Lit A Bright Center: The Official Core Worlds Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22, Jan 4, 2013.

  1. darthscott3457 Force Ghost

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    I have a feeling its a monarchy for sure, by the fact, there are nobles, a King united the planet at its founding, and just by the fact that the Core seems to be very aristocratic:D=D=

    Above all the Core worlds are too civilized and advanced for democracies anyway :)

    I could go either way the pro or anti empire thing, the nobles could just as easily could be very libertarian and not like being part of the Empire or on the other hand the Empire could just left them be, since they were an important Core world, and they weren't bothered by it by the change
  2. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Anaxes, Chandrila, Rhinnal, Ralltiir, Alderaan, Corellia, Shawken, Esseles, and a whole host of other Core Worlds would disagree with your idea that democracies aren't among the "advanced" societies in the Core. ;)

    RE: Alsakan, what is the source for it having a king? I wasn't aware of that.

    @blackmyron, @GrandAdmiralJello

    I wouldn't mind starting with Humbarine as well. It is a rather interesting world, plus I wasn't aware that Balmorra and Commenor were originally founded as colonies. One world is very trade oriented, while the other has a storied history of military prowess and technological advancement, so I wonder if they were part of a regional power that Humbarine headed prior to the formation of the Republic?

    --Adm. Nick
  3. darthscott3457 Force Ghost

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    Humbarine is certainly an interesting one, and I agree I am surprised that Sidious would let it be slagged, unless it was an impromptu Grievous maneuver.

    My other thought would be since Humbarine had a sizable planetary navy, Sidious may have wanted to ensure its complete loyalty since without a home they would be more dedicated to the Republic/Empire.

    Another one maybe would be Sidious trying to sell the fact if this could happen to a well defended Core world, it can happen to anyone, so give me more support and increase your military output sort of thing.
  4. darthscott3457 Force Ghost

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    I will confirm when I get home, but I believe its in the Atlas. I think it mentioned a Kingdom uniting the planet after a battle. Its on wookieepedia, but I don't think the reference is right.

    There certainly would be some, but I would disagree with a few of those worlds. Please correct me if I am wrong on these, looking for knowledge on the topic not an argument :)

    Alderaan - Monarch was chosen solely by an aristocratic parliament at least through the Great Wars, and I don't know maybe I have missed something in a book somewhere but the "democratic' elements of their government don't seem to be apparent even though its always listed as one.

    Corellia - Monarchy for most its history, then you got the corporate Dikat which I guess is maybe a hybrid democracy from its description

    Shawken - Was it mentioned some place else? The only reference I have ever seen was in the Book of the Sith where is mentions the "Kings of Shawken" I believe

    Esseles - Only because of the Esselian Empire do I associate them with something non-democratic, though I know they are a democracy in the Imperial era

    Anaxes - I knew this was listed as a democracy, but am I the only one who doesn't think this its quite fitting? Between being heavily associated with the military and being part of the Azure Imperium I would think aristocracy for sure, but again that just my opinion, not saying it is.

    Don't know much about Rhinnal and Ralltiir.

    The trend seems to be that the human planets that are democratic haven't been that way for very long in terms of the timeline, seems to have been a lot of revolutions from 500 BBY to 0 BBY
  5. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    The Core Worlds don't have any uniform style of government. Many are democracies, many are controled by commercial or financial groups, some are autocratic, some are monarchies, etc. And, just like the history of many countries on Earth, they have had various different types of governments at various points in their history. Specific responses to your inquiries below:

    Alderaan- The world's entry in the Essential Atlas and it's entry in Coruscant and the Core Worlds both clearly lay out that Alderaan, at least in modern history, is a democractic world and that the "titles" such as Prince or Princess are merely honorifics that are used out of tradition.

    Corellia- A great example of a world that has had many types of government. It has been a monarchy, controled by an autocratic Dikat, an Imperial governor, a New Republic governor, and by the time of LOTF it has an elected Chief of State.

