PT A Better Continuity Between Prequels and the Original Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Kyris Cavisek, Nov 13, 2012.

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  1. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Ah, my head is spinning but I do want to concentrate (without circular arguments if possible) about the idea of the Council not knowing Palps is Force-sensitive.

    1. We know Naboo is in the Republic.
    2. We are fairly certain that all children within the Republic are tested for midi and corollary to that, can assume that the Jedi have contacted the parents to discuss taking the child Palps into the Order

    Beyond that is conjecture.

    I *assume* that if the parents say no, baby Palps (wow, what a thought!) was never brought before the Council.
    I would *assume* there were records of his testing, whether on Naboo alone, within the Order's archives, or both
    It is possible if just on Naboo, Palps master found a means of erasing them.
    It is possible that Dooku erased the records within the archives at the same time he deleted Kamino.

    It is therefore within the bounds of possibility that the Order might once have had a means of knowing about Palps sensitivity and it is equally possible that those means were erased by the time it might have done some good.
    kainee likes this.
  2. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    Or can we assume that it is impossible be test literally every child born within the Republic, and that some (Papls) will be inevitably missed?
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  3. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    That sounds logical to me. I find it hard to believe that the Jedi Order would have been able to detect the presence of every Force-sensitive child in the galaxy. And don't forget . . . Naboo is a lot closer to Tatooine than it is to Coruscant.
    kainee likes this.
  4. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Well the method need not be all that complicated.
    All children born in regular hospitals have some quick test run on them, blood type etc. Among them is a midi count. If the number is high enough, then a call is made to the jedi order, informing them that a child with sufficiently high midis have been born.
    Can this be avoided? Probably, have your child at home or with some private doctor or bribe those that perform the tests so that they will not report the correct number.
    This is conjecture to be sure but it fits all avalible evidence and seems reasonable.

    Obvious questions arise, how many calls will the Jedi order get, millions every hour? We are talking about thousands of planets here.
    Perhaps not, if the midi number needed for the Jedi to be interested is high enough to be extremely rare, say one in ten billion.
    Still quite a lot but possibly this could be administrated without collapsing under it's own weight.

    Question number two, if a child is identified and the Jedi send an agent, are the parents given a choice in the matter?
    The movies don't say with total certainty what happens. Qui-Gon did not simply grab Anakin the first chance he got but he never directly asked Shmi for permision either. There is also the fact that he is outside the republic and the normal procedure might not apply there or it is possible that Qui-Gon felt differently about the rules about dealing with parents to force-sensitive children, he was not on the council and was regarded as a bit of a rebel. Bottomline, I don't think one can say with 100% certaintly wheter parents are given a choice or not, it is up for interpretation.
    But what I do think is clear is that the children themselves are not given a choice. Given what is said, it seems that children are taken in at a very young age, far too young for them to make any kind of informed choice in the matter. The follow up question are also interesting, do the jedi do anything with children that have a high count but where the parents say no. Even without training, those with very high midi numbers have certain advantages and can use the Force if only rather crudely. Or what do the jedi do with those that want to leave, either fully trained or half-trained or those that they expell? Letting half-trained Force sensitives run around unsupervised seems a bit risky given what Yoda and Obi-Wan said in ESB.

    Question number three and a bit different, how is the midi count transfered from each generation to the next?
    If one parent has a count of 10 000 and the other has only 2000, do their children get an average of this, in this case 6000?
    Or does the highest number call the shots or the lowest, which is the dominating factor if any?
    Or do they children get a midi count anywhere in between 10 000 and 2000? Can it be higher than any of the parents?
    Or is the number mostly random, two parents with a high count can have a child with a low count and two parents with a low count can have a child with a high count but the odds of a high count is increased if the parents have a high number themselves.
    Of course one can ask how the midi count can even be passed on as midis are a separate life form to the host and are not actually a part of the genetic makeup or DNA of their host organisms. If a Jedi is cloned, will that process clone the midis as well? The Jango clones must have some midis as otherwise they would be dead but equal to Jango?

    So after all this rambling, would the Jedi be aware of Palpatines midi count? It sure is possible. He was born in the republic so these tests would have happened to him. Could a sith master have prevented it? Yes but that assumes that said sith knew that this child would have a high count and thus took precatuions before the child was even born. Is this possible? Again yes but it also depends on the answer to some of my questions.
    If the jedi did know how would that affect their thinking in AotC and RotS? I don't know but it would be interesting.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  5. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Well, who'd've thought it, but I'm quoting "Stoneface."

    Agree.

