PT A Better Continuity Between Prequels and the Original Trilogy

Sure but it's clear that Leia believes they are normal early memories. She doesn't think she can use the Force at this point. If she did she wouldn't react to Luke saying that she doesn't have that power & could never have. This is the point, she rationally accepts they're normal memories.

Here's where it falls down. For one thing, why would the Organas be vague about the timing of getting Leia? Secondly it'd be almost impossible to keep secret that Leia came to them as a newborn. She's the famous Royal Princess. There'd be all kinds of photos & public records. How about Breha's baby stories? Why would she conceal talk of tiny baby Leia? It comes down to how Leia can think they're regular memories if she was taken in as a newborn. What's more how she can even know the lady in the visions is her mother.

Anyway, we've more than covered this one. Everything's been said.

 

Indeed, she does. That does not rule out what I suggested in the post: she might have had the visions, and, not knowing they were visions, thought they were memories. That was the suggestion all along. She thinks it is a memory, but it is not, it was a vision.

I would assume that the Organas would be awfully vague about anything concerning Leia's parentage, but even if you don't believe that, they may just have never talked about the circumstances of Padme's death. Talking about biological parents when you were raised by adoptive ones can be a very touchy subject, as I am sure you would understand, and it is not something you just discuss around the table every now and then.

There is no sense in assuming her face would be everywhere the moment she was adopted. While it may be true that that's how it works in certain cultures (the most famous recent one being the UK royal family), it isn't how it works in others. I can tell you for sure that 99.99% of my country has no idea of what constitutes my president's family. I know more than most, and all I know is that she has a brother (he was involved in a corruption scandal), a daughter, and probably a couple of grandchildren (I would assume so by her age). A politician's family is not a big deal in some places, so there's no need to assume it would be on Alderaan.

Besides, this is the kind of galaxy that doesn't care one bit about their Senators' personal lives, as one would deduce from Padme's wide open apartment where anyone could film anything.

There are multiple options, and you can choose the one you like most:

(1) Breha never tells a baby story. Did your mother talk about baby-you a lot?

(2) Breha dies when Leia is, let's say, 7, and so she never gets to tell baby stories to fully-developed Leia.

(3) Leia might think Padme was brought on to live with them, and died soon after.

She knows through the Force, she thinks she knows through memory.

If you say so.

 

Defensor so Leia never discovers that she was on Alderaan as a baby? After she "remembers" her mother you'd think she'd then look into it, wondering what happened to her. Clearly as far as Leia is concerned Padme was alive & well even when Leia was a small child. As if Leia wouldn't find out the circumstances. Where did she & her mother live? How did Bail know her? If she can remember her mother why can't she remember coming to Alderaan & meeting the Organas?
This is all highly unlikely. An incredible shaky theory. What's not shaky is how Lucas wrote it in 83. He intended Leia to be talking about actual memories as a very young child. He has said in interviews that her mother died when she was 2. All of this "Force memory" stuff is just the invention of fans to cover up a plothole. Nowhere in the Saga has anyone had Force visions that have fooled them into thinking they lived a different life. When little Annie dreamed of being a Jedi he wasn't tricked into thinking he was one.

 

This is how I always envisioned the PT prior to the release of the Phantom Menace. I actually wrote my own outline back in the day. It went something like this.

Episode I: Obi-Wan discovers Anakin on Tattooine, who is older and already a great pilot, but is very strong with the Force. Owen Lars is mistrustful of the Jedi and tries to convince Anakin to stay on Tattooine but he goes with Obi-Wan. He takes him to Coruscant to train under Yoda but Yoda refuses to train him because he senses danger. Obi-Wan decides to take Anakin as his Padawan. Meanwhile, tensions are escalating in the Republic which leads to the election of a new Chancellor, Senator Palpatine. The Sith reveal themselves but are still in many ways a mystery. The movie ends with the outbreak of the Clone Wars.