    Shawken- Per Marvel Star Wars, the world reverted to elected government following the Empire's defeat at Endor and asked the Alliance of Free Planets to help them setup their new elected government.

    Esseles- It was a empire at once, then began to allow it's former worlds independence. It is described as having a parliament and is called a democracy in CATCW. Esseles seems to be similar to the British Empire. Over time, former "dominions" gained independence and it became a consitutional monarchy.

    Anaxes- I actually love that Anaxes is described as a democracy. There is nothing that says a democratic world cannot have strong military traditions or an aristocracy. In fact, I love that Anaxes "breaks" so many conventional molds.

    My point in listing democractic Core Worlds isn't to imply that they are more numerous than any other type, but to further illustrate my point that the Core isn't some boring monolith. It is a varied region with ancient cultures and traditions.

    --Adm. Nick
    Last edited by AdmiralNick22, Jan 15, 2013
  6. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

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    I don't even know very much about many worlds, beyond my research on Wookieepedia and their appearance in games like EaW.
  7. darthscott3457 Force Ghost

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    Couldn't find that Alsakan reference in the Atlas, but I am just so sure I physically read it in a book somewhere and I don't have the reference wookieepeida mentions for the Kingdom of Archais. I wish books had control-F sometimes.

    Thanks for the facts, pretty much what I thought, many are traditionally associated with non-democratic and then democratic in the few hundred years surrounding the "modern" era. Sort of like England or France. Alderaan is always a weird one for me since its associated with democracy so often, thought maybe it has to do more with their role in the founding of the Republic. Good analogy with Esseles. Don't mind the variety at all, I would only expect it with so many worlds. Probably pretty good for the inhabitants of the Galaxy since you can probably find the type of government that's for you.

    On a side note one planetary government I wish they would say more about is Coruscant. I would think it had something at one point in its history, almost seems to me as if its ruled directly by the Senate.
  8. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    Oct 29, 2005
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    According to EGTW, Humbarine was firmly in the "Grand Companies" side of the Alsakan Conflicts. Also, both worlds are on routes connecting with Humbarine - Commenor itself a very important hub in the old Republic, apparently. Yet by the Clone Wars, Balmorra is no longer under their control.

    I wonder about what industries they were involved in. Not shipbuilding (at least on a major scale); I'm guessing by Sidious throwing the sector to the CIS it wasn't considered vital to future Imperial interests.
  9. darthscott3457 Force Ghost

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    That could be true too, or he knew, if Humbarine had any sort of strategic importance, it could have been re-settled relatively quickly, at least as soon as things cooled down a bit
  10. Impish Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2006
    Hi (by the way this is my first post in aages, which is why i say "hi"), On Alsakan, I like to think it's rivalry with Coruscant is more like that of ancient rivals, rivals so ancient that their culture and philosophy are actually very much the same. With so many relations between the two worlds, due to the multitude of wars, and their proximity to each other, by the time of the movies, Alsakan is content as part of the "core" culture that is centered on Coruscant, and would there for be politically Core-faction during the old republic, and pro-empire during the Empire. I also like to think that during the Imperial days Alsakan likes to highlight it's importance in the Empire by inflating the importance of Alsakanians with high command, calling themselves "pioneers of the new order" or something like that. This relationship therefore highlights Corellias uniqueness as a core world that doesn't like galactic dominance being in the core.
    Last edited by Impish, Jan 15, 2013
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  11. Parnesius Jedi Grand Master

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    Humbarine was apparently a significant warship builder back in the Tionese War, so I suppose it's possible they were still building their own battleships by the Clone Wars.

    (Tangent: if not built locally, how were the superships lacking full hyperdrive capacity delivered to their buyers? Did they use hyperdrive sleds or tugs?)

    That said, given the Humbarine Sector's only peers in industry, the Kuat and Corellian Sectors, housed the two biggest shipyards in the galaxy, maybe it would be preferable if Humbarine was doing something different.

    Toasters. 86% of the galaxy's toasters were manufactured on Humbarine. And false teeth.
  12. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Oct 23, 2004
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    Really slowly? :D Plus those seem to all be kept in the Core anyway since they are just for show.

    Comlinks and Credit Chips! :p
    Last edited by Gorefiend, Jan 16, 2013
  13. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    I would prefer to learn that Humbarine focused on industry other than shipbuilding, especially since the Core is already chalk full of shipbuilders. It would be fun to retcon that Humbarine was the main producer of some unique or rare commodity that warranted Grevious to BDZ the surface. Maybe key hyperdrive components or the designer of turbolaser systems? Or, given how "rare" proton torpedoes and other munitions are supposed to be, perhaps it was a major producer of these types of systems?

    As for Humbarine being an Imperial fortress world, we really don't know if it was ever rebuilt or not. It could simply be that the Empire maintain a large force in the system because it was on the nexus of key hyperspace routes into the Core, or because the systems other planets contained key military installations.

    Another ancient Republic world I would love to see more about in Perlemia. It was a huge Republic world until it was ravaged by Tionese pressure bombs. I wonder whatever became of the world?

    --Adm. Nick
  14. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    I feel bad about not participating in this thread more fully. I'd like to do some more research on Humbarine but I've been horrendously busy and apparently wasting my essay-style posts on other threads here. Oops. :p

    I still have to respond to a bunch of the original posts. At some point.

    Much of the New Order was about doing away with the old -- it was very much a proletarian, revolutionary movement. Though you did see the youth of some highly placed families involved in COMPNOR, I really can't see Coruscant's rival supporting a movement that made Coruscant the ultimate monument of Imperial glory. As Nick is often keen to remind us, not all pro-Core sentiments mean pro-Empire sentiments.
    AdmiralNick22 likes this.
  15. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    Humbarine not being a shipbuilder in the modern era is mostly circumstantial - that if they were, it's doubtful they would've bought a Mandator (if for national pride if nothing else). Humbarine's shipyards may have been abandoned for more profitable ventures, much like Kuat apparently went from trade to shipbuilding.

    As far as the "fortress world" goes, the definition from the old DESB would imply a self-sufficiency at some level.
  16. Parnesius Jedi Grand Master

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    My own mental image of the surface - at least in the early Imperial era - is of massive defensive emplacements, shield generators, hangars and so forth rising starkly out of what is otherwise utter urban destruction stretching to the horizon, with similarly massive construction droids occasionally trundling past, cutting swathes through the debris, and a constant stream of cargo ships and starfighters shuttling through the atmosphere.

    I'm not sure that the hyperspace route nexus explanation completely squares with the maps. Humbarine sits athwart the Trellen Trade Route and that seems to be it. On the other hand, said Trade Route does have some oddities to it. Though comparatively short it passes through or near at least two nebulae known to be the very dickens to navigate (at least, I think that was said about the Ghost Nebula) and its rimward terminus (Kashyyyk) is home to the Claatuvac Guild, guardians of numerous valuable hyperspace routes. Perhaps the Slice, or at least part thereof, is less easily navigable and more reliant on local pilots than it appears at first glance. Maybe Humbarine is a vital gateway to the Core Worlds.
  17. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    More of at the time - the historical map from EGTW, for instance, prior to the discovery of Kashyyyk. The trade route passed from Trellen through Humbarine, Commenor, and on to Manaan. In modern times, Humbarine appeared more significant as an industrial powerhouse than a major trade world.
  18. Mechalich Force Ghost

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    I once speculated that a complete Base Delta Zero, one that really did liquify the crust, would vaporize all most all the developed materials on a planet's surface into the atmosphere, but they would then cool and precipitate out, in potentially a very controlled fashion, making them rather easy to harvest. So the act of scavenging Humarine would be a major industrial enterprise in its own right (and there are precedents, the Hoth stage in TOR involves a substantial ground campaign for the sole purpose of salvaging ships grounded there from a previous major fleet battle) which could justify a major military presence.
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    If it was liquified, wouldn't most of the materials be liquid, rather than vapour?

    That said I've always been doubtful about them actually being able to do that with less than a huge fleet over a long period.
  20. Mechalich Force Ghost

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    I've always looked at this very geologically. 'Liquify the crust' means superheating the entire outer layer of the planets surface that it has been converted into a fluid state similar to that of the mantle. such an excessive amount of heating would have a very good chance of reaching the vaporization point of quite a few materials resting above the bedrock layer.

    And in the case of Humbarine, there's no reason to think that Grievous didn't have a huge fleet and a relatively long period of time.
  21. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    I had forgotten that Humbarine was one of the Core Worlds that bought a Mandator dreadnought. That does seem to point to the fact that Humbarine was no longer in shipbuilding. The real question about Humbarine is what sort of bombardment did the world suffer? Was it a Taris level bombardment that just left the surface in ruins? Or a true BDZ that literally liquified the surface and burned off the atmosphere? I wish that the EGTW dropped a few more concrete hints about Humbarine besides the fact that it was an apparent Imperial fortress world.

    --Adm. Nick
  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Weren't there supposed to have been over a thousand of those Recusant-class ships at the Battle of Coruscant? And with the TCW vehicles book- they're described as quite big and powerful- longer than Venators and comparable in combat power.

    Still, a planetary crust is probably on the order of 10 km thick (might be more if it's mostly continental-type rather than ocean floor type).

    Just how much Tibanna gas can a ship carry anyway- can it sustain continuous fire at maximum mechanical rate (guns can only fire so fast) for days on end without running out- would would the fleet need to be regularly supplied with extra gas?

    EDIT: SWTC puts the minimum energy to melt a planet to a depth of 1 metre as 1.7 E24 Joules. So, to a depth of 10 km would be on the order of 1.7 E28 Joules (before you take into account things like energy wastage)

    Wookieepedia gives the peak power of a Recusant as 7.73 E23 watts (1 watt = 1 joule per second)

    Assuming all that power can be channelled continuously as turbolaser fire, 1 Recusant would take 21992 seconds to deliver that much energy- 6.1 hours.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jan 22, 2013
  23. darthscott3457 Force Ghost

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    I would say it was the latter:

    per ICS Episode III, "These included the hour-long orbital bombardment that depopulated and melted the crust of the former city-planet of Humbarine.."

    Yes, again per ICS a few dozen battleships and thousands of destroyers and frigates. Then there were at least a 1,000 Venators left in the Republic fleet around Coruscant even after much of the fleet was destroyed in the initial attack per the Venator's Starships and Vehicles collection info.

    I don't think anything precludes a fleet being there during the bombardment of Humbarine, though I firmly believe a large enough capital ship can do the job on its own in relatively quick order. I believe nothing else precludes the fact that in addition to turbolasers, that bombs, missiles, or other types of ordinance could have been used in the bombardment as well. There were a myriad of bombs (baradium, anti-matter, planet cracking missles are also mentioned it EGTW, etc...) or other superweapons (relativistic railguns, possibly a hyperspace projectile, etc...) that could devastate the surface of a planet or out right destroy it era's previous to the Clone Wars.
  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Peak power for a Providence-class ship is given as on the order of 1.08 E24 watts.

    If it is possible for a warship to deliver an amount of energy comparable to its reactor power- we're looking at 3.89 E27 joules- enough to melt crust to a depth of over a kilometre.

    That's if you take the power figures in the ICS books seriously.
  25. darthscott3457 Force Ghost

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    Again there are many ways to devastate a world and reasons for why only one ship can do it, but I don't think this is the proper place for another BDZ argument. Instead lets celebrate and discuss the ancient, civilized, and highly advanced Core worlds.

    I was hoping for EGTW to explain Humbarine as well. Did it even get a mentioned in the book after the Clone Wars era? If my memory serves me right it was just on a single map wasn't it?