    As to number of notifications the Jedi receive: who knows? Impossible to tell from the movies alone. Does it make a central database? Again, impossible to know. Jedi "taking" children - see above pages of debate :rolleyes: but I can't see that as a viable option; someone, somewhere, would have had their Senator denounce that and pass a law forbidding such so I say "taking" children is *almost* certainly done with parental consent only.

    What happens to Force-sensitive kids left with their families? No movie evidence either way, but the "weaker" ones in a stable home are probably more "gifted" in life than considered a threat. Strong ones? Unstable family lives? I can speculate only.

    I consider Dooku erasing any info on Palpatine a strong possibility (not probability).
    kainee likes this.
  6. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I think that some of you have too much faith in the Jedi's ability to use the Force. But then many of the fans' views of the Jedi has always struck me as a little too ideal.
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  7. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    I agree with you that a midi count was probably a part of the ’newborn-blood-test-health-package’, but I don’t see why it should be difficult to avoid: in my country the blood test performed on newborns are an offer given to the parents, one which they have every right to decline or partly decline (choosing to have some of the tests performed but not all of them). Also, the answers of the blood tests are highly confidential and cannot legally be handed over to a third party without the parents consent.

    So I think it would be quite easy to avoid the Jedi Order:
    1) The parents can decline having blood tests done.
    2) The parents can decided that since the midi count doesn’t give any information about their child’s health, they can decline that specific test.
    3) The parents can accept the entire blood test package, but not consent to the midi count result being passed on to the Jedi.
    kainee likes this.
  8. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    I don't think it would be very difficult to avoid but Qui-Gon did say that IF Anakin had been born in the republic he WOULD have been idientified much earlier. That suggests that there might not be an option to refuse these tests or to have them be sent to the Jedi. If significant number of people refuse these tests and/or to let the Jedi know of the results then Qui-Gon has no basis for his statement that Anakin would have been detected had he been born in the republic. Sure it MIGHT be possible to refuse the tests but perhaps extremely few do that.

    Consider, the republic apparently thinks it is ok for the jedi to come along and ask if they can take people babies away and the parents will never see their child again. If the republic is ok with that then I don't see that they would have a problem with sending some medical data to the Jedi.

    At some point, the Jedi decided that only very young children are allowed to be trained as Jedi. Since they are obviously far too young to make this choice themselves or even show any signs of Force sensitivity then another method has to be created. The solution seems to be this, a midi-test on newborns will determine if a child is suitable or not. The Jedi can't do this all by themselves, the republic and thus the senate has not only approve but also aid in this project. Most likely the senate feels that having lots of Jedi around is worth this price.
    But one does wonder what bad things happened to make the Jedi have such strict rules in the first place.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor.
    kainee likes this.
  9. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    Even though the infant blood tests-package is an offer there are very few parents who decline – even though it means that they might be offered to have an abortion, the same could be true in the Republic. It may also be possible that the Jedi were held in such high esteem by the people of the Republic that it was considered the highest honour to become one, and parents therefore were not be so dismissive of the idea.

    I find it hard to believe that the Republic would blatantly ignore basic rights such as the protection of personal medical records. If the parents have allowed for the midi-count to be passed on to the Jedi they also accepted that the Jedi might contact them.
  10. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Much as you try to couch your response here with feigned doubt, "revealed, your opinion is" You believe that you know
    what Lucas had in mind. Whatever you believe about the motivations of the characters is added by what is extraneous to the films - it is added by how you perceive the characters.

    You really aren't getting this are you? have not insisted anything is accurate, I am showing exaclty the opposite. There is no accuracy. There can be no accuracy.

    There are a few little clues as to my intent, I wonder how you have missed them;

    From Post #212, in response to

    I said

    In post #215 I stated that

    this, from post #219

    How about this from post #224

    Was there not enough information there, not enough clues that I am arguing not for the certainty of a position I have made clear I do not share, but that there is simply no certainty within the movies?

    Of course they are topic dependent. You understand that the particular logical fallacy you invoked here is with particular regard to evidence vs opinion. That only works where there is a reality to be evidenced. The Star ars universe, let us be blunt here, does not really exist. It is a fiction. There is no reality to test this against. As a fiction, in fact, if one person sees a particular aspect and others do not, then their proposition could perhaps be argued bizarre. If a number of people see the same possible aspect then, given that it is a medium open to interpretation - rather than a reality which has a testable base - then that others view the same aspect implies that it is there to be seen.