Episode II: Anakin and Obi-Wan are renowned heroes fighting side by side in the Clone Wars. Anakin has become a very powerful Jedi Knight. Palpatine slowly centralizes power and transitions the Republic to Empire. Meanwhile, Anakin, has become prideful and feels he is being held back by the Jedi and Obi-Wan. He feels there is more to the Force than what the Jedi will allow him to explore and he has developed anger issues as well. At this point, he is still one of the most highly respected people in the galaxy. He falls in love with and marries Padme. Palpatine sweeps in around this time and makes Anakin his second in command over the entire Army of the Republic. After this, he starts spending much more time with Palpatine and less time with Obi-Wan. Palpatine reveals himself to be the Sith Lord and offers to train Anakin in the ways of the dark side. Anakin, who is incontent with his Jedi abilities is seduced. The Jedi generals, who were faithful to the Republic during the Clone Wars, oppose Palpatine's centralization of power and are declared enemies of the state. Anakin has to make the decision whether to stand with the Jedi or the Republic and chooses the Republic. The movie ends with Anakin being knighted Darth Vader before Palpatine and Palpatine declaring the Clone Wars over and establishment of the Empire before the Senate

Episode III: Darth Vader, who is not yet in the suit, helps the Empire hunt down and murder the Jedi Knights one by one and is brutal. Order 66 still happens, but it isn't as successful and many of the surviving Jedi remain to be hunted down and killed by Vader. He transitions from a respected war hero to somebody everyone fears. Padme leaves Anakin because of the atrocities he has committed. Little does Anakin know, she is pregnant. Obi-Wan learns of what Anakin has done and tries to find him to confront him, which leads him to Mustafar where they have their climactic battle. Obi-Wan attempts to convince Anakin that he has chosen the wrong path but Anakin refuses to turn from the dark side. The battle ends with Obi-Wan hurling Anakin into the lava and leaving him for dead. Following this, Palpatine revives him and he gets the suit. Padme gives birth to the twins, but has to go into hiding after being outspoken against Palpatine in the Senate. Leia is adopted by the Organas and Luke is taken to the Lars homestead on Tattooine. Padme hides on Alderaan where she will be found by the Empire and killed a couple of years later.

 

Reading this outline really helped me understand how some OT fans had envisioned the PT prior to the release of TPM and why they might be picky about continuity issues and the pace of the three films - because when they imagined a backstory they obviously built in all the continuity; in fact, the continuity was exactly what the imagined backstory was built around. It's a solid outline and a compelling story. I guess at the end of the day there's a need to evaluate whether the details that we're familiar with from earlier works in the series are that important over the overall course of the story or whether consciously choosing to integrate new ideas, even ones that possibly don't mesh that well with old ones, can lead to a richer tapestry. It's a tricky balance not to lose the feel of earlier works completely but at the same time also inject new life into an old story.

 

I think you can incorporate elements from both version to produce a better version. You can have both backstories working together. Anakin could been a Han Solo-esque figure working aboard a spice freighter as a navigator with a motley crew. He ran way to be a navigator after his Lar family rescued him and family from slavery. Owen's father marries Anakin's mother thus Owen and Anakin become step brothers. Anakin ran away because the farm life wasn't for him. Unlike Luke we can see Anakin is much more reckless and headstrong. Anakin meets Obi Wan when Obi Wan and his master Qui-Gon are trying to rescue the Queen of a planet( it could be Naboo or Alderaan) and they need an awesome pilot to bypass massive blockade to get to Coruscant or something. Anakin becomes the pilot to take them there. But their ship crash down on Tatooine and the crew manages to make it to the Lar family ranch for a bit of respite. There Anakin meets with up his long lost older step-brother. Owen berates Anakin for getting caught up some kind of ''idealistic crusade'' ie the Clone Wars.

I think you still need the Qui Gon's character for Anakin's fall. One of the reason he fallen to the dark side because he lacked a good father figure in his life. Qui Gon was suppose to be father figure but he was killed. In Qui Gon's vacancy, Palpatine filled in that role and got his crummy hands over him. And he started down the path to the dark side because of that.

