PT A Better Continuity Between Prequels and the Original Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Kyris Cavisek, Nov 13, 2012.

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  1. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    This is true, however it was never confirmed that Anakin was the one to bring balanace to the force. The prophecy may be unfullfilled. Force Ghost Obi or Yoda or Ani can tell Luke that the Force remains unbalanced
  2. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    How does the Force remain unbalanced or how is it balanced?
  3. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    If there are two Sith and a thousand Jedi, you have to kill 998 Jedi. lol
  4. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    It's been both OOU and IU confirmed. AOTC VHS for the second, George for the first.
  5. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    True... you got me
  6. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    That was a pretty spiffy IU documentary. As ROTS hadn't been film yet, it transitions from Anakin chopping off Tusken heads to Vader boarding the Tantiive IV. :D
  7. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    The Emperor would have escaped if he hadn't been killed by Vader.

    What I like about the prophecy is that it adds to the twist in Episode III. Those watching Star Wars starting with Episode I (likely to be the norm in the future, especially after the third trilogy is complete), are not going to expect the "Chose One" to join the enemy. That's not what the Chosen Ones do in your standard fantasy tales. Is it a cliche? Totally. But it does make the story more interesting in this case.
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I don't understand. How can the AOTC VHS confirm something IU?
  9. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
  10. King Terak Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2012
    star 1
    The biggest thing for me was the gap in between TPM and AOTC. At the end of TPM, the Neimoidians were being taken into custody and looked liked they were about to lose their trade franchise. Then in AOTC, systems are leaving the Republic and assasination attempts are being made on Amidala, whom is opposing the Military Creation act. All in the beginning of the movie. The time in between AOTC and ROTS isn't as bad, but the war starts at the end of one film only to end in the middle of the next, with just samples of what the Clone Wars were like. Also the great Jedi purge seemed like it took just an evening. I understand that with time restrants, only so much can be shown, but if you're just a casual viewer of the movies and don't bother with the EU stuff (which fills in alot and adds so much to charecters), the PT as a whole feels like a TV Episode recap.
  11. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    I agree. The movies are extremely weak in their depiction of both the war and the purge. It would have been nice if we had been given a sense of the scope of those events without having to use the technique of retconning in the EU to get that sense. I think it's accurate to say that they work as a peice of the puzzle in the overall EU but really fail as films.
  12. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I could use more movie Clone Wars and Purge like I could use more cowbell, but I thought what we got was really great and captured the feel of the events very well. The Battle of Geonosis was fantastic imo and the Order 66 sequences were just devastating.

    Mundi's death in particular and that little kid all "Master Skywalker, what are we going to do?" was very moving.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Dec 13, 2012
    El_Machete12, -NaTaLie- and Samnz like this.
  13. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    The reason why the Clone Wars weren't that prominent in the movies is because they aren't the focus of the story.
    In the OT, the war was much more focused because that was the way the Rebels tried to bring back peace to the galaxy. It was essential.
    In the PT, the war was just one part of the process that led to the loss of democracy. It was a part of Palpatine's plan, his own orchestration. That's just the point: They didn't lose their freedom and democracy because there was an invader who enslaved them thorugh war or something like that. They lost democracy because of their fear. They gave Palpatine more and more power, at first just because they were afraid someone could attack them in the future. So the effects of the war on the Republic were the focus, not the war itself.

    I don't really see how the Jedi Purge wasn't clear enough. We saw the death of at least 4 or 5 Jedi, we saw the attack on the Jedi Temple, we know they were attacked all around the galaxy....why do we need to see that principle for more than 10 minutes?
    Last edited by Samnz, Dec 14, 2012
  14. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    The Purge was clear, however had Anakin been a bit old, they could have kicked off the Clone War in EP I. Had EP II be the "Gettysburg" of the War, and then EP III is conclusion and Order 66
  15. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    Whether the Emperor would escape or not is a moot point; it was understood -at the time of ROTJ - that the rebels had won the war, and that Anakin's redemption was in saving Luke.

