CT 7 Ways The Empire was Actually Good.

I don't know about you guys but the Stormtroopers had similarities with the Rebels. They were both fighting a horrible war. I defo side with the Rebels over the Empire no question about that but when it all is said and done even Darth Vader himself in charge of legions of Stormtroopers actually betrayed his master after feeling remorse therefore I do see that the Empire has many within its ranks who would easily join the Rebellion if it was in their interests.

The real villain of the Star Wars movie was the Sith Lords of the Emperor who controlled the Galaxy and his personal executioner Darth Vader. Then we have his Imperial Guards who were the elite of the elite and make the Stormtroopers look like pansies.

Look at it like this. Say the Stormtroopers wanted to quell a revolt they would invade and wipe out the resistance and that would be it. Sit down put your feet up and read the paper whereas with the Imperial Guards who knows what they are commanded to do. Torture, assassinations and mind control. Training and fighting 9-5 maybe some sessions with the Emperor or Vader. To top that all off your granted a fiefdom somewhere deep in the Empire maybe give yourself the title of Baron or Count. Not bad not bad at all for a servant of his excellency Emperor Sidious.

 

I kinda hope that Episode VIII adds some world building lines about fringe groups talking about how "the Empire wasn't that bad".

Like on some HoloNet sub-forum.

 

He's not wrong....

"Good is a point of view Anakin"

 

Here's the thing Beard_vs_Geek, we have a great discussion going on another thread about individuals within the Empire who actually have a moral and ethical code... and how prevalent that is... where there might be examples of that shown anywhere in canon. I'm not sure, for reasons stated above, that I can look at the whole, their actions and hold fast on an argument that the entire Empire was good. I applaud the effort to have the conversation though - healthy debate is the key to fun on these boards I find....

As a student of WWII I can see that point of view, and agree that from the standard metrics that we use to measure the relative health of a country and its economy - you definitely can chart forward progress. However the means to achieve them (even before the outbreak of all out war in 1939) were morally and ethically questionable at best. Usually you and I (Sarge) see eye to eye on things - however on this one I think there are significant details that should be outlined for those not as versed....

Well said Strongbow...

 

The Empire was not good and a great example was that they did not go after Jabba the Hutt and instead allowed his spice smuggling activities to go on instead of taking him out on Tatooine. Where were the good Stormtroopers when Darth Vader was torturing Han on Cloud City?

 

They're badass, but not good.

 

Bob the X-Winger

Where were the good Stormtroopers when Darth Vader was torturing Han on Cloud City?



I'm not sure I understand what you're aiming at. They just follow orders - which applies for soldiers all around the world, including those that serve dictatorships and also those *cough* that serve democracies.

If your conscience and moral ethics can't bear it any longer, you either defect (in a dictatorship) or quit the service (in a democracy).

 

I was referring to the Stormtroopers having no investigating powers and trying troopers in a court martial. Obviously this was hardly depicted in a fantasy setting of the Star Wars Universe. The Stormtroopers were being led astray by their commanding officers and the Evil Emperor was unlikely to demote or dishonourable discharge officers from the Stormtroopers. I agree with you on the point of the Stormtroopers follow orders though.

 

It amazes me that people hailing from countries that suffered from militaristic dictatorships (like Brazil) can be pro-Empire.

 

The reason for that BadCane is that they have been brutalized by an oppressor so they only know the way of violence and hate to enforce rule. Very common in post colonial societies.

 

That's a good point. But one would think that people who actually struggled with the problem would have the firm basis to be against it. Human stupidity is indeed without limits.

 

The very existence and the expansion of the First Order represents that notion. But I reckon that the following movies will bring it more to the surface. At the moment it is subtext.

 

empire supporters are probably trump supporters tbh...... awk.

 

It's interesting when you think about it. The empire really doesn't harm civilians at any point in the trilogy, only those associated with the alliance. Alderaan may not have been a military target but it was the home planet to some very powerful rebel leaders.

 

Owen and Beru might disagree.

 

So would the Jawa junk traders.

 

Owen and Beru probably wouldn't give up the whereabouts of Luke and the droids.

They were assisting the rebellion.

 

yeah hitler and the nazis were very organized so they're cool too i guess.

 

But see it does harm civilians. Owen and Beru were civilians and that they have to betray their son or die for not doing so speaks to just how brutal and nasty the Empire is (they probably would have been killed even if they had cooperated, though I read in some book that Vader ordered their deaths personally).

No one is safe basically. I did think Alderaan was picked because not only had it long been suspected to be a haven for Rebels, but now one of its ships has been caught (carrying Alderaan's princess - so this is coming from the top) in a great offense against the Empire. This is justification for them to destroy the entire planet, killing billions of civilians who were not all Rebels. The real reason Alderaan had to be destroyed is because it is still ruled by the Light side of the Force. The Emperor is a Sith and as time goes on he will destroy the Light wherever he finds it. All of these rules and laws and whatever the Empire has are ultimately meaningless. Or as Vader said in some other book: "There is no justice, only power." Your own username (Deal Alterer) speaks to how the rule of law will not protect anyone (laws are just tools to control people, they can be swapped, altered, whatever... because it's not about them but about controlling people). Even if the Empire makes a deal with you, you can't count on anything. They will do whatever their leaders want and kill anyone even slightly related to something in their path.

 

DealAlterer wrote

Owen and Beru probably wouldn't give up the whereabouts of Luke and the droids. They were assisting the rebellion.