Even though Anakin calls Obi Wan his father. It doesn't feel that way. It feels like Obi Wan is more of an older brother figure rather a father figure. Anakin and Obi Wan are suppose to be best friends. It works better if their relationship is more akin to a brother relationship. Rather a Father - Son relationship.
You can still have flashbacks showing of Anakin as a kid and his brutal life under slavery.

 

And people bitch about Luke keeping the surname Skywalker while living in Tatooine being dangerous. It's probably an utterly unremarkable name there.

 

I completely agree. I think the outline shown to us in the OT about what came before could have meshed together better with the story Lucas wanted to tell. It only would have taken a few changes to do and none of the changes would have been major in terms of changing the story of the PT we got.

I agree, the Qui-Gon character was needed. I would have made him have more of a older brother relationship with Obi-Wan much like Anakin and Obi-Wan would later have. In my own alternate PT, it would have been clear that Obi-Wan trained under Yoda, at least initially.

I like the idea of Anakin being the pilot to get them past the blockade. Anakin should have been a well-respected pilot at the time he and Obi-Wan met. Of course, pod racing kind of works, but not as well as him being a starpilot would have.

 

I'd have Anakin older, already a Jedi Knight,but a young one. No age limit thing for training. It's revealed he was discovered as a teenager pilot by Obi-Wan Kenobi, and he felt how strong anakin was in the Force. Rather that allow another Master to train Anakin, Kenobi takes it upon himself to do it. The Jedi Order is more monk-like, but they can kick ass when necessary. The Jedi Council issues orders to the various Jedi throughout the Galaxy, and generally stays out of political affairs. They help where needed,but it's generally up to them to decide where and when they will.

Episode I -Clone Wars already in progress. Alderaan,one of the main systems of the Republic, is blockaded/under attack,which kick off the Wars. The Republic is fighting against the armored legions of the Madalorian army, who are using the outlawed science of cloning to swell their ranks and overwhelm the Republic. In return, The Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, Valorum, has created the first Grand Army of the Republic, calling on volunteers from all over the Galaxy to don the white and black armor and defend the government! On Alderaan, King Bail Organa is in hiding and calls on help from his old friend Kenobi to help liberate his planet. Anakin goes with his Master . While there Anakin encounters Sheev Palpatine, the Senator for Alderaan, and his junior Senator Padme Amidala. Palpatine is desperate to get to the Republic capital of Coruscant to plead for help and Trooper counter-assault. They concoct a plan to get the Senator's off-planet, and are successful. Anakin is completely taken with Padme, amazed as she helps the Jedi in the fight. She's fierce, headstrong, beautiful,and forceful. anakin has never encountered a woman like her before. He WANTS her. But Alderaan has an old-school tradition where higher-class citizens are part of pre-arranged marriages, and Padme already has her suitor.

On Coruscant, the group pleads their case before the Senate, but is met by protests, as many star systems want a de-escalation of the War, and Valorum proves ineffective. Anakin is aghast ,as this is his first real brush with the politics of the Galaxy. Palpatine uses this situation to call for a vote of no-confidence in Valorum. The group is stuck on Coruscant for awhile, where Anakin and Padme get to be a little closer, as a concerned Kenobi tries to council his friend that he can never be with her,due to her pre-arranged marriage. Eventually, Palpatine is elected as the new Supreme Chancellor due to a sympathy vote, as Valorum is impeached, and his first order is that the War WILL escalate,until the Mandalorians are wiped out completely. Simultaneously, Obi-Wan is given the go-ahead from the Council to help in the Alderaan assault, as the Council senses the presence of the Dark Side involved. Anakin is ordered to another system, but he ignores the Council's order,and goes to help his Master and friend, though Kenobi thinks this owes as much to Padme going back as Obi-Wan himself.

