Lit A character with a different sexuality in Star Wars EU?

Your inability to conceive of such a thing is not my problem. I can, off the top of my head, name you a fictional character wherein the issue of transsexualism and transgendered issues arise because of how they feel about cultural perception of their gender compared to the job they want and the job culture surrounding it. That character is Naoto Shirogane from Persona 4. Kumagaya Jun could think of a situation where a character felt cultural pressure strong enough that they dressed opposite gender and considered surgery. If it can happen in the context of a character in Japanese culture, I'm sure it can happen in the GFFA, which is infinitely more diverse.

Regardless, that was a single example. I could go with something more "traditional" if you like. A MtF Imperial officer who rose in the ranks in spite of the Empire's gender politics, for instance. Knowing that is part of their history tells you plenty about them besides "They are a transsexual".

Also, not to be too personal, but I'm probably also one of the last people here you could talk to that needs a lesson on how transsexualism "works".

 

I wish that was the actual line.

 

Ziro?

Anyway we all know the deal with the Hutt's and their changing sexuality.

I could see it being part of a story with ease.

 

Gotta make sure all escapism is around white straight humans, with no issues except war, right!?

 

Hey, now, slow down.

...Lando ain't white.

 

Said character must be from the Transylvania system...

 

Yeah but wasn't he supposed to be exhibiting feminine affectations in his male state? I thought Dave Filoni said somewhere that Lucas thought it would be funny to have a drag queen Hutt.

Sure, and rape, cancer, pedophilia, homophobia, racism, and drug addiction could easily be part of a story too but I don't want to read about them in Star Wars any more than I want to read about Troy Denning's torture fetish or watch a movie where Anakin Skywalker murders children. Maybe someone could disguise it as part of some alien culture, like how the humans in Star Wars are too advanced for racism so they just hate aliens instead, but I don't see the need for a media tie-in franchise to a series of light-hearted family-friendly space adventure films to weigh in on depressing real-world social issues like abortion.

Yeah my favorite story arc of Knight Errant was when Kerra Holt had to not only save the galaxy from the Sith but also combat her own breast cancer while wrestling with the moral implications of aborting an unwanted pregnancy resulting from date rape.

 

Yeah, he gets paired up with the only other black person who exists in the galaxy after ROTJ...

 

Lando and Jariah hooked up? Nice going Lando.

 

er yeah feeling insecure about being female due to working in a male-dominated environment has, again, nothing to do with transsexualism.

yeah I don't see how it does? like how would this hypothetical character be different from a woman that doesn't have a trans history? and how would the audience even be informed of it in a way that wasn't either clunky or offensive without it coming up as a plot point?

uhm. cool?

 

Wow, I'm surprised at the number of posters who want to walk in a puddle of HIV, to quote a better writer than I am. For once, Jello and I am are in agreement. Do we think the EU will treat sexuality realistically, or will we forced through a terrible very special episode story? Let us hit the main points, potential blind spots, and so forth.

First, the rationale for making Ben Skywalker bisexual- since we still need Cade down the road-, or trying to avoid the cheap sensationalism of Luke walking on his only son perform oral sex on a two penis blue creature. Why are we introducing this character into the franchise, why are we showing an established character was a sword swallower during university? What are we going to reveal about the character by introducing this as a point in the novel? If Corran stole some of the spice out of the CorSec evidence cache, and then Corran went on a sodomy bender, would he actually have a slight queer tinge or saw funny lifelike pictures in front of him?

Second, how are we going to play the characters reactions? Too many naifs and charlatans here, online, and in the rest of media assume a reflex disbelief by a person watching homosexual acts (I think Gore Vidal and I are moving closer on our views on sex, but tis another topic) equates homophobia. This is not true much in the same way the belief that race equates sexuality. Are you, as a reader, prepared to see an less than ideal reaction by Han if he is not marching front in center on Corellian Pride Day? Are you prepared to realize that the letters in LGBT are in fact a heterogeneous mix who can spend as much time fighting each other instead others in a grand homogeneous front? Are you really to watch queers make out in your literature? Lets us utilize an example. Cooper's crypto-nazi diversity thread is a grand example of an attempt to make something better that is actually making something worse. Are you comfortable watching someone of the opposite sexuality engage in foreplay leading to intercourse in front of you? Would this be seen as an invalidation of your contentions if you knee jerk to these actions? Reading about these actions?

Third, what are we, as a readership, gaining by seeing intergalactic interspecies same-sex fisting? How will we respond as a readership? The EU's relationship history is checkered. Take Survivor's Quest. How anyone who has moved beyond first base can consider the Luke/Mara relationship as anything but fraudulent is off in a different state than I am. Will this same-sex relationship be an exercise in political correct self-delusions? Queers sleep around, cheat on their spouses, break up, engage in monogamous relationships, and so forth. The belief that non-heteros are chaste paragons pushed down by the man is as insulting as the belief that every one will jump on your anal cavity at the first sight while you are the gym's shower.