Nonsense, at best Owen was protecting his previous investment. I don't believe for one second that Owen would not have fully cooperated, he was alone with his wife in the middle of nowhere facing a squad of stormtroopers bearing weapons.

So he most likely told them that the droids were with his nephew on the south range repairing vaporators (that's where he expected Luke to be), not aware that Luke had actually went to the Jundland Wastes to recover Artoo.

Suffice to say, apparently the Empire's expession of gratitude for his cooperation was his immediate execution.

oncafar wrote

The real reason Alderaan had to be destroyed is because it is still ruled by the Light side of the Force.

I highly doubt that. In Brian Daley's radio drama (declared as a canon source by George Lucas after ROJ) Vader insisted that Tarkin should consult the Emperor before going on with his plan to destroy Alderaan. Vader would have known, had the Emperor compiled a list of "light side" planets, IMHO.

oncafar wrote

I did think Alderaan was picked because not only had it long been suspected to be a haven for Rebels, but now one of its ships has been caught (carrying Alderaan's princess - so this is coming from the top) in a great offense against the Empire.

Exactly, here are some revealing points from the almost final ANH script from January 1, 1976 you may find interesting:

MOTTI
It won’t be long before the Death Star is completely operational, then we will easily be able to destroy a planet or an entire system… possibly even a sun. No doubt there is a plan being built up against us, but it cannot prevail. If we were to destroy every planet that is even suspected of being sympathetic to the Alliance…

TARKIN
The senate would not support the emperor. A move like that would only aid the Rebellion.

(in this version, the Imperial Senate had not been dissolved, yet, so Tarkin was holding back)


D42 INT. MAIN CONTROL ROOM – DEATH STAR

Darth Vader and the regional Governor Moff Tarkin stand before a huge screen that shows a million stars. Admiral Motti and General Tagge are standing with them
.
VADER
She has said nothing.

TAGGE
This solar system she’s from, Alderaan is the hot bed of the rebellion. She doesn’t have to say anything.

MOTTI
We’ve long suspected Alderaan, but linking her to the Alliance settles it. Now that this station is operational I suggest we use it.

 

Neither Owen nor Beru knew about Leia's message, or the fact the droids came from the Tantive IV. As far as they were concerned, they got some droids that the Jawas picked up from some random place.

Of course, neither facts nor innocence matter to the Empire.

 

It is perhaps a weak argument, but I was thinking it makes sense in that even though the Emperor didn't give the nod to destroy Alderaan, the Imperial engine he's created will do these things for him (it is inevitable and set up that way on purpose). So he doesn't have to directly okay every move against the Light; the Empire itself is designed to defeat it. And the people at the top are as ruthless and nasty just about as the Emperor himself (you have to be to get to the top), so they will make these sorts of extreme calls by their natures. Probably few have as much freedom of action as Tarkin though.

But once the Emperor learned of Alderaan's destruction I highly doubt he would have thought much other than "good riddance" (feeling the destruction in the Force probably would have pleased him as well). It sets an example for other similar worlds. I suspect Alderaan is the worst of the worst as far as the Empire is concerned among worlds suspected of being in support of the Alliance.

I also wonder if Tarkin wouldn't have destroyed Alderaan if he thought the Emperor would have a huge problem with that (I mean majorly pissing off the Emperor is not a good career move). The Emperor's plan after the Senate is gone is to use the Death Star to frighten everyone into submission. A demonstration has to be made to get the ball rolling; Tarkin just picked which planet to target. That Alderaan is a core planet also sends the message that core vs. rim makes no difference in this. You're not safe because you're one of the darling worlds.

I'd suspected Vader was sort of not in favor of the destruction of Alderaan (though not strongly opposed perhaps), but I am actually not sure of his position on the Death Star in general. I feel like there is some underlying difference between the Emperor and Vader regarding these superweapons which Vader rarely even hints at. In ANH he calls the Death Star a technological terror insignificant next to the power of the Force. In RO he noted that so far the Death Star has been good at creating problems. It seems that he has some cynical opinions regarding the weapon; though he of course wants to use it on the Rebels so maybe it's just a philosophical issue for him. But I also wonder if it conflicts with his vision of peace and order in the galaxy (though if it does, that's coming from the good in him and perhaps that's reading into him too much).

The Emperor of course likes big powerful things; the bigger and more powerful the better. He didn't learn that size doesn't matter apparently lol.

Thanks for the info.

 

oncafar wrote

I also wonder if Tarkin wouldn't have destroyed Alderaan if he thought the Emperor would have a huge problem with that (I mean majorly pissing off the Emperor is not a good career move).

Undoubtedly the Emperor didn't just authorize the construction of the battle station just to look at it, Alderaan had been suspected to be secretely supporting the Alliance and was - as a matter of fact - the Alliance's center of intelligence activity according to the 1977 Lucas Notes.

Still I understand Vader's concern (in the Radio Drama), that it should have been the Emperor who has the last word.

 

1. Wrong. Lars and Beru were unfortunately not average citizens in the weeks before their deaths. They were in illegal possession of secret plans to be used to destroy the primary military defense mechanism of the Empire. That's high treason, whether they knew it or not.

2. Wrong. Despite Luke's incredibly brief line of "I hate the Empire," his behavior suggested he was totally unharmed by the Empire and didn't really care much at all. He lived his daily life on the moisture farm in a way that clearly suggested the Empire had no negative effect on him. He likely only said that because he perhaps "hated" the concept of the Empire, and/or to go along with what Obi-Wan was saying, because he liked and respected him.