
    star 4
    @Beard_vs_Geek wrote

    Might I add that this line of thinking as you seem to be possessed of has already made me personally feel unwelcome in a new community that I wish to participate in further.

    That was definitely not my intention as I'm also known around here for 'heretic' ideas (e.g. my signature). However, surely you must have been aware that your video was inviting debate and controversy. Let's just say it's an "unorthodox" way to enter a new community.

    You are right about the historic observations you made, but the times we live in have a rather concerning and increasing tendency to (ab)use this "shades of grey" premise, IMHO. Spin-doctors and people with debatable agendas downplay the negative aspects of ideologies and modify facts, so that many things that are outright negative start to appear in some kind of new light.

    And that was the impression I got from your video. Admittedly, the Star Wars Galaxy and its inner workings are mostly conjectural and with just the three OT feature films there simply wasn't enough time to explore the entire political landscape, yet George Lucas was clever enough to put plenty of markers into Star Wars (ANH) to make the audience understand, that the Galactic Empire is evil and not benevolent and a system that should be abolished.

    However, I'm not going to ignore the good things the Nazi government did. Yes they committed horrible atrocities that I hope will never happen again, (Even though it already has) but they also did some good that's also worth remembering.

    I'm not sure this is the right forum for it, but I honestly don't have the faintest idea what that could possibly be. The building of the "Autobahn" had already been a plan by the former democratic government of Germany to jump start the economy. And in the end what truly matters, IMHO, is the outcome of the Third Reich: Millions of people dead or displaced.
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  16. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 6

    Hitler took over the leadership of a nation broken, divided, beaten, demoralized, helpless, and impoverished. In a decade, he made them strong, wealthy, proud, united, and dedicated to a cause. That cause was as close to unspeakable evil as any in living memory, but the qualities were real and admirable in themselves. It's just about impossible to admire them in isolation, though. We can't overlook the death camps and we damn well shouldn't.
  17. Darth Basin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2015
    star 5
    I'm diving right in!

    A strong Empire is better than a weak, corrupt Republic!
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  18. Strongbow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2014
    star 4

    Let us tread with extreme caution here. My mother grew up in Nazi Germany and I can tell you that the nation was not "united." The appearance of unity came at the expense of many marginalized peoples, many of whom were eventually murdered. But yes, authoritarian governments can make the trains run on time and militarism can put lots of people to work.
  19. Talos of Atmora Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2016
    star 4
    It's a shame, really. One can only think of what Germany could have become had Hitler used those qualities for good.

    That being said, the man was an incredibly poor military tactician (which was probably for the best [face_laugh]).
    Last edited by Talos of Atmora, Dec 6, 2016
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  20. Lt. Hija Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2015
    star 4
    @Darth Basin wrote

    A strong Empire is better than a weak, corrupt Republic!

    This is and remains a myth. Just because any news about corruption are systematically oppressed until no one dares to report about corruption any longer, doesn't mean it ceased to exist.
    Nothing illustrates this better what currently happens in Turkey which is becoming a dictatorship under Recep Tayyip Erdogan:

    "A US$100 billion government corruption scandal in 2013 led to the arrests of Erdoğan's close allies, with Erdoğan himself incriminated after a recording was released on social media."
  21. themoth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2015
    star 4
    As a First Order sympathiser, I am offended that people think The Empire was evil!
  22. DARTHLINK Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2005
    star 4
    Let me put it to you this way:

    Adolf Hitler, dictator of Nazi Germany, once established anti-smoking campaigns primarily because he believed it diluted the 'supreme Aryan race'. Not exactly accurate, but hey, good start. Are we about to say he was a good guy because once upon a time he tried to do something that might be helpful in the long run?

    Seriously, how and why is this even a question? Yeah, the Empire may have done some good things but it's overshadowed by all the horrors they've unleashed.

    Let me now boil it down to something simpler: Let's pretend for a moment that you are my slave. I mistreat you on a daily basis -- treat you as a means to an end. I beat you, starve you, make you sleep on the dirt out in the cold. Now let's say that you got sick one day and on a whim, I decide to treat you nicely. I put you in a nice warm bed, spoon feed you warm soup and treat your injuries. Does this excuse all the horrors I've done to you in this example? Hell no.
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  23. Darth Basin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2015
    star 5
    @Lt Hija where would you rather live?

    The Napolean French Empire, a dictatorship? Or Confederate States of America? A slave holding corrupt Republic?

    I pick France.
  24. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 6
    I pick a rebel Alliance that fights against dictatorship and slavery.
  25. Lt. Hija Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2015
    star 4
    @Darth Basin

    Thankfully I'm living in a democratic country, so I don't have to make the choice. ;)

    However, one of the things Napoleon gave his country and citizen was the Napoleonic Code which turned out to be rather influential for the entirety of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Code

    On the other hand his military drafted young men from the various German countries to replenish his Grande Armée (less than half were French) and to fight his war against Russia, in my book that qualifies as some kind of slavery as these young men didn't have a choice.