Each side of the debate, thesis and antithesis, so far have been great examples of how to use your head in auto-sodomy. When the writers and the fans can do introspection then we are ready to move forward.

 

It certainly can, if the individual is led to believe their desired role is not acceptable, if that leads them to conclude that their birth gender is somehow incorrect. You should probably know, for education purposes, that people figure out they're transsexual through all sorts of causes. Regardless, you're hyperfocusing on a single issue: transsexualism. Even if we tossed that aside, we have a massive umbrella of transgendered issues which can be a part of the GFFA, this being, again, a single example to which I could add dozen of hypothetical characters with plenty of motives. Again, your inability to conceive of such things is your own problem.

How it might tell you something about the character? As the simplest possible examples, I know that they are possessed of a bravery that other characters might lack because they gave up comfort in exchange for expression of self, I've a fairly strong confidence that they eschew or deride some of the politics of the Empire, and I know that their tactical skill is enough that it outweighs the heavy biases of their peers. These are some of the most basic characteristics and they come across in a matter which is potentially magnified compared to a cisgendered peer.

First off, the hypothetical character would be different than a cis one because they're trans. Literally. That's a flat out category based difference and an important one. How are they different? Quit literally because they're not just another woman. Or man.

This question is almost demeaning, to be honest, and it really makes me question how much you know about the matters you want to talk about. But assuming that the GFFA functions in some relation to our own in terms of gender politics...or, as in the case of my example, the Empire is a conservative minded about these things as we are generally led to believe...there'd be plenty of differences because the live of a ciswoman is not the same as that of a transwoman, pre or post transition. It just isn't. I'm not even sure why that needs stating.

That's beyond the point, the manifestation of the character's backstory and how it affects them can take form in a lot of ways depending on what we need from the character. There's no uniquely "trans" state of mind or behavior so if we're looking for some major, divergent change that makes readers go "Transperson!". It could manifest as tolerance and a surprisingly diverse crew, it could manifest in a highly job/goal orientated mind, it could manifest in moments of quick, private doubt, it could manifest as brutal honesty towards others, it could manifest as an increased willingness to listen to subordinates, it could manifest in the creation of a more familiar command style, it could manifest as being politically involved.

Shall I go on? Because I know what you might say "Those traits are not unique to a transperson so why should the character who exhibits them need to be trans?". The short answer is that they don't. No character needs to be anything. But the GFFA is a very homogeneous place when we look at the fiction even when it comes to diversity of species, let alone sexuality and gender. So the long answer is....if the galaxy is supposedly so diverse, then it suffers for the lack of actual, diverse characters of any kind.

Aptly done internal narration, suitably deft omniscient narration, dialog. You know the tools of how because you've read books before. Perhaps they meet the protagonist for the first time and are a bit of "to the point" than expected, which prompts a question, which brings up to topic for a moment. And by moment, we mean, a single line of dialog which just serves as character background and world building. Doesn't need to be dwelled upon. Heck, if you want me to write a hypothetical scene for you, I can do so in order to illustrate the point. But a quick question and answer, as the example, is hardly clunky. It happens plenty in Star Wars and in fiction in general.

 

AlyxDinas do you know any trans people irl jw

 

As someone who's very interested in seeing this debate continue, let me just mention that nothing is helped by people making assumptions about others' existing knowledge and experience with the subject. After all:

Not you, Sniper--you can call me a Nazi all you want.

 

Yeah. Me, for starters.

You lost me, Coop. I think you quoted the wrong person.

 

I didn't.

 

I was referring more to the aspect of noble birth, and therefore a hereditary aristocracy that not only has symbolic power, but holds real political and in many cases military authority. That's a social structure that believes certain persons are 'better' or at least more important, simply by dint of their heritage, which most certainly does reflect a lack of social enlightenment.

Yes many European countries retain an aristocracy, and in some cases they retain strong hereditary wealth through land ownership or other means, but the West has for the most past abandoned the idea of hands-on rule by kings and emperors, certainly compared to much of the Muslim world, for example. Certainly heritage retains a great deal of implicit social authority in the West, including the United States, being a Bush or a Kennedy is still a big deal, but it no longer carries explicit authority.

Star Wars has noble houses who are major players in its politics and life. It is entirely possible to inherit rulership of a world and powers equivalent to global presidency merely through accident of birth, and even in slightly more democratic planets, you still have to be part of the aristocracy to move up to power - Naboo is a good example.

