PT A Better Continuity Between Prequels and the Original Trilogy

1) Darth Maul surviving and becoming the "Vader" of the prequel trilogy would've been epic. It would've provided something to look forward to in Episode 2. Everyone would be on the edge of their seats waiting for Obi-Wan to confront Maul once more. Personally, I'm okay with how Lucas dealt with his character. Plus, it shows how convincing Sidious must be if he is able to acquire a new apprentice after the deaths of his old ones.

2) Yes, it would've been a nice backstory for Alderaan and add more weight to the scene in Episode 4 when it is blasted away by the Death Star. But I think George Lucas just wanted to show how large the galaxy was so he created a different planet. Naboo is beautiful and the architecture is different than Alderaan's. The culture of the two planets are very similar, I believe. Both have artistic and civilized cultures along with royalty--- except on Alderaan I believe the next king or queen is inherited as opposed to the queen having to be elected on Naboo. In all honesty, making Alderaan the planet under attack in Episode 1 would have been smarter- and I think George knew this- but he wanted to show how immense the universe is. Plus Alderaan is a colder planet so I doubt the Gungans would've able to live there. ;P

3) Good idea but the different look of her ships(along with many other technology) in the prequels are meant to look that way. All of the beautiful and unique-looking technology/planets/ starships in the prequels represent how great the galaxy was doing under the Republic. Once the Empire engulfed the universe, everything looked darker & more industrialized. Not a lot of personality compared to the attractiveness that the galaxy had when it was under Republic-control. It's a good thought for sure, but Tantive IV doesn't look like a very royal ship.

4) Not really necessary. We can conclude that she was raised in a good household with a good family in the time between Ep.3-4. It would've been better for continuity of course, but less is more in this situation. He's a background character & he gets a nice bit of screen time towards the end of Episode 3.

5) Ahhh nooooo.... Palpatine/Sidious is the mastermind who executes this meticulous plan to cause & continue the war. He should be the puppetmaster, no one else. What would Sidious be doing if he wasn't in control of the Seperatists? Of course, slowly recruiting Anakin to the Sith but he is meant to do more.

6) Yeah, Grievous could've been introduced much better than he was... I'm fine with how Revenge Of The Sith handled his character(most people aren't) but he came out of nowhere in Episode 3. Wish his emergence would've been more clear.

7) Jar Jar doesn't suck. Yes, he slapsticks the movie up from time-to-time but he is needed in TPM. He is just a bumbling, everyday average-being that is surprisingly vital as he brings together two species/communities so that they can overcome evil & take back their planet. If it wasn't for Jar Jar, they would've never found where the Gungans were & Padme would've never realized that Gungans are good people. Jar Jar was nothing spectacular but it made Queen Amidala realize that her people & the Gungans can work & live together.
Anakin is not way too young. It was a gutsy decision to make the future-Vader that young in TPM but it makes his story even more tragic. You truly see Anakin from the beginning of his life to the end.

 

Exactly.

And we all get that Lucas didn't know he was going to make a trilogy for the OT or Vader was the father, Leia the sister, that Obi-Wan was going to be killed off, that he had to recreate Obi-Wan as a frog creature, that the Emperor was going to be a Dark Side user, Owen was Obi-Wan's brother (so why was he so annoyed at his brother?) and how were Owen and Beru's Luke's family at all if they were "Ben's". That last one was not onscreen (but it almost was) then of course the Emperor being Palpatine and he and Vader being Sith (Yet I think everyone accepted for over 20 years that Vader was a Sith regardless of it not being in the movies and that the Emperor was one as well).

I'm afraid we will never agree on this point.

You see this scene as establishing a whole raft of things that I just don't see as being there and you seem to be basing entirely on Lucas' originally stated intentions which like so many things right from the first film all the way through to the last were in a state of flux:



FACT: Padme died after she gave birth to Luke and Leia.

FACT:

LUKE
Leia... do you remember your mother? Your real mother?

LEIA
Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.

LUKE
What do you remember?

LEIA
Just...images, really. Feelings.

Now exactly how we get from one to the other is certainly for us to have these wonderful debates over.

As for the above as I said before I think this totally works:



If you don't then you'll have to come up with something else because the actual explanation is certainly NOT that Padme went with Leia to Alderaan.