Back on Alderaan, the Jedi and Troopers attack,and there's a massive battle in space and on the ground. Eventually, the 2 Jedi,some Troopers, and Padme break off from the rest to liberate the Palace. If they can get to the control room, they can reactivate the planetary shield,effectively stopping the Mandalorian assault. It seems somehow it went down,allowing the Mandalorians to attack the planet in the first place. During their raid, they are suddenly confronted by a black clad figure wielding a double-bladed red lightsaber - Darth Maul! Obi-Wan and Anakin are completely aghast, as he is clearly a Sith, and they went extinct 1,000 years ago! Nevertheless,he attacks,making quick work of the Troopers before engaging the 2 Jedi. During the fight, Padme slips into the control room,and makes a horrible discovery - the shield didn't go down,it was purposely deactivated! She reactivated it, effectively cutting the Mandalorians on the ground off from their support craft in orbit. The lightsaber battle goes similar to what we saw in the movie, but Kenobi gets knocked out at one point. Anakin thinks he may be dead, and becomes enraged,tapping into his anger. Maul senses this,and pushes Anakin's buttons (yes,I'd have him talk), reading his thoughts and realizing he has feelings for the girl who was with them. Maul takes the battle to the control room on purpose, where Anakin finds an unconscious Padme captured by some of the remaining Mandalorians on the ground. When Maul orders them to kill her, Anakin loses it. Fully enraged,he completely taps into the power of the Dark Side. He literally slaughters the Mandalorians with his power as a whirlwind of lightsaber fury, and he pushes Maul to the brink of defeat and death. Only Maul's pushing over a column on top of Padme saves him, as Anakin disengages and uses the Force to stop the pillar while Maul escapes in his ship ( think the end of AOTC). Anakin cradles Padme in his arms, and whn she wakes up,he's so happy to see she'll be alright that he gives in and kisses her. She does not resist, but seems conflicted afterwards.

In the aftermath,we see lots going on - Palpatine orders the Republic Troopers to engagements all over the Galaxy to help win the Clone Wars, while the Jedi Council pledged the Order's help, since the Sith are involved. Obi-Wan recovers,much to Anakin's relief. Bail Organa is reinstated as King, and he promotes Padme to be the full Senator for Alderaan in the Senate. While they are recovering in the palace, Padme is suddenly greeted by her suitor, a young man named Pris Antilles. He was being held captive at one of the concentration camps the Mandalorians set up. He rushes to Padme, hugging and kissing her. while a stoic anakin looks on. And Kenobi sense a change in his old apprentice, not knowing everything that happened. But we're left with the bigger question - who disengaged Alderaan's planetary defense shield,allowing the Mandalorians to invade. And why? The Jedi council speculates that there may be Sith in the Republic itself, a someone on the inside wanted this Wars to begin. someone who would be ... A Phantom Menace.


....I'll post Episode II tomorrow.

 

This isn't a "PT fan remake" thread. I think we already have 2 of those...

 

RE: Yoda, yes he is old but he is well over 850 year old in the PT and he doesn't seem frail or sickly.

RE: Obi-Wan, the PT adds a small issue here. In ANH, Obi-Wan was supposed to be older than the PT have him be. I think he was supposed to be 70 in ANH. Now he is what? In his late 50's?
Obi-Wan is what, late 30's in RotS? Why would anyone assume that he would have died of old age in less than 20 years?
And he had been killed by imperial soldiers, Tarkin would most likely would have heard about it.

The Sith managed to hide under the Jedi's nose for a long while, letting them think they were dead.
Yoda and Obi-Wan are basically pulling the same trick but would Palpatine fall for it? He knows what he and the Sith before him did and how that benefitted them. Why would he assume, with no proof, that Yoda and Obi-Wan are dead?

@Defensor

Well in my country, Sweden, a new prince was born a few days ago and it was all over the news. Despite the fact that the Royal family have no political power to speak of.
Also, unlike Naboo, where they have elected queens, Alderaan have apparently inherited titles as Leia is a Princess in ANH.
So Leia is going to inherit the royal title, I would think that would involve a bit of papper work, files, documents etc. Plus a great deal of attention from the public.
So Bail can't act like nothing happened when he suddenly has a child and heir.

