ST A Call For Civility From A Fellow Poster

What I mean is that there's a reason why people who dislike the movie would not simply say it sucks and move on. For me, seeing articles that simply make general sweeping statements that the people who hate this movie are a minority of racists, sexists or butt-hurt fanboys actually made me hate TLJ even more. I feel that if I remain silent on my criticisms after voicing them once, I would allow TLJ's flaws to go unchallenged and enable Lucasfilm to make far worse mistakes in the future.

I speak up because I know that the reception isn't as black and white as the media makes it out to be. TLJ is divisive in more ways than one. Problem is that it's on tripwires of fandom clashes.

 

It seems a lot of points boil down to:

1. There are ways to express one's opinions, and way better ways to express them so please go for the more polite version. In short, don't be a ****.
2. Some posters with views ranging from 1. meh, it's both good and bad, to 2. it's all good, are essentially sick and tired of certain posters whose only posts consist of how horrible LFL, Disney, and/or TLJ is. In short, "we know, we know - you wander all over the board into all threads and never say anything but how horrible LFL, Disney, and TLJ is."

That is the negativity aspect. And I understand the getting tired of it. I suffered through years of it in the PT forum. But how do you lessen negativity without stifling expression? Let's just say it's complicated..

3. Some want greater sensitivity to topics, issues, and/or themes. I doubt you'll see much change, frankly, mainly because some folks tie real life to fictional narrative choices, and some don't. And that's ok, too. It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to call others out because they don't see things the same. It may be ok to raise the issue, request more sensitivity, explain your viewpoint, but you are not allowed to delineate the boundaries of discussion.

So, to sum up - the thread consensus is that everyone should try to post in a civil manner that would make Miss Manners proud? (How many know who that is? I'm probably dating myself.)

 

I agree 100% that point 2 - how do you lessen the negativity without stifling expression - is the real trick.

 

Easy. Don't be a ******* *****. And stop ****** every ***** ****** that ever *******. Or else take a ***** ****** and put it in a ***** *****, sideways.

 

I think it comes down to the golden rule. You like this thing, how would you like others who are critical of it to engage with you in discussions over that thing? Every one of us has that thing that others don't like (or possibly hate). If it's not TFA/TLJ for you, then imagine it's ROTS, or Rebels, Battlefront 2 or that Chewbacca miniseries that Marvel put out a few years ago. When it comes to your favourites, how would you like detractors to behave. With some sensitivity? With some nuance and/or honesty? Apply this to all discussions you have on here.

My current cross to bear is Larroca's art in the SW ongoing. I whinge and moan about it a lot. That some others do the same doesn't make it right. It's not productive when people want to talk about the issues. A separate art critique thread was created to offload the art discussions from the issue discussions and so I try to keep my moaning to there instead. But I slip up every now and then, I do try. Why? Because firstly it's boring for others to have to read my repetitive whinging and second because it's not right for those who like Gillen and Larroca (I'm sure there are fans of him here) to have to read it.

The nature of this forum is that fans flock to the topics they like and want to talk about, the notion that you would go and sit at a table to tell everyone there that they're wrong is a sort of odd behaviour to me. Not to say that it shouldn't happen, but as I mentioned earlier, you don't do this in real life without a measure of tact. As per earlier, why are you telling an Ahsoka cosplayer that you don't like the character, why are you going out of your way to tell someone as passionate as you (just about something else) that they're wrong at such a time? There are times and places where it's more appropriate, and so I'd just suggest to be mindful of that.

 

How much Scottish slang do I need to decode this?

 

It's pronounced as it's written.

 

Nobody is policing opinions around here.

But let me ask you some questions?

Do you like the tone of conversations around here? Do you think we have a problem with how we treat each other? Do you think it is acceptable to interject after every dissenting post to shut that opinion down, or hammer an opinion over and over and over again until those who like something that you do not finally just get fed up and leave?

Because if you don't see a problem, then fine, let's have the status quo.

Because that is what has happened around here. Anyone who wants to talk about Rey as the hero and her hero's journey are gone. The reylos have all been badgered until they have left except for a few masochistic few that either have everyone on ignore or don't care, and even they aren't posting any more. Very few want to talk about what they like, and even less, what they didn't like in the film because it feels like gasoline on a fire that will just fan the flames around here.

I'll say it again: look at the numbers of people posting this time two years ago and compare it to the two dozen that remain?

Nobody is saying there should be censorship of opinion. Yet the only people up in arms are people seem to be one side of this conversation.

I've already given examples of how I'm trying to make this a more positive place as far as tone and behavior. Others have as well. And then there are some that are digging their heels in, demanding the right to express their displeasure in any manner they seem fit, in any thread, and even suggesting that those who don't want to be exposed to the daily negativity form a fanclub ghetto over in the community page.

What are you going to do to make this a less toxic place where varying schools of thought can coeist?

 

In December and January I think there was almost a race toward some impression of influence by all who had strong opinions on the film but I really believe it's reaching a point where we all know who feels basically what and, more importantly, that nobody with influence at Lucasfilm is going to come in here and go, "Hmmm. That's a point we hadn't considered. Let's change everything!" Or, "Hmmm. I'm now convinced that the direction we are on is 100% correct! Thank you Force.net forum poster!"

So, the first step is letting go of the idea that anyone with an opposing view of the ST is going to somehow decide the future of Lucasfilm. A company the size of Lucasfilm and Disney have their own analytics teams and marketing data on kids, teens, general audiences, hardcore fans of different ages, and their own egos related to receiving critical acclaim or just believing in the direction they think is best. They'll know if they've made inroads with new demographics that they were hoping to at a young age than when they first purchased Star Wars. They'll do what they want based on all of that. They've showed us multiple times that they are willing to lose hardcore fans if they think it stops the bleeding of casual fans/general audiences entirely. They wouldn't have blown up the EU if they were only thinking about the hardcore fan. They signed off on Johnson's script. Do we really think they are shocked that there would be controversy and a divide around Luke Skywalker falling on hard times and ultimately dying?

So, if we aren't going to change their minds... why are we here and typing about the ST? That's a question each of us has to answer on our own.

Are we trying to find new ways to enjoy these movies? Are we trying to find new ways to hate them? Are we trying to share what we love about them to others? Trying to share what we hate about them? Are we trying to understand how others like them or do not? Are we as interested in reading what others have to say as we are typing or only the reverse? Do we think that what we write is going to make converts out of people who strongly disagree somehow? If not, then why do we worry that _____ wrote something that we fundamentally disagree with? We know that _____ disagrees with us on how they see Star Wars. This shouldn't shock us. We don't have to engage _____. We can choose to engage others who we have more productive discussions with. Are we trying to ruin the fun that others have with the movies because we find that fun? Are we trying to ruin the fun of people who enjoy sarcastically bashing films? Do we just like arguing and debating for the sake of it? Are we here to vent? Here for the odd joke? Here as a creative outlet and a distraction because we can't write elsewhere? Here out of habit? One of these things? Some of these things? None of these things?

Sometimes thinking about why we're doing what we're doing is a great first step toward new realizations and potential change.

 

To be fair, @anakinfansince1983 , I think the insinuation of a socio-political thread was also that those most interested in discussing those things would also have a devoted place where they knew they could count on and expect discussion like that.

Similar in precedent to the diversity thread essentially but with a wider brush to discuss other parallels between real life and things observed in the films that the characters themselves don’t seem to have as much issue with, or that aren’t being referenced in the same way, as we might as viewers watching from our world.

And before anyone says it, yes, some of the things I talk about would also be relevant in such a thread.

I’ll try to provide some examples here:

Anakin is referred to as a slave in TPM. So naturally the topic of slavery is relevant to his character in a thread focused on him. Rey’s parents reportedly sold her for drinking money so alcoholism and addictions issues are naturally part of her character arc history.

 

@anakinfansince1983 I'm not insinuating anything other than everyone here needs to do some heavy lifting to make this a better place. That means you. That means me. That means everyone who "gushes" as well as everyone who calls the Sanctuary and everyone else in between. We have all contributed to the toxic nature of this board, and I think we all need to acknowledge that and stop acting like one faction is being signaled out. Because we all are to blame.

I asked you directly because I have already given examples of what I am trying to do several pages back: lower my sarcasm, not respond when I am angry, let things pass and simply not respond if people already know my opinion instead of hammering it over and over. We all should make concessions and not excuses for why our behavior should remain at the status quo.

I am seeing far too many people even willing to acknowledge they are part of the problem and not offering anything in the way of making it better other than trying to stake a claim to continue the status quo.

No one is censoring anyone. But unless everyone here is invested in making this a better place, the exodus from here will continue because of the toxicity and the behavior around here until there are a few scattered echo chambers.

So yeah, I want everyone to look in the mirror on this problem. Because unless we acknowledge we have a problem that each of us contributes to, things aren't going to change around here. We all need to be part of the solution and stop looking for excuses and strawmen to hide behind. We all need to fix this or the ST threads will be a barren place.

 

The point made by somebody above is telling; that poster wants to restate the same opinions again and again not to contribute to discussion, but as part of a personal mission to not allow Lucasfilm to shrug off their reaction.

I think that that’s over the line of what the board is for, and it’s exactly the type of posting method that makes me feel like posting here is not much fun right now - discussion is stifled by what has been proudly admitted to as campaigning.

This isn’t about stopping discussion - it’s about the fact that there are review threads, complaint threads, and reaction threads. I think it’s totally understandable that bugbears and disappointing aspects bled into other threads for a time, but long term surely every thread can’t be a review thread or a debate about quality?
Surely, once people have vented and articulated the issues they have for posterity, there comes a point when “this has been said many times” isn’t anything close to censorship, but more like curation?

I think if we took a step back, and just agreed to try not to vent and not to snark, we’d all realise that sometimes, mentioning an issue is appropriate and constructive, but that if it isn’t part of a bigger point about the film then what is it trying to achieve? If the answer is “venting” or “campaigning” then I don’t think that’s massively fair to do so on an endless repeat cycle.
I also think it’s worn a bit thin that discussion of the film that doesn’t criticise it, is often read as “enthusiasm” and I think that it’s true to say that there are some very frequent posters who consciously post with the intent to balance perceived enthusiasm with criticism, to make sure there’s no risk of a conversation happening that doesn’t restate the “divisive” aspect.

Ultimately, this forum is going to turn into (if it hasn’t already) a film forum that doesn’t feel welcoming to people who like the film.
And the biggest depressing aspect of that, is that that’s exactly what some people seem to want.

It’s why I’m only posting in this thread, really. Nowhere else feels like it’d be fun to post in. Thanks for that, guys.

 

And that is the reason why people who do not like the film have exactly one thread called sanctuary that will be closed in a couple of days....
Exactly that kind of statement is not really pushing anyone forward except people that want to provoke the next harsh comment.

 

Genuine question - what negative aspect do you feel is still left unsaid or unexplored about the film?

For me, the reason I think it’s a good thing the sanctuary is closing is that I would hope it eventually leads to a situation where constructive discussion is the default, and people don’t vent in one thread and then spread the sentiment elsewhere.

Like, would it really be the worst thing if you log on to complain about the film, realise that it doesn’t fit in the flow of discussion at that point, and then decide not to post?

 

Everyone that posts regularly here is restating the same opinions over and over. Redundancy is a guarantee on a forum like this. Once again my rule is, does this faux standard apply equally to everyone, or are some just going after certain people because of their specific opinions?

At least people are admitting that their real goal is just for people that don’t like the film to go away. I feel honesty gets discussion much further, much quicker.

 

I'm pretty much the Outsider viewpoint here, being primarily active over in Lit:

I would still see a maiIn this environment, any notion of common ground is lost. n part of the problem being that people treat discussion as debate, with their opinion as the "correct" one and everyone else as "wrong", unless others subscribe to the "correct" view. (It should be recognised too that individual perception of a film is going to be subjective, rational and emotional.) You need a definition of common ground? Here's one:

Short of engaging in piracy, which I doubt any participating posters would, everyone paid money and spent time - the one most precious resource we all have - watching TLJ in the cinema, or now by streaming or on Blu-Ray. That's your common ground right there. That's where you start from.

But the bigger aspect may well be TLJ itself. The material is controversial and divisive by design and we cannot change that.

And new posters who encounter it for the first time won't be able to either. Hanging around any internet forum for a while means accepting a degree of repetition. For myself I'm talking TLJ less and other SW stuff more because I have little left to say about the former, the other SW stuff is more interesting for me.

 

I could ask in return - what positive things are still left unsaid or unexplored?

There are substantive discussion in the Sanctuary, as substantive as in the other threads. We're not just ranting. But I find it interesting that the civility thread opened pretty much simultaneously with the announcement that the Sanctuary is being shut down.

 

The sense I get is TFA really did encourage speculation in a way TLJ didn't, the one has more unanswered questions than the other.

But I do wonder if the answers TLJ gave to the speculation sparked by TFA hasn't been a deterrent to post-TLJ speculation for Ep 9?

 

I've definitely seen that in other fandom circles. New fans excited to spin ideas for 8 have no enthusiasm for 9. Some of the comments from John Boyega are getting folks a bit interested but it's nothing like the last time.

 

While I appreciate the fact that you actually replied to those, that was never my expectation or intention for anyone. I listed them more so as a thought experiment for all of us just internally to be honest.

But thank you for sharing regardless!