    And Anakin doesn't have to be the chosen one in order for his fall to 'surprise' (I'm not sure, with all the foreshadowing, especially his killing of the Tuskens in AOTC, that it is a surprise). If AOTC and the majority of ROTS had shown him as an heroic character, a good friend to Obi-Wan (one that has flourished since TPM) then his turn would be even more dramatic. Think Han betraying and killing the main characters in ROTJ...
  16. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I don't think it was actually necessary to have the "Chosen One" plot point added to the saga. On the other hand, I don't see a reason why it was necessary to avoid it or to delete it altogether in order to make the story . . . "better". II believe that it was never a big deal, one way or the other. In the end, it was up to Lucas on whether he wanted to include it or not. And I don't really see any reason for a major conflict over the topic anyway.
    Last edited by DRush76, Dec 14, 2012
  17. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    It changed the meaning of the end of the saga. Where once we were to believe that the rebels, with the aid of the technologically challenged ewoks, overcame the power of the Empire, and Luke's example helped redeem Anakin - as two separate strands reflecting each other. What the Chosen One did was to explicitly combine two separate, but mirrored, storylines so that the one relies upon the other. Where the original ending allowed for spirit to overcome oppression, the chosen one storyline relies upon a 'superman' to save the galaxy from itself.

    I think that weakens the structure.
  18. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I always assumed that the Rebels' victory wouldn't be enough if the Emperor survived and could've started anew. The Empire was built around him, after all.

    Saving his son's life is not a big deal by itself. It's giving up the Dark Side and sacrificing his own life is why he was redeemed (still, many people had a problem with that considering his past crimes).

    Ask Piett's Hat for example, she watched the prequels first.

    I've said this before, TPM is definitely a missed opportunity in terms of Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship. However, he was actually trying to be a hero for most of AOTC and half of ROTS. Even with the tuskens, he was trying to save his mother.
  19. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I always thought that killing off the Emperor was just as important as defeating the Imperial forces. Without him, it would be very hard for the remaining Imperial fleet to reorganize.

    I think it strengthens it. The rebels defeat the Empire while Luke helps the Chosen One to make the right decision this time around and destroy the Sith.
  20. King Terak Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2012
    star 1
    If the speculation that Darth Plagueis convinced the midichlorians to create Anakin were movie canon, the finale at the end of ROTJ, would have been that much more spectacular.
    Aside from that, what would have changed in the movies if the whole "Chosen One" aspect was left out, besides the reason behind winning the podrace and a few scenes of dialogue?.
  21. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    And still a cultural icon at the time, despite popular "talking points" steeped in a desperate ex post facto revisionist mentality.

    To some people, maybe. Notice there's no explanation forthcoming about how the prophecy supposedly made absolutely no sense. "Didn't see it, didn't happen" has given way to "Didn't like it, didn't make sense". Because, you know, why would Lucas do something that Stoklasa didn't find acceptable? DOES NOT COMPUTE. Oh, and nice use of "absolutely", it really seals the deal. [face_clown]

    Ah hah ha. So what about all those other reasons you mentioned, which largely had nothing to do with him? Having a change of heart, perhaps? Is this a tacit admission that all the prior finding fault was nothing more than odious nonsense?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 15, 2012
  23. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    It makes Anakin's betrayal more poignant. I don't think it was a necessary element to the story but it doesn't hurt it either.
  24. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    For me, I think the biggest problem I have with the RLM reviews in general is that it stifles discussion. Whenever you make a positive post about the prequels on the internet, someone immediately links you to the RLM reviews, as though that perfectly refutes the points you made or in any way is supposed to change your opinion. What's worse, though, is that people have basically stopped elucidating the reasons they don't like the prequels. Instead, they're perfectly content to let Plinkett speak for them. And that, to me, is disheartening. If I want to know what Stoklassa thinks about the Star Wars prequels, I will watch his reviews. But if I'm talking to someone, I want to know what they think about the films. Do they agree or not with Plinkett? And, if so, why?

    It's not so bad on these forums, but on more general ones (say, gaming forums for instance), whenever the prequels come up, I've seen too many instances of people just linking to the RLM reviews as though that's supposed to be the end of discussion.