Also, the people in his palace would notice that he suddenly has a child and people gossip so word will spread. And if he tries to shut them up with a royal command, that is likely to make things worse.
The people will get really curious and wonder "Why is he trying to hide this baby girl?" And if this reaches the Empire then bad.

No, Bail knows that he can't keep Leia a secret and he needs to set down facts about her, like for ex her birthday, when they adopted her etc.
What would make sense is that they fudge her age a little, say making her 2-3 months older than what she is. This is small enough not to be quickly noticed by looking at baby Leia. That way if anyone gets suspicious, the official file says she was born while Padme was still pregnant and thus she can't be Padme's daughter. So this difference is small enough to deflect suspicion but not large enough to conflict with her real age.

And since Bail would have no way of knowing that Leia will actually "remember" Padme, he would have no reason to put a very elaborate story in place, that Leia was 2 years old when she came to Alderaan or that her mother lived there for two years.
What he would most likely do is, announce that they have adopted a baby girl, 3 months old, fill in the required papper work and say that she is a war orphan, her parents were killed in the clone war.
This is simple and sensible.

However the problem is fitting this with what Leia "remembers". If she knows that she came to Aldraan as a 3 month baby, she would know that she can't remember her mother.
And has she asked Bail about theses "memories" of her mother? I think she must have. And what did Bail say? If Bail had already told her the story that they took her when she was just months old, she would be confused and puzzled about these "memories" or her mother. If not, what does Bail tell her? Does he stick with the "official" story, that she came here only months old and thus those aren't memories of her mother? If he tells her the truth, about who Padme was etc, then the "memories" would still be confusing to Leia.

Lastly, as I've said, Padme was quite a public person, she was a senator for several years and Leia is also a senator, so odds are good that she would come across a picture of Padme. And since she knows what her mother looks like, she would almost certainly recognize her.
Bail, if he knows about Leia's "memories" would probably realize this and rather than her finding out by accident and blurting something out, it would make sense that he told her the truth. But leaving out Anakin/Vader. But this still gives us a problem, see above.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Just stumbled across this from ROJ:

VADER His lightsaber.

Vader extends a gloved hand toward the Emperor, revealing Luke's
lightsaber. The Emperor takes it.

EMPEROR Ah, yes, a Jedi's weapon. Much like your father's. By now you must know
your father can never be turned from the dark side. So will it be with
you.

That's interesting as it appeared to suggest that Sith - other than turned Jedi - wouldn't be using lightsabers.

 

Not really. Luke would obviously be no Sith, since Palpatine and Vader are the only ones. As such, for Luke to have such a weapon, it could only mean that he has been trained as a Jedi.

It's not a line that says "Jedi have these, Siths don't", it's a line that says "a normal person doesn't have such a weapon, we didn't train you, therefore it must have come from the Jedi".

 

The way I saw that line. It is that Palpatine always had distaste for lightsabers and thought it was beneath him. But still learned out of pure pragmatism.

 

In my own vision of the prequels, Palpatine and Yoda had a duel solely with Force powers and without lightsabers. Yoda and Palpatine were both beyond the need for lightsabers as strong as they were in the Force. While personally I really liked the scene where Palpatine ignites his lightsaber and duels Mace Windu, my vision of the prequels had Palpatine without a lightsaber.

 

But if Palpatine means it like that then the line is both odd and bit redundant.
It is Palpatine saying "You have a lightsaber so you have been training to be a Jedi."
To which Luke would say "Oh is that what I've been doing, I am glad you are here to tell he these things."

I have always took it to mean that he didn't use such weapons, that he was beyond them.

Consider, the lightsaber is called and "Elegant weapon" and "For a more civilized age."
And they were the weapon of Jedi KNIGHTS. What words are often associated with Knights?
Honor, chivalry, courage, loyalty. Are those words that fit the evil and treacherous Sith?
Not to me. So why would evil bad guys like the Sith use such an honorable weapon?
Now you might say "But Vader uses it." True but he is not just a Sith, he is a fallen Jedi Knight, a Black Knight if you will. So he keeps the weapon but changes the blade to reflect his turn to the Dark Side.
But this is just me speculating.

