ST A Call For Civility From A Fellow Poster

I don’t understand what you’re getting at specifically. These complaints read as so vague to me that there’s no way to address them. At the end of the day, it all sounds like complaining about complaining without solutions. You can’t change people’s desire to complain. You can’t force change to people’s opinions. You can’t change how long someone wants to talk about how they feel about the movie. You also can’t broad brush people that are venting as people being unopen to facts. This is a film subject to interpretation, and I think that I’ve seen some of what you consider to be “facts” that I see as nothing more than your interpretation that you think trumps someone else’s interpretation.

This is a discussion board, not a fan club. If you’re openly complaining that there’s too much dissent and you openly think the scales here should be tipped in favor of liking the film, such that when it tips too far the other way, people should be silenced for being “toxic,” then I think you’re really just asking for this to be turned into a fan club. In an open discussion, sometimes sentiment will shift negative. That’s not a guarantee either way. After TFA, I felt the sentiment was positive. It just honestly reflects the posters at the time. Right now, TLJ is divisive among SW fans. That’s reflected all over the internet and of course it’s reflected here too. It feels like some of you want a reddit type atmosphere, where any negative opinion is downvoted into disappearing.

 

But I really don't think that's the case. I think the tone of this board has become so toxic that those who enjoy talking about the film, it's hangups as well as its merits are leaving the board in droves because this is not a pleasant place that devolves into a lot of ugliness. It's not a negative place because the film was bad. That is simply excusing poor behavior and pretending that this board doesn't have some significant problems.

It's a toxic environment because of behavior around here. No one is looking for it to be turned into fanclub. But right now it's just an echo chamber of infighting and backbiting around here.

 

I'm not complaining.

But you've described almost verbatim what I've been warned about in the past. e.g. "yes we know you love the movie. Can you stop replying to every negatively critical post with counter arguments and just let people vent...."

It's just amusing to me that it's considered unrealistic to inform people that they don't need to repeat the exact same umconstructive sentiment over and over again if they don't like other people’s constructive, positive criticism.

Nobody is doing that though.

 

Yes, saying that there is too much negative sentiment and it should stop or be expressed differently is complaining about negative sentiment, unless the definition of “complain” has changed.

The DM that you received was not about your positive sentiment, but about you replying to everyone that expressed a different opinion than you. If that’s your complaint, specify that, because I got that from none of what you said. I definitely agree that people shouldn’t quote every poster in a thread to argue with every opinion they disagree with one-on-one, on either side.

Well that’s how it comes across to me.

 

Nobody said that either. We're talking about how often a sentiment, e.g. "Because LFL have made such a mess of things..." or "....because fans feel they are entitled and don't get it..." deserves repeating. It often becomes apparent that this is done just to antagonise others. And it's uncivil.

I don't agree that there's a limit to how many posts you can reply to. Just how you reply.

 

You know, I used to post quite regularly on the Star Wars Facebook page. Now that is a den of toxicity. There are people on there legit hoping that JJ, RJ and KK get cancer and die. I have yet to see anything on these boards that has reached that level and if there has been the mods have taken action.

I'll stick to these boards.

 

Actually, it sounds like you were complaining about the specific moderation of the sanctuary thread’s topicality and how it prohibits you from picking apart people’s criticisms and otherwise “winning” arguments. But maybe you were just “calling it to attention” or something.

And yet you seem to find it far less amusing when it’s considered unrealistic to inform people that they don't need to repeat the exact same unconstructive sentiment over and over again if they don't like other people’s constructive, negative criticism, as evidenced by your complaints. I still don’t see any explanation as to why your preferred style of discourse is superior to others, except that it is yours.

 

I haven't said any such thing. I specifically provided unconstructive sentiments of opposing attitudes to demonstrate this. I made no case for restricting constructive criticism of any nature, positive or negative.

 

Wait so your complaint is the specific opinions? If someone thinks LF made a mess of the saga, you think that shouldn’t be allowed to be expressed? I don’t get your second quote there but I don’t recall anyone saying it that way. You’re making assumptions that people are expressing their opinions just to antagonize and that’s an unfair assumption to make barring evidence of that beyond the opinion itself. Everyone is here to discuss, and that means sharing opinions, even if those opinions are strongly felt negative opinions.

As far as “how” someone can reply, that gets into viewpoint censorship which I find silly and childish. As long as people aren’t violating rules or trolling, I don’t think anyone needs to dictate how anyone replies. Dominating a thread to quote every single post someone disagrees with, imo, is specific action that can easily be seen as trolling. Complaining about “how” people post without specifics is way too vague of a complaint to reach any type of a solution.

 

Yup - it's been increasingly toxic for years. This is not new because "TLJ is bad". We had the exact same debate after TFA came out, and back then the cave-dwellers weren't interested in acknowledging they had anything to do with that either. Nothing has changed in that sense.

A lot of the beefs - Luke's arc/ Rey's lineage/ Reylo, which I would say are some of the key flashpoints have all been building since the cast photo dropped (lineage) and then since the Darth Luke rumours dropped. And because TFA resolutely didn't give all the answers on that front (why didn't Luke help in TFA and what will he do next / who are Rey's parents) a lot of the verdict was put on hold until the answers came in TLJ - and we know that the the answers were not ones a good chunk of the hardcore here were not interested in. And I think that is really at the heart of the worsening of the tone here.

 

I was here after TFA, gushing away, and not one of the “bashers” bothered me in the slightest.

 

I make no complaint. I've already stated this.

 

Yes you’ve already tried to change the definition of “complain.”

You just said that opinion is uncivil when there is absolutely nothing uncivil about it. It’s just an opinion that you disagree with.

 

I can't speak for @Martoto77 but I took their post earlier to be more in reference to the TOS where it states:

I took what Martoto77 said to be more about the differences between what's in the TOS as acceptable and what isn't. In that constructively criticizing the films and thinking they're worthy of discussion and analysis even when not enjoying them is encouraged but repeating the above in quotes would not be and would result in zero tolerance.

 

If that was enforced, and there's something similar about fans not shouting down criticism - you'd reduce a massive amount of the flare ups.

 

Everyone here thinks the movies are worth discussing. That’s why they’re here lol. If someone started repeatedly posting about how there’s nothing worth saying about the movies and they don’t care about them, I don’t think they’d even need to be modded. They’d just leave out of boredom. Or they could be modded. If that rule translates into a ban of expressing the opinion that LF has screwed up the saga with the ST or just with TLJ, I’d like to know because I have no interest in participating in that kind of a viewpoint censored discussion.

That feels like just another vague way of trying to explain vague complaints of “toxicity.”

 

Before that was added to the TOS there was more shutdown comments overall and less constructive criticism or discussion. Some even were just posting some variation of this over and over in short bursts that didn’t contribute to discussion:

Star Wars is dead for me.

Lucasfilm is horrible.

Disneywars are a nightmare.

There was a lot of that being shouted in many threads in December and it was probably seen as disruptive to many of the actual discussions that were ongoing and seemed to occasionally derail some. Short angry heckles seemed to contribute toward a reduction in civility. Especially when those same basic statements were just being revisited over and over without much alteration at all. It’s entirely possible that it occurred so much that some may have been viewed as baits or spams or disruption of discussion for the sake of it. And judgments on all of those are of course at the disrection of the staff who volunteer their time to try and make this place as organized and geared toward discussion as it can be.

Only my opinion but from my desk it didn’t seem like those kinds of comments were likely to lead to any meaningful discussions that involved others. So, the Sanctuary was seemingly created to allow for a place where that level of venting could occur for a time. It then evolved into more of a catch-all social thread.

Discussions, IMO, have generally been improving overall since those early, emotionally-charged days in December and January and posts in general seem to have become more specific and less ad hominem against the film or Lucasfilm. More constructive criticism is occurring with enough specifics laid out to actually allow for counter-opinions and therefore discussion and analysis.

Put simply, there seems to be less short bursts of anger being shouted randomly in this book club/movie club we call a forum and more discussions occurring between participants. Which I assume was the goal the whole time.

 

I enjoy a spirited debate and discussion as much as anyone. What kind of kept me off the boards for a little bit towards the end of 2017 and beginning of 2018 was the "hit and run" posts that were quite common around here.

Example: In the plot hole thread, we had several variations of "How can I point out a plot hole if there was no plot?"

Having said that, I've seen a lot less of those types of posts, whether the users left the boards completely or the mods dropped the ban hammer.

I don't ever really post in the Sanctuary but I like to lurk. Some of the stuff that's posted in there is pretty funny (I don't mean funny in ha ha ha these people are children and need to grow up sort of way) and has actually got me thinking about different directions the ST could have gone. It's healthy to have our ideas and opinions challenged by those with a different point of view. I would never want to silence anyone for disagreeing with my opinion on a piece of fiction.

I'm going to use @AhsokaSolo as an example. I disagree with a few of her interpretations regarding the movie, but I don't want her to leave the boards or be shunted off to some locked down thread. I welcome all forms of disagreement as long as it is constructive and good natured. We don't have to call each other names or get snarky (I do like a bit of snark though.)

Let's all play nice and respect each other's viewpoints. That's the heart of it IMO at least.

ETA @AhsokaSolo I'm not saying you were calling people names or anything like that. Just wanted to make sure that was clear.

 

I actually have the opposite experience on that thread. I posted a couple of times but eventually left with the constant “THERE ARE NO PLOT HOLES” knee-jerk reactions and incessant mocking of people for being “too nitpicky”. Oh well, it wasn’t a big deal anyway.

I personally think these forums are among the best well modded and controlled places I have been when it comes to not-FC internet forums, and I don’t think you guys give enough credit to the mods for actually – truly – catering to everyone’s well being as much as possible. They don’t just cater to dissenters, they also cater to those who love the movie. I don’t think you quite realize how the moderation of these forums does try to make it the most family friendly environment as possible while also giving enough room for dissenting opinions, given that this is, still, a franchise-dedicated forum and every franchise comes with tons of passionate fans. If you still feel that this is not enough, that there should be more modding on negative opinions even if they don’t break the forum rules, then there is a little crossing over to censorship imo.

I used to hang out in the Naruto Forums for years (almost a decade spent there) and that place was an utter bloodshed compared to this. If you think this is “bad”, you wouldn’t survive a week there without developing some really thick skin. It was still modded. Though not as efficiently, clearly. Even at its peak of popularity, there were ****storms happening every week and it wasn’t just mostly contained to some threads in a section of the forums like here – it was everywhere. Even in FCs. Heck, there were even Anti FCs dedicated to almost every character, every shipping and even the creator himself.

What is happening here, currently, is normal – and very moderated - fan behavior, that sometimes gets a little tense and borders on offensive, but tends to be often modded. It’s not unusual; it’s just that this time you are noticing it because it affects a movie you love. I remember Rebels discussions here, and also in the TV section, being loaded with constant non-stop negativity but nobody felt the need to make calls for “civility”, whatever you mean with that. Rebels fans still persisted, they didn’t leave these forums. And they put up with a lot more than you are putting up with currently.

 

Oh absolutely. It was on both sides. I think I was guilty of making some statements like that and it's something I've worked on both on and off these boards.

I also agree that the mods do a fantastic job here and deserve all the credit in the world. Like I said, I'm sticking to these boards because other places are a million times more toxic and disgusting than anything I've encountered here.

 

Whatever solution is arrived at, one is needed for one reason:

TLJ and indeed the ST as a whole, however it turns out, isn't going away. At the same time new fans find their way into SW every day. All of them, in one way or another, be they like or loathe it, will walk the same road we've all taken the last few months. In that respect, TLJ is an enduring minefield, with the potential for new explosions due to new fans encountering - whether it be explosions of praise or venom.

Some of the factors that affect TLJ now will fade in time, like that R1 preceded it and was a very different film, while others will remain - how the trilogy handled Luke, Han and Leia and Carrie Fisher's death. It is severely unlikely the film will cease being divisive or controversial any time soon. That can't be changed, what can? How conversations about it are conducted, how they are managed.

 

@La Calavera Yeah I didn't mention it earlier since I thought it might be interpreted as an excuse of sorts, but these forums are probably the least toxic general SW forums around right now (and by "general forum" I mean a shared space that's theoretically meant to cater to a wide array of fans, in contrast to a niche forum or a curated friendslist on social media). To the extent that hostility and snark are a problem, it seems to be a reflection of the state of the broader fandom rather than a problem that's specific to JCF. People are much ruder to each other on the SW speculation subreddit, for example, with opinions that run contrary to the sub consensus mocked and downvoted into oblivion.

That's not to say people should be jerks to each other or that the forums wouldn't benefit from people being more considerate of how they speak to each other. But I don't see the atmosphere here as uniquely bad given the general state of the fandom right now. In fact I'd say it's probably pretty good compared to most of the alternatives.

 

I agree with this. I don't understand the call for "civility" either because I don't see any hostility here.

I have been in many fourms and as someone who really like PT, what I see now is nothing compared to what PT fans have to deal with. I was literally called mentally ill for liking the prequels, some famous guy in Twitter compared PT fans to pedophiles, the media supported the hate (ST in comparison got the media full support and they call out people who dislike it. Talk about hypocrisy), the actors and crew were harassed for years...etc.

I personally don't hate ST or love it. It just there for me and while I'm not excited for IX, I'm still curious for what happened beyond the saga.

 

Ultimately I agreed until the 2nd to last paragraph.

This notion that those who don't like TLJ are just a small minority group who are just trying to ruin it for everyone who loves it is a complete fallacy. Firstly the split would easily be close to 50/50 from what I have observed and secondly no-one is more entitled than the other to get the movie that they want. You're right that we all want to get the movies we want, but just because a section of the fandom loves TLJ it doesn't somehow mean that their opinions are more valid or deserving that someone else who didn't like the movie.

Maybe actually finding the middle ground to appease both the likers and haters of TLJ might be the key to success in the next movie rather than just wanting LFL just to solely pander to which side of spectrum that you sit on.