    You even implicitly acknowledged this when you said that "Where is the Sith/dark side training supposed to come from? At some point this begins to look like circular reasoning. If the Jedi Council lean toward rejecting Anakin at the outset, or threaten to expel Anakin later, it seems that their understanding of the relative danger differs from your own... in other words, again we have a number of people who see something different from you."

    without, I will add, the least notion of irony.


    There is no right, that's the point. That others see the same possibility means that the story is not so clearly expressed that as you believe that it is. I will repeat that you tacitly accepted this with your own unintentionally ironic response (see above)

    Your argument as to why the Jedi Council would not require the training of all potential Force Sensitives rested, initially, on the lack of danger within the galaxy - that the Sith were thought destroyed. By AOTC there is clearly a powerful Sith Lord meandering somewhere in the Galaxy, powerful enough that the Jedi's powers are weakened. Yet they were willing to throw the tempestuous Anakin Skywalker out of the Jedi Order; the most powerful Force user in the known galaxy; the 'chosen one' in whose hands the Jedi were, apparently, placing their faith. The same Anakin full of fear ("a path to the darkside, that is"). Does that actually make any sense?


    But if force sensitivity is genetically inherited, and force sensitives are not having families, then their genetic lines will dwindle. It is tantamount to killing off the Jedi Order.
  11. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Whoa, I can't believe someone is seriously considering the Jedi younglings being an equivalent of slaves! While the Jedi in the prequels are flawed, they're not evil. There's zero evidence they force anyone (via the parents or not) into the order. Anakin is given choice. Moreover, anyone can leave the Order without any repercussions, unless they turn to the Dark Side, like Dooku.
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  12. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4

    It's not established anywhere that Force sensitivity is "genetically inherited." But, even if it were, you don't know a whole lot about genetics, do you? The leukodystrophies, for example, are a family of genetic diseases that result in the affected individual dying before sexual maturity; how do you think those genes have survived? Homosexuality, to take another (no-clinical) example, has a strong genetic component; how do you think those genes have survived?
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  13. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    You are right, its not established exactly how they come to be. It may not be genetic - in fact Qui-Gon's description of them to Anakin suggests that they may be a form of parasitic 'infection' (of a commensal, or rather mutualistic nature). In fact in some ways that makes more sense than genetics, given the wide range of species that seem 'prone' to it.

    That it is passed on to offspring is implied somewhat by Luke and Leia being strong in the Force because they are Anakin's children.

    I know enough about genetics to know that such as Leukodystrophy is inherited, via recessive or dominant gene combinations. I know enough about history, sociology and genetics to suggest that whatever 'component' genetics plays in homosexuality is tentative in its attribution, and that homosexuality is far more nuanced than to be explicable simply by some genetic 'condition'.

    In fact, if one bothers to think about what these midiclorians are they seem to be a 'scientific' explanation without any scientifically valid explanation.
  14. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Would you care to read my post again? (I am beginning to wonder if people have a problem with reading all of the words in a post)
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Jan 2, 2013
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No, they are not. To insist that they are implies a certain lack of understanding of the concept. And if they were, there would be some outside source saying as much, but there isn't. There is only you.

    Not necessarily. See if you can find the logical problem with the above statement. That aside, the assumption expressed above still does not become more "right" merely by virtue of the alleged number of people making it. That belief is tantamount to saying that majorities are always right, a position which is easily proven to be false.

    Oddly enough, it hasn't turned out that way so far. In fact, since the families that produced the current Jedi are presumably still out there, so are the genetic lines.

    It was established in the first prequel. No, not that one. ROTJ.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Jan 2, 2013
  16. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    This is the second time in a day that someone has accused me of not understanding a topic - while exhibiting gross ignorance of the subject in question. I'll give you some easy reading. Look up Argumentum ad populum on Wikipedia. You will note a sub heading 'exceptions'. Not just me then.

    Your whole use of the fallacy in this context is utterly misplaced , because while it is true to say that x is not true because of popularity, it does not follow that y is, instead true - which is the fundamental basis of your argument. But even if we don't take it that far there is the simple logical error that the argument is used to show how something does not become true because of popularity - which is a complete misnomer within a fiction, where nothing is true.

    So the premise of your argument (that I claim something to be true because of popularity) is unfounded, because what that was never what the argument was.

    Nope. I can see the syntactic error, but not a logical one

    But only you are arguing 'right' or 'truth'. And the you follow that up with a combination of argumentum ad consequentiam and the 'slippery slope' - emotional appeals without any logical connection between the first and second premise.

    Indeed. So this leads to the question....why didn't the Jedi, instead of spending twenty years inactive awaitng the young Skywalkers to grow up collecting together some of those force sensitive citizens who must be knocking around the universe in order to pass on that Force Sensitivity. And, why weren't they inducted into the Jedi? From the same families, no less. But perhaps it is passed by dominant or recessive genes...but then, why did Obi-Wan and Yoda expect Luke and Leia to be Force Sensitive in that case?

    I'm interested to see your justification for describing ROTJ a prequel.
    MrFantastic74 likes this.
  17. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    I agree that Jedi younglings aren't like slaves. But consider, how easy would it be to turn your back on the only life you have known?
    If a jedi youngling, say age ten, aren't happy with becoming a jedi, would it be easy for he or she to leave? They know no life outside the order. They don't know their parents and going back there might not be an option.
    Yes Jedi are allowed to leave but how easy is it to leave the only life you have ever known, to leave behind the only people you really know, esp if you are young?

    And speaking about leaving, the Jedi have rules that ban marrriage and children for members of the order. But if a Jedi says that he has found love and intends to leave and start a familiy, would the Jedi really be fine with that? This rule came about, from what I understand, fear that if a Jedi has a wife and children then there is a much greater risk for them to turn to the dark side. So to prevent that, all such things were banned.
    But if a Jedi leaves the order he or she doesn't leave their powers behind. So this jedi would now be in great danger of turning and the Jedi would just let him/her leave?
    If the Jedi are serious about their rules then it is strange that they would just allow their members to leave, get married and have children when such things are apparently so dangerous.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Jan 3, 2013
  18. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
  19. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    I never said it would be the entire medical record, but a child’s midi-count would (if the Republic ensures basic individual rights like the ones in most democratic countries) still be considered private information and therefore not something that could legally be handed over to a third party without the consent of the parents – if I get my height measured at my doctor she is not allowed to pass on that information either, though it is practically harmless. The rules of confidentiality are very strict. The examples you mention still involves you giving your consent for others to view that specific information, what you suggested (as I understood your post) was the equivalent of the USA stating that to be a US citizen you would have to have a specific blood test done, the result of which would be sent to a specific institution (an insurance company for instance), and if you declined you would lose your citizenship and get kicked out of the country.

    The point I was making was that it wouldn’t be necessary for the Republic to step on people’s basic rights – especially not if people considered it to be an honour to give their child over to the Jedi.
  20. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    No, it wasn't. Luke in ROTJ states that "the Force runs strong in my family." Given the nature of the Force, that doesn't make it genetic; that could just be the "will" of the Force's, no need to call on genetics. In fact, given what we know about Force sensitivity, we know it's unlikely to depend on the individual's genotype; Force sensitivity is largely determined by one's midi-chlorian count, and midi-chlorians are defined as a microscopic lifeform, which means they have their own separate genetic code.
    Last edited by Count Yubnub, Jan 4, 2013
  21. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Hence "strong component." Anyway, good. You realize then that those genes survive despite the fact that individuals with those genes are less likely to have offspring--and that, as such, the notion that something is "genetically inherited" and individuals with those genes are "not having families" does not at all imply that "their genetic lines will dwindle."
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Luke wasn't talking about the will of the Force. The will of the Force hadn't even been invented yet. Why would it be the Force's "will" that all people born into a certain bloodline should automatically have strong Force sensitivity? What if they turn Sith and start unbalancing the Force? Does the Force's opinion change? Leia is said to be guaranteed potential strength in the Force, regardless of whether the Force wishes it or not.

    No, it isn't.

    What a mess. Trying unsuccessfully to get around the fallacious nature of appeals to majority by an imaginary "fiction exclusion" invented at the last minute, only to claim "that was never what the argument was".

    More of the same going around in circles, trying to make your assumptions into a problem with Lucas. If your assumptions are dropped the problem disappears.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Jan 4, 2013
  23. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Wow. I see nothing's changed.
  24. King Terak Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2012
    star 1
    The best answer I could give for the Jedi not collecting force sensitive people is, Jedi numbers were short during the Civil War, it made better sense to attempt to bring balance to the force with the child of Anakin himself, than take a risk with multiple surviving Jedi looking for force sensitive people with the Empire after them.
  25. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    I'm just going to assume that with the whole Republic in consideration, having the qualities of a Jedi is very rare. I also agree that Jedi are held in the utmost respect, and a parent would almost see it as their duty to have their child trained in their ways. Qui-Gon never pushed taking Anakin from his mother. But they both still knew what was best.

    I'm going to say midichlorian count is random, or the will of the Force, if you will. If it was stricly genetic, there wouldn't be any future generations of Jedi due to the "no marrying" thing.
    Last edited by SlashMan, Jan 4, 2013
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