Back to the film, I think the line has a bigger meaning. Palpatine brings up the Jedi and how Luke's lightsaber is a Jedi's weapon, much like his fathers. His father WAS a Jedi but has now turned and Palpatine says that Vader will never be turned back and that Luke will share his fate.
So Palpatine basically says, "Your father was a Jedi but I turned him and made him my slave, you will be no different."
Palpatine also says that he is unarmed and urges Luke to attack him. Sure he could be lying but the sense I got is that he viewed the power he had through the Dark Side was way beyond what a Jedi could have. So a lightsaber was of no use to him, he had weaponized the Force itself.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I think to make a good prequel, the story must remain within the framework established by the original story. For the most part the Star Wars prequels did this, but there are a few continuity issues that detract from the entire saga (many of which have been mentioned in this thread). Lucas was somewhat boxed into a corner since so much of the prequel outline was established in the OT that he didn't have a lot to work with in terms of unexpected twists. He decided to go with "forbidden love", which may or may not have been the best choice.

One of the inherent problems with prequels is making an exciting story since the viewer already knows how its going to end. Going into Episode I, we already knew how things were going to end up by the end of Episode III, we just didn't know how we were going to get there.

 

That hurts my heart, yo.

 

This is how it should have ended.

Padme takes Leia and goes into hiding on Alderaan. She is officially adopted by the Organas to protect her in the event that the Emperor tracks down Padme. That ends up happening around two years later and she is executed for treason by the Empire. The Organas raise her as a princess from that point on.

 

Why would it mean that? Saying something is a jedi's weapon doesn't mean that they won't use or are beyond using it. A gun is a cop's weapon, but criminals use guns too. It may be a jedi's weapon, but stating that it is doesn't mean he won't use it. People took that line and made huge assumptions about it and use it to fulfill anti prequel attitude. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

I don't really like many of the ideas, the PT is fine as is. I don't really like how the PT need to mesh better with the OT. George wanted the OT to mesh better with the PT. This way the OT needed those upgrades and updates. The OT needed to catch up. The OT is only half of the Star Wars nucleus, it's not the actual center that Disney is trying to force it to be. Disney bought the brand, which included 1-6. They behave like they only bought 4-6. The PT is fine, let it be. It doesn't need to parallel the OT in anyway. The PT doesn't need its own Darth Vader, Xwing, Stormtrooper or whatever fans lust for in the OT.

 

That's great. How the story was supposed to end according to Lucas in the 80's.

 

It's an actual clip from the 'Hal9000 fan edits,' by the way. There's other things done in the interest of continuity, but this is the most striking change.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

 

You know, it is very possible to interpret a scene one way WITHOUT some anti-PT or Lucas hating agenda. And accusing people that interpret things differently than you of those things is tiresome.

For your information, I saw RotJ in 83 and I took his lines to mean that he didn't have a lightsaber and he didn't need one. He had weaponized the Force, what need does he have for a weapon?
So this was LONG before the PT and my interpretation has thus zero to do with it.
He said in the film that he was unarmed. And he also mocked Luke's ability.

In all, to me it suggested that he had no lightsaber and saw no need for one.

Disagree? Fine but don't accuse me of coming to this conclusion out some desire to bash Lucas.
I don't much mind that Palpatine had one in RotS because doing an all Force fight could be tricky.
I have a bit of problem with his first fight with Mace and co. And that is mostly that the fight didn't look very good.

Also, a lightsaber is a bit more specific than a gun. In ANH, Obi-Wan called it "This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight." And he said "not as clumsy and random as a blaster" and "An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age." Han also called it "Ancient weapon."

So a lightsaber is not a common weapon, unlike a blaster.

Ex, take a Katana, a Japanese sword. Whom do people most often associate Katanas with? Probably the Samurai.

In closing, as I wrote above, the Sith are evil, treacherous, not to be trusted. Why would they use "A weapon for a more Civilized age"?

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface