A call for a Conservative revolt against the GOP

The Republican Party is no longer the party of Conservatism.

It is not the party of fiscal responsibility, limited government, and minimal intrusion in personal life.

It has become a bastion for the Religious Right, Neo-Conservative and Executive Activists, a place for them to push their bad policy.

It has become the death of our country.

At home, the Religious Right pushes for limits on what one can do in the privacy of one's home, as well as the privacy in the office of one's doctor. It pushes for the theocratization of school curriculums, hiding behind pseudo-science in order to advance and agenda. Personal freedom means nothing to these people, or those in Washington (or various State Houses) who follow their marching orders.

These are not Conservative values.

Overseas, Neo-Cons have pushed us into a war that is hemorrhaging billions of tax dollars with little to show for it. We were promised that Iraq would be able to finance its own reconstruction, and we have been sorely screwed on that one. We were promised WMDs, and we were sorely screwed on that one too. We were promised freedom and democracy in Iraq, led by a strong, unified National government. Needless to say, we're being screwed on those as well. If not for the heroic efforts of our Armed Forces, we would have long ago succumbed to the ineptitude of the Civilian "leadership" in the Pentagon. We also see the Neo-Con failure in dealing with Iran. While rejecting the Russian plan to enrich Uranium in Russia for Iranian power plants, the Neo-Cons give this and more to India (while saying no thanks to Pakistan). They are trying to use the United States Armed Forces to enact social policy around the world.

These are not Conservative values.

In our Federal government, Executive Activists are pushing the boundaries of the law in order to draw more and more power into the Oval Office, and the Republican majority in the Legislature is letting it happen, at the expense of the States. Never before have we seen this, where the Legislative branch, regardless of party affiliation, has let the Executive usurp so much of its power. All this in the name of Party unity. And we see, in the Legislature, a massive amount of money going into pork-barrel projects. So much for being the party of fiscal responsibility.

These are not Conservative values.

Those of us who are true Conservatives need to look at the upcoming election as ask ourselves, "Do these people truly believe in limited government, fiscal responsibility, and personal freedoms? And will they stand up to the Religious Right, Neo-Conservatives and Executive Activists?"

These are important questions. If we do not stand up to these groups, they will slowly destroy Conservatism, and then this country.

EDIT: Forgot this last part.

Am I wrong? Are these truly Conservative values? Or have these values changed? Is Conservatism now the realm of Kristol rather than Burke?

Am I right? Is the Republican Party no longer Conservative? Should it just be left as such? Shuld Conservatives form a new party? Join the other side?




You ungrateful, metal pansy!

 

You have been around long enough to realize the problems that exist with a thread like this. What exactly do you want to discuss?

See, the problem with rant threads in general is that they start from a preconceived notion, and don't allow any room for real discussion. Realistically, all they do is break down into back and forth bickering.

Could this be moved into the 2008 elections thread as a stand alone post?

 

Sorry, there was a portion I forgot to copy/paste from Word dealing with what I'm looking to discuss. Editting now.





You ungrateful, metal pansy!

 

Oh c'mon Mr44...we need a good ole fashioned Republican bash thread!

Since someone may accuse you of being biased for questioning the validity of this thread, I'm going to go ahead and do that now to get it out of the way.

Seriously though, I'd be interested in discussing the conflicts within the Republican party in a reasonable, meaningful manner. I promise to keep my wisecracks to a minimum.

 

For true conservatives, Bill Clinton sure seemed like one of the best Presidents we've ever had in hindsight, no? Controlled spending, balanced budgets, roaring economy, welfare reform, reduction in the rate of government growth, all sorts of stuff the conservies love.

The Bush Presidency is unraveling and will continue to do so. The only thing to save Bush's legacy is catching Bin Laden. If he catches him, and no major violence on our soil happens afterwards, well, American tackle football, touchdown.

 

Even though as a former Republican myself, I can understand the complaints, but I do agree that this thread is inadequate for Senate Floor discussion.

There are other threads - involving election cycles and whatnot - that such issues can be addressed without an entire thread devoted to the bashing of the Republican Party within the United States.

 

But this thread isn't about the election, per se, it is about the party.



You ungrateful, metal pansy!

 

Clickie

 

Ah, but therein lies the rub. Relating to strictly board issues, a great deal (and I mean MANY) people have told us that the number one problem with the Senate is that discussion is stifled by people simply "yelling" their ideas. That partisanship has taken over everything in an "us vs them mentality."

Ok, fine, how do we address this though? There are certainly ways to discuss politics without shutting people down. (and I'm not saying that this thread is an automatic example of this)

Relating to the topic of the thread, how much of this feeling is related to the normal cycle of administrations? After 8 years, people usually seem to grow tired of the incumbant, and want a change. That's why we have term limits, and why the possibility of limiting the President to a single 6 year term (or similiar debates) always seem to develop around election time.

 

I too feel that the republican party has been hijacked by the religious right. But Democrats too have been hijacked by extreme left wingers. The two, I feel, no longer work for the better good of America, but work just to do the opposite of what the other party wants.

The Federal government should have very limited power, more should be left to the states.
Others should not tell us what we can and can't do with our own lifes and in the privacy of our homes.
An amendment outlawing gay marriage should not be written into the US consitituion, but left up to the states to decide for themselves. (I personally believe marriage should be a religious thing and have nothing to do with the states. So if queers want to make their own religion to get married, I believe they should, I don't agree with them, but they are people too).
Abortion laws should be left for the states to decide, not congress or the Suprem Court.

 

But Democrats too have been hijacked by extreme left wingers.

Nah. If they were, they'd be working harder on actually liberalizing the country. Right now they're pretty much just Republican-lite.

 

I say give Jifty his chance with this thread. He's a registered Republican (last I remember) and he has a fairly good political studies background. So this isn't a bashing thread like say...if someone posted, "Democrats are doo-doo heads! LOL!!!1" Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

As an outsider and supporter of the UK Conservative Party, I'll say that I don't think Conservatives should split from the Republican Party, but rather, they should RECLAIM it from the neo-cons. The UK Conservative Party has never been afraid to re-invent itself every generation or so and thats whats kept it going all these Centuries. In my view, Conservatives should stay and begin the process of re-inventing the GOP, rather than forming a new party.

 

Agreed. If anyone should be forming a new party it should be the religious fundies. Them doing so, however, would show how few they really are and that they don't really speak for the entire conservative base.

Personally I'm a moderate, and would vote republican if they actually stood for the values they claimed to in the past. However, when it's the republican party that's passing laws tearing down the separation of church and state, legislating what people can and cannot do in their own bedrooms, etc... There's no way I'm going to support them.

 

I say give Jifty his chance with this thread.

Well, the thread wasn't going be locked, but that's why I asked what he had in mind, and it turned out the question part of this thread was chopped off when he exported it from Word. No big deal.

At any rate, let's just keep the discussion aspect in mind, rather than resorting to what FID described as the "doodoo head syndrome..."

 

Yes its really interesting isn't it. True Conservatives should believe in the individual's right to do whatever they want without interferance of the State. To a true Conservative, the whole concept of The State should be smaller government and to allow people to go about their buisness in whatever way they see fit. Traditionally in Western democracies, it was The Left that tried to control society, through various increase's of State Control over the individual and the Right that was all about setting society free from the State. Whats happening in the US right now seems, from an outsider, to be the opposite of that.

In the UK, bizzarely, the opposite is happening. The Tory Party here is becoming more and more like the governing Labour Party (but only after they became like a Tory-Lite party, in the Mid 90's) Really strange times.

 

May I suggest a change in the thread title to:

The state of the GOP

It would reflect a better tone for the conversation here. The current title seems as a license to make simple statements of philosophical disagreement without getting into any substantive discourse.

It could serve as an alternative analysis to the The state of the Democratic Party thread.

 

Pat Robertson threatened to do so if Bush didn't support Israel.

 

Yeah, I must concur with JKH, Confederate. I'm sorry, the idea that there's an active extreme left, much less within Democratic ranks, is just absurd. Not only would you not know an extreme left if it came up to you in it's dreadlocked, emaciated glory and asked for your change, your nominally left party has spent a great deal of time haggling away it's ideological core to the point where it doesn't know what it stands for anymore.

As a member of the Liberal Party here, which is the conservative party (and shelve any comments on etymological, o literal minded ones, before you unleash them), I find myself uncomfortable with the idea that they're the party ostensibly with my ideals.

E_S

 

Of course, frame of reference applies, E_S.

He was referring to the far-left in American political terms, which is really all that is relevant here. If you're referring to the irrelevant global standards, then you'd be correct.

 

I think you have to realize, J_F_T, that the meaning of the word conservative has changed. (or maybe it's always been like this)

Dictionary.com defines conservative as:

Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.

Technically, what the Republican Party stands for is conservative, that is, just being against change and progress, which inevitabely leads to bad things such as being against personal liberty and freedom, IMHO.

I think it's time to stop calling yourself a "true conservative" and just admitt you are a liberal by today's standards.

 

What makes them far left, DM? The Democrats have lost their sense of identity, which is why I said what I said (in part). It's not the same party of Truman or Kennedy; since the 60's, it's drifted and compromised it's political core in order to appease the growing far right's clout.

E_S

 

The Democratic Party as a whole isn't 'far-left', E_S, but divided. You are correct that they've lost their identity, because they are so fractured.

They are in a proverbial tug-of-war with themselves, and they must decide which sphere of influence will dominate Party policy.

The 'far-left' of the Democrat Party has a great deal of influence, and it is one of the major reasons they are continuing to be in minority status despite the GOP's ineptitude and bumbling. 'Far-left' in American politic consists of the usual American bashing or self-loathing (the Howard Dean, Michael Moore, Al Franken, Air America Radio, Cindy Sheehan type crowd), and other various agenda including legalization of drugs, full gay marriage recognition, unrestricted abortion even up until birth, complete secularization, tax hikes, income redistribution, and various other agenda.

If the Party of JFK still existed, then it would probably be in power right now.

The rise of the 'far-right' is in response to the past 40 years of the effects of the far-left upon society (via court rulings, the entertainment industry, and other various societal influences). It is somewhat of a backlash to the secularization of society and the decline of societal standards.

I would hope that Democrats like Mark Warner and others gain more power within the Party versus individuals like Ted Kennedy, Schumer, and Feingold.

 

We discussed this before, so I shall bring it up shortly and then be done with it, but what you want, DM, is basically 'Republican-lite' Democrats. That's not another party they're the same thing as the GOP.

 

Shredder

That's the definition of social conservatism, not political conservatism.

Common misconception.




You ungrateful, metal pansy!