    You know what the sad part is? The entire root "fault" for Stoklassa's entire argument here can be traced back to his favorite Star Wars film - The Empire Strikes Back. It was that film that turned Vader from "just a weirdo in a suit" into one of the most important characters of the Saga. Because as of ESB, he wasn't just an antagonist for Luke to overcome -- he was Luke's father, Obi-Wan's old friend, and much of the reason Luke became a Jedi, not to mention the Emperor's right hand man. In one fell swoop, Lucas and company suddenly made Vader a much more significant character. Because let's not kid ourselves -- Lucas was never going to have Luke kill his own father.

    And, in fact, ROTJ reflects Vader/Anakin's greater centrality in that that film is essentially his and Luke's. Han and Leia are largely shunted off to the side and it is primarily Luke and Vader who take central stage. But it's more than that, really -- the primary internal conflict of ROTJ is Vader's, not Luke's. Luke comes into the film determined to save his father and is never shown to waver in this belief. It is Anakin/Vader that must come to terms with his actions and choices.

    The sad fact is, Stoklassa is still looking at Star Wars and all the characters as though they are exactly the same as what they were established in ANH. But they're not, and they haven't been for decades. Ironically, what this brings to mind is Shmi's words to Anakin: "But you can't stop the change any more than you can stop the suns from setting."

    He wants Vader to still be "a carry-over from an older era... one of the bad guys that carried out the business of the Empire. He was like a Nazi S.S. officer that would go in with the troops, smash things up, and let you know that the Empire meant business." Yet, as of ESB, this was no longer true -- and especially not with ROTJ. It was ROTJ that made Vader/Anakin central to the plot, that gave him greater depth and showed him to be pathetic but have retained some love and goodness in his heart.

    I also think that Stoklassa looks at the prophecy and sees it entirely too deterministically. Anakin is the "Chosen One" only because the other characters treat him as such. That's the interesting thing about the prophecy -- is that the Sith themselves are responsible for Anakin's existence (either because the Force created him in response to the Sith's actions or because the Sith directly manipulated his birth). But it is Qui-Gon's insistence (and later the Council's) that makes Anakin the Chosen One. Regardless, though, one interesting thing to note is that Anakin himself was never pivotal to Palpatine's plans. Palpatine didn't need him to succeed; Anakin was merely icing on the cake in his takeover of the galaxy.

    And I think the prophecy also says something rather beautiful about human nature. Something that the Harry Potter series also says -- it's not what we are born as, but our choices, that define us. Anakin may have born as the Chosen One, with more midichlorians and potential in the Force than any other, but in the end, this isn't what mattered at all. He didn't defeat Palpatine in an epic duel to death. He picked up and threw him over a railing. In the end, his strength in the Force was utterly irrelevant but, rather, it was his choices that proved pivotal -- his choice to stand against Palpatine was what mattered. I find it poetic and beautiful, personally.
    Valairy Scot and Arawn_Fenn like this.
  25. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    So Mr. Plinkett thinks that helping total strangers as a little boy qualifies as being a jerk? Or trying to save one's mother? Mentor? Wife? Are people taking his reviews seriously? :confused:

    Funny, and I feel that Anakin didn't get enough development, especially in TPM. He's basically more of a secondary character there. In AOTC, he's in one of the two main plotlines. And, arguably, Obi-Wan's investigation that leads to the beginning of the Clone Wars is the more important one. It's not as if Anakin influences those things in any way. It's only in ROTS where his choices come to the forefront, and even there they're in parallel with the fall of Rebpulic and the Jedi Order.

    I think it's the redemption that was the main reason for making the prequels. If Vader wasn't Luke's father or if he was killed without redeeming himself, there would have been no point in the prequels. Maybe you could make one movie about young Obi-Wan's adventures (I think it was part of Lucas's original plan) just to show you what the Jedi and Republic where like and maybe show Obi-Wan's rotten apprentice, but where's the emotional resonance in that? As bad as the fall of the Republic and annihilation of the Jedi Order is, the story is not nearly as tragic without one man's betrayal of everything he'd stood for.

    Good point. Nowhere in the six movies we're told there's only one destiny for everyone. "Always in motion, the future is". Anakin's visions of Padme's death change depending on his actions. Vader and Emperor are both convinced that Luke's destiny is to go to the dark side. The Emperor can predict a lot of things very accurately, but not Vader's change of heart, etc.[/quote]
    Last edited by -NaTaLie-, Dec 15, 2012
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