Not in the least. The "insane" one is that Padme died but also went to Alderaan with Leia.

 

There is a difference between handling the continuity between sequels set chronologically before an original film to those set chronologically before. In those set afterwards, it is possible to 'reveal' new information that was 'not revealed in the original film' and explain inconsistencies; that is, earlier information can be modified with later revelations. Return of the Jedi does this.

On the other hand, if a sequel is set before the original film, it will not be possible to explain inconsistencies between events and perceptions; we cannot explain inconsistencies in knowledge of events that have (in-universe) not happened yet. Therefore, it is necessary to make sure that the events of the newer film end up leading to the same place as in the earlier film; as shown by this thread, the P.T. fails in several areas to do this.

 

Well frankly, you could take your own advice. You've been on your high horse lately handing out these lectures. We've been discussing continuity in a thread that's specifically about that topic. Don't like it, just move on to another thread.

Not a chance. Obi-Wan & Owen being cagey & protecting Luke from knowing his father is an evil murderer makes perfect sense. If we didn't know any different we'd completely buy that Lucas planned that all along. Bcs people would shield a young boy from that horrible truth. It would be strange for them not to do that. Therefore it's not an inconsistency, not at all. It's a rare instance where an off-screen retcon works perfectly within the story. Leia being Luke's sister only creates minor issues. That they flirted & kissed isn't one of them. It's gross but it's not a problem of logic or a plot inconsistency. They just simply didn't know they were related then. The PT on the other hand creates a whole host of plot issues or bizarre & unlikely coincidences. Leia's memories, the Old Republic standing for 1000 years rather than 1000 generations, 3PO incredibly already having lived with the Lars on their homestead for many years, R2's rockets, Owen barely having met Anakin, Owen never asking him to stay on Tatooine & to not go off on a crusade & not sharing in his ideals, the Death Star taking about 20 years to build even though the 2nd far bigger one was knocked together in a year or 2. The list goes on. Many of them can be hand-waved away but there's no doubt IMO that the PT matches up with the OT quite poorly. What's more, unlike the OT which was written on the fly over just a few years, the PT had 20 years to be meticulously planned out by Lucas. If he wanted to he could've matched them up seamlessly. It was his right to tell the story he wanted, & it's our right to point out the dodgy continuity.

Fair enough, & you know what, I agree with that. I think Lucas should've valued continuity a bit more but at the same time, making the best PT movies should be the no 1 priority. Therefore he was probably right to have the ending he did in RotS. It creates a problem regarding the RotJ scene but having the better more dramatic ending was worth it. Having Padme leave in a ship with Leia to go to Alderaan may have felt anticlimactic. The film would lose some emotional punch. Still, there's nothing wrong with pointing out the issue with the RotJ scene. It's obvious, when you walk through the scenario of Leia as a kid & the timing of when she was brought to the planet as the famous young princess & consider what the Organas would need to tell her, that she can't rationally believe she has memories of her mother. The whole thing falls apart under scrutiny. What's the problem with just admitting that rather than spending pages arguing about it? It created a slight story problem but it was probably worth it. No big deal.

 

Owen knew that about Anakin what Obi-Wan told him. Simple as that.

 

The inconsistencies are there, but the prequels work better as a whole on a symbolic level. The OT you can tell was pretty improvised, eps 1-3 are pretty steadily intertwined, at least with each other.

 

Being on my high horse lately?

I've just come back recently to this forum after being absent for nearly three months. I've only posted two or three times since, and I'm already bothering all of you? Or is it because I speak about the truth?

All I'm saying is: what's the point? Is it because there's a remake of the PT coming that people are going so hard on arguments here? Because, I estimate there are other stuff about Star Wars which are much worth the time discussing about it.

When I'm reading some arguments here, or other places, saying that George Lucas didn't know his own material when making the PT or didn't know or has forgotten what he has done in the OT (some people on the internet even went as far as saying that he has become senile because he's old now... ), I'm sometimes wondering if people really know what they are talking about.

Yes, maybe he decided to go on other directions or has judged that elements he has included before were now less relevant when moving forward in his projects, or decided to modify them or reinterpret them. That always happens, even in the projects I'm working with my team at my job. But I sincerely don't think that he has forgotten what he has done previously or that he didn't know what he was doing, especially for a guy who's very well educated and has a large cultural and intellectual baggage as he demonstrates it in this recent interview on radio with Bill Bradley, three months ago:



People like him can't be so lazy and clumsy as others might think simply because they've noticed two or three things that don't match up. I know these kind of people.

 

No, your post was both off-topic and an attempt to derail or silence the thread.
This thread is about the continuity between the PT and OT and also about continuity within those trilogies.
If such a discussion offends you, don't read it.

Take the "Hater-cave" on the TFA board, that is for people hating on TFA.
If I were to do what you just did, go in there and say "Stop talking about this, you are wasting your time, get a life, there are better things for you to do."
I would at best be asked to leave and at worst I would be considered as baiting or trolling.

[/QUOTE]

You said this before;

This applies to pretty much ALL the discussion that goes on here. None of the threads here are able to cure cancer, solve global warming or the solution to world peace.
So what you are saying is that ALL discussion here is pointless and should cease and we should go away and do something better with our lives.

This is very much getting on a high horse.
And saying to SW fans on and SW fan site, "Get a life"? Seriously?

@Qui-Riv-Brid

Again no, I saw RotJ when I was 13, I didn't even know that there was a novelization until over a decade later. And back in 1983 and over in Sweden, SW news wasn't all that common and I didn't read any magazines likes Starlog or such like. So what Lucas said was not known to me.
So my viewpoint is based ONLY on the film. And to me it is quite clear, Leia remembers her mother, Luke does not. Ergo Leia lived with her mother for a few years and thus Leia remembers something about her but Luke does not.
It is all there in the film.

But you see it differently and we are just going around and around so lets' agree to disagree.

@HevyDevy

Well sort of but I don't fully agree.
The PT had the chance to be more connected true. The OT was written a bit on the fly and many changes came in during the work. What the OT was before ANH was a huge hit and after, many things no doubt changed there. When Lucas got tired of SW and decided to wrap everything up in RotJ. Again more changes.

But I think the PT didn't take full advantage of the fact that Lucas knew he had three films.
Things could have been introduced earlier and possibly worked better. Like Dooku being in TPM and the seps movement could have been established there too. Griev could have been in AotC and been shown as quite formidable instead of a coward that runs away at the first sight of trouble.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I won't further derail this thread. But your last quote in bold above has really pushed me to say that you're being really snooty there and I've kind of hit a nerve! Seriously? You're not being better than me here.

Ok, fine, I'm sorry if I've been a little bit offensive and pretentious lately.

 

SW Saga Fan


Honestly, I did mind a bit that you came off like that but really, a lot of the things you said were kinda true like it or not. You just put it bluntly, In which a lot people don't like it when they here straight up blunt stuff or the truth in their face.

I commend you for being very honest, no harm done to the thread.

We're all adults here, I'm sure we can handle a few blunt conversations here and there

 

No, he was kind of right...

It would have been better if I've just shut my mouth: I've forgotten that there was still a heartstrings in this fandom... That must be due to the fact that I've been away from everything related to Star Wars for quite while now.

But I still remain on my point that it's now pretty useless to put so much energy on all of this: the OT happened, the PT happened, the TFA happened. Is it going to change something? I think the answer is easy... And the choices regarding the making of the movies still remains to the one who are actually working on it, not to their fans...

 

Well as SW fans it can be fun to discuss these things, even in extreme detail. It may seem a bit OTT at times but, that's what being a passionate fan is all about.

 

No worries, no harm done, I got a little heated but it's all good.
Lets' move on.

As for putting energy into something, people enjoy different things. Some delight in debating the minutia of obscure films. Others talk about symbolism, others still talk about old ideas and if they could work or if movies could have been made differently.
Trying to value that against other, possibly more "important" tasks is not likely to go anywhere.

RE: to the idea to remake the PT. I am against that for a whole lot of reasons. Plus I seriously doubt that this will happen in the foreseeable future.
It could and probably would be disrespectful to Lucas and all those that worked on the film.
And it would be slap in the face to those that like or love the film and there are a very great number of those.
And what would be the point really?
Some have argued for a remake of the OT and I am not in favor of that either.
The SW universe is rich enough that you don't need to remake old films.
And no, I don't view TFA as a remake of ANH. Similar yes but it has enough of new elements to make it worthwhile.

Look at me, now I am getting off the topic.

A rather minor thing, in ESB and RotJ, neither Vader not Palpatine ever mention Yoda. Vader is always saying "Obi-Wan has taught you well." Didn't they consider that some other Jedi could be out there and that is why Luke is suddenly is getting more powerful three years after Obi-Wan died?
In the PT, they knew him and Palpatien knew that Yoda survived order 66 and fled the senate building. So how come he doesn't bring him up?
I know that some version of the script had some dialogue about this.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Maybe they assumed him to have died in the interim. Tarkin believed Obi-Wan to be dead before he appeared on the Death Star, so it's possible that Vader and Palpatine though that Yoda had died too, especially considering Yoda's advanced age, and the fact that he actually did die around this time.

 

The RoTJ novelization, at least, had Palpatine bring up Yoda:

"Tell me, young Skywalker," the Emperor said when he saw Luke's first struggle had taken its course. "Who has been involved in your training until now?" The smile was thin, open mouthed, hollow.
Luke was silent. He would reveal nothing.
"Oh, I know it was Obi-Wan Kenobi at first," the wicked ruler continued, rubbing his fingers together as if trying to remember. Then pausing, his lips creased into a sneer. "Of course, we are familiar with the talent Obi-Wan Kenobi had, when it came to training Jedi." He nodded politely in Vader's direction, indicating Obi-Wan's previous star pupil. Vader stood without responding, without moving.
Luke tensed with fury at the Emperor's defamation of Ben - though, of course, to the Emperor it was praise. And he bridled even more, knowing the Emperor was so nearly right. He tried to bring his anger under control though, for it seemed to please the malevolent dictator greatly.
Palpatine noted the emotions on Luke's face and chuckled. "So, in your early training you have followed your father's path, it would seem. But alas - Obi-Wan is now dead, I believe; his elder student, here, saw to that -" again, he made a hand motion toward Vader. "So tell me, young Skywalker - who continued your training?"
That smile, again, like a knife. Luke held silent, struggling to regain his composure.
The Emperor tapped his fingers on the arm of the throne, recalling. "There was one called ... Yoda. An aged Master Jed ... Ah, I see by your countenance I have hit a chord, a resonant chord indeed. Yoda, then."
Luke flushed with anger at himself, now, to have revealed so much, unwillingly, unwittingly. Anger and self-doubt. He strove to calm himself - to see all, to show nothing; only to be.
"This Yoda," the Emperor mused. "Lives he still?"
Luke focused on the emptiness of space beyond the window behind the Emperor's chair. The deep void, where nothing was. Nothing. He filled his mind with this black nothing. Opaque, save for the occasional flickering of starlight that filtered through the ether.
"Ah," cried Emperor Palpatine. "He lives not. Very good, young Skywalker, you almost hid this from me. But you could not. And you can not. Your deepest flickerings are to me apparent. Your nakedest soul. That is my first lesson to you." He beamed.
Luke wilted - but a moment. In the very faltering, he found strength. Thus had Ben and Yoda both instructed him: when you are attacked, fall. Let your opponent's power buffet you as a strong wind topples the grass. In time, he will expend himself, and you will still be upright.
The Emperor watched Luke's face with cunning. "I'm sure Yoda taught you to use the Force with great skill."
The taunt had the desired effect - Luke's face flushed, his muscles flexed.
He saw the Emperor actually lick his lips at the sight of Luke's reaction. Lick his lips and laugh from the bottom of his throat, from the bottom of his soul.
Luke paused, for he saw something else, as well; something he hadn't seen before in the Emperor. Fear.
Luke saw fear in the Emperor - fear of Luke. Fear of Luke's power, fear that this power could be turned on him - on the Emperor - in the same way that Vader had turned it on Obi-Wan Kenobi. Luke saw this fear in the Emperor - and he knew, now, the odds had shifted slightly. He had glimpsed the Emperor's nakedest self.
With sudden absolute calm, Luke stood upright. He stared directly into the malign ruler's hood.
Palpatine said nothing for a few moments, returning the young Jedi's gaze, assessing his strengths and weaknesses. He sat back at last, pleased with this first confrontation. "I look forward to completing your training, young Skywalker. In time, you will call me Master."​

 

A better continuity would be impossible to achieve.

 

I don't see how. Actually by that standard the prequels "explain" all sorts of "failings" of the OT. Tons of them actually.

Which was kind of the point. As Lucas said he gave himself a freedom to not have to explain things in the OT since so many answers were in the "previous" episodes that were missed.

The thing that is really going on is that one must wrap ones head around the fact that the OT is the sequel to the PT.

Once that is accepted it all works out quite well especially fro ROTJ in which Lucas had to at least give some very basic explanations of what was going on.

This whole Leia example is a very salient point for all of this.

We have this divide over fans who want what they interpret at the "proper" story which they think is on the screen and makes sense to them. To others not only does it not work it really is as usual so vague (as Lucas liked to keep things) that it allows all sorts of interpretations which now have been narrowed down due to the prequels.

The interpretation at the time is valid of course because no one knew the full story. It's just not anymore due to the information we know since then which is kind of the whole point as that flows from each movie.

Let's go to the end part:

LUKE Yes. It's you Leia.

LEIA I know. Somehow...I've always known.

Based on the earlier interpretation of straight memory that would explain Leia remembering her mother but not that she's "always known" Luke is her brother.

Now we go to TFA which restates Leia's connection to the Force with family. There is still Light in Kylo Ren, she feels Han's presence and death, she knows that they really have found Luke could be in there as well, she connects to Rey who is connected to Anakin and Luke in the Force at least.

So that she connects to her mother who carries her is not only not a stretch but entirely reasonable.

There really is no other explanation that readily comes to mind or is credible.

 

Things like Obi Wan going by the name 'Ben' since before Luke was born...I don't mind little inconsistencies like this because memories get distorted through the sands of time. Leia remembering her Mother...she could just simply be wrong, or remember some dreams she had as a child, mistaking them for real memories.

Having said that, I'd love to have seen the general events of Eps 2 and 3 go over Eps 1 and 2, then have Episode 3 as an extension of Revenge of the Sith, where Obi Wan is in hiding, going by the name 'Ben', while we see Vader and the origins of the Empire in action. There is definitely a story that could've been told, where Ben Kenobi is using his Jedi moxie to smuggle the 'new hope' child through the galaxy, avoiding Imperials and eventually settling on Tattoine, while we see Vader tracking down other Jedi and the Empire tightening its grip. I'm not a fan of the prequels at all, and I think ROTS was too rushed, and didn't like how everything neatly coincided - Anakin becoming Vader, the end of the Clone Wars, the start of the Empire, the Jedi purge and the birth of the Skywalker twins all taking place almost simultaneously.

 

Makes me think that there should have been another movie trilogy worth of content to fully cover everything.

 

Agreed on the first paragraph.

Although I'm not sure what the second paragraph has to do with continuity, and while I do not envision the ending of RotS being retconned, an Obi-Wan spinoff, if it is truly being considered by Disney, could definitely make an attempt at showing some of these points, which may satisfy fans who had previously imagined that this would be addressed in Episode III. Though my personal preference for such a spinoff would be for it to begin when we last see Obi-Wan in RotS, handing baby Luke to Beru, and end when we first see him in ANH, saving Luke from the Tusken Raiders.

 

Me too. It's a great setting for an 0bi-Wan spin off.

 

It doesn't have anything to do with continuity, I just went off at a tangent

 

Don't worry it's all forgotten now. I also went overboard.

Regarding that, I've said that before and I keep saying it: if you nitpick any movies, not just the Star Wars series, you loose sight of them as a whole. And that's the major problem since, when people keep doing this and keep find inconsistencies, and then they think the continuity between the movies is botched. Yes there are certainly elements on the right or on the left that don't feel right, but they don't affect the whole of the story and the continuity of the series, they are only affecting your perception of the movies.

People easily forget that everything related to Star Wars was developed and built around the original movie from 1977. So the question is to know: does everything need to be explained? For example, in the case of Episode IV: A New Hope, what is the real reason that pushes Obi-Wan/Ben Kenobi to be in exile and keep watching Luke for nearly 20 years on Tatooine, without helping the rest of the galaxy in its most desperate period, while it is his duty, as a Jedi, to help others and the rebellion in its fight against the evil Empire? That question doesn't really have an impact on the screenplay or on the film continuity, since the key in the movie is to follow the beginning of the journey of Luke. Same thing when Leia remembers about his mother. Or when Vader mentions Obi-Wan training Luke instead of mentioning Yoda's name. Does these elements really have an impact when Luke redeems his father in Return of the Jedi, the major plot of the movies, or on the overall story told in all 6 movies? Does it really need to be explained?

Even if the questions seem obviously legitimate, those gray areas are more intended to make our imagination work instead of bringing a sincere and demonstrative response. These gaps in the screenwriting, whether they may appear little to some people, or bigger to others, don't necessarily need to be explained in order that the overall story, or the general idea expressed through the story, holds on.

Besides, with all of this, people also lose sight of the general idea Lucas wanted to expressed through his franchise, which is far more consistent and benefits from a greater continuity with the addition of the prequels to the originals than people might actually think. Those movies are not just tools for entertainment as the majority of big blockbusters are nowadays. Together, they allow people, especially younger generations to view things from another angle, to change and evolve our views regarding the questions of good and evil, regarding society, the world we live in, etc...

Of course, they didn't allow to change our world, but at the moment you start to introduce an idea to someone, it may allow to change things. I'm getting off topic here, but movies and art in general aren't just tools for entertainment or to be dissected. I remember reading somewhere, during an exposition of art in my city, Montreal, that art in general is also a tool to spark a reflection within someone and isn't just meant to seduce the public.

And this (well at least for me), is what makes the continuity between the six previous movies great and beautiful: Lucas succeeded in exposing coherently and in a structured way his ideas and his story through his movies. Those movies don't need a better continuity since they already benefit from a well structured story and based on four basic pillars: a beginning, a development, a climax and an end...

 

Doesn't change the fact that the scenario of when Leia was young, when you walk through it is a mess that really can't work. There's no getting around it. For Leia to believe she has early memories of her mother, which she does according to RotJ, two things have to happen given the events of RotS. One, she needs to have Force induced visions, feelings & images. Two, she needs to mistakenly believe that they are in fact regular memories. That is, rationalize those visions & somehow work out the identity of the person in them & then accept that it's her real mother. That second part is the problem. It can't happen if she knows her mother died in childbirth. If she knows that then the lady in the visions being her mother isn't an option she'd even consider. Unless we're saying she knew she could use the Force already. So then you have to create an absurd scenario where the Organas play a hoax on Leia & pretend her mother was alive for a couple of extra years. Which requires further lies that alot of people would need to be in on. And the problem with that is, there's no reason for them to do that. The only truth they need to keep from Leia is who her parents were. Outside of that they're not going to lie just for the hell of it.
No one can explain how it can all fit together & make sense. Bcs it can't. It's a flawed retcon. It works...until you think about it in detail.

Sure but it's also fine to identify & even criticise continuity flaws. They didn't have to exist. Was it possible for Lucas to construct the PT so that it meshed perfectly with the events & dialogue of the OT? Of course it was. He could've listed all of the references to past events that are mentioned in the OT & made them immovable pillars within the prequel story. He chose not to do that, which is his right. Personally I think he should've placed a higher importance on them. A comparison is Tolkien. He wrote TLOTR & then went back & revised the Hobbit more than once to get both works to correctly align. Lucas had the advantage of writing the prequel story second, so he could've had that backstory perfectly line up if he wanted to. Strangely, Lucas also made changes to the OT that threw the story out of whack further. See the Vader dialogue from ESB as an example. Some writers place an extremely high value on continuity. Seems Lucas is on the lower end of that spectrum.

 

It is not a problem at all. We know the Force can pass on visions, feelings, and even relationships, to a certain extent. Perhaps she had visions and knew Padme was her mother, because that's how the Force worked here. There is no need for rationalization whatsoever.

There's no need for any hoax. The Organas may have just told Leia she was adopted after her mother died. There's no need for us to assume they set an specific timestamp on it. Leia, going off her visions of her mother, just assumed she lived through the first years of her infancy.

There's no contradiction, unless you suddenly decide that this time, on this circumstance, you know exactly how the Force works. And we don't. There are tons of things in the saga that are explained "through the Force". This happens to be another one of them, and it is not even a stretch.

This is not to say other things can't be contradictory. But this specific detail is not, unless you want it to be.