Now, you are indeed correct that the existence of an aristocratic social system at the upper echelons of the spacer culture does no inherently say anything about tolerance along other cultural lines, whether it be race or sexuality. It is even possible, depending on who happens to be in power, for the nobles to have a much more open-minded view than the masses (again, parallels to certain portions of the Muslim world today), but it is an example of where the Galaxy Far, Far, Away should be considered behind that of much of 21st Earth on a scale of social progress, which was really the point I was trying to make.

The average space opera generally presumes that the dominant society will be considerably ahead of where the Earth currently is - projections will obvious vary depending on the creator's viewpoints and dominant trends, but the overriding assumption is that we continually move towards a more accepting and tolerant society. Mass Effect, which is thematically and stylistically about as close to Star Wars' clone as you can get, certainly goes this route. Star Wars, unusually, is deeply anachronistic and eccentric across a wide variety of cultural lines - probably due to the strange collage of influences that produced it in the first place.

 

Does everything in existence need to be "represented"? I don't set around worrying about "representing" certain groups when I create things. Forcing this agenda on developers just hinders creativity. Your telling people they HAVE to "represent" certain groups instead of just set and be creative. It's a bunch of hogwash. I am Irish and a Pagan....I don't see much "represent ion" of me in Star Wars. I could really care less. People who set around worrying about that stuff need to get some self esteem and grow up a little. This forced inclusion of certain groups ruins art. Art should never be forced or made to appease popular political agendas. Mass Effect for example is just fine without same sex characters. Including it isn't necessary.

And I see PLENTY of female leads. This constant complaint I read everywhere about not enough females being in things is a flat out lie. It backfires and will eventually make the majority the minority. Equality is a lie, as Darth Bane once said. You can never make things "fair" and "balanced". Trying to will just create more problems, as it is doing right now. I frankly could CARE LESS what sex a lead in a game or movie is. I don't set around worrying about politically correct agendas. I don't analyze my entertainment based on popular social brain programming....yes, I believe politically correctness is a form of brainwashing. So shoot me.

read my other reply above ^

I wasn't aware that there was a law that every group and every type of human had to be given a piece of the pie. This kind of mentality just ruins art in my opinion. "Inclusion" isn't what creativity is about.

 

I mean, but I still feel like that's sort of missing the whole point? I mean, gender is not that fluid tho. Taking the above case, wouldn't you then be a woman who was forced into a man's body for the purpose of societal norms or whatever, and so, therefore, would have an accompanying bucketload of issues, most of which would be that you are living as the wrong gender, and are, therefore, um, intentionally trans in a way you weren't before? Like, even if you found out you were trans because of workplace or societal pressure, it is merely a method of discovery--it did not make you trans.

I mean, I guess but like, I feel like this is not necessarily as easy to just mention and ignore ?

But I mean, I feel like someone being like "Hi, I'm Captain SoandSo and I am non-cisgendered" is kind of weird. Also, "Hey Captain SoandSo, you have a very diverse and interesting crew for an Imperial", "Oh yes, this is because I am a trans personal who believes in equality" is also weird. So like, if we go with it being done via internal narration of some sort, I still can't see, "She thought back to a time when she had believed as they did--that only a man could make it in this world. It had taken her years to admit who she really was, and even longer to have the courage to live her life as the gender she truly was, not the gender she was born" is not any less clunky and or plotpointish? (I'll give you a more talented writer could craft a much more poetic line, but I still don't see how that would be less, um, forced?) I mean, because I'm not really seeing a circumstance wherein someone would think a lot about being a post transition person unless there was some reason in the story too--even if only for tiny plot reasons, and if they were going through transition, then wouldn't that be a part of the plot as well?

 

I do want to take a brief aside to at least point out that I somewhat resent the implications that anything I've said to Trip was merely because they did not agree with me 100%. Let's not presume on intentions, yes?

In a franchise this large and expansive, it is less about some vague notion that everything needs to be represented (after all, writers can do whatever they want). The question, rather, is "Does this franchise feel sufficiently diverse?". Science Fiction is generally progressive in tone, socially. It has to be because there's so much other stuff going on that's much more alien and different than the real world. But that fact also puts it in a place where it can make such offhand references without them feeling obtrusive. And it certainly doesn't *hurt* the setting in any way which I can discern to have the occasional LGBTQ individual. Heck, even one out of one hundred is a step up from a functional zero.

Which agenda? Who have I told such a thing to? Have other people said something I'm not aware of? Don't strawman this. I don't think anyone is saying that writers need to make compulsory or token overtures in order to appeased certain members of the demographic. I believe the most anyone has said is that those demographics are statistically underrepresented in the IP. Which is fact.

I don't think anyone here believes it should. Suggesting that a thing be more cognizant of diversity is far off from demanding that it be crafted to specifically appease certain individuals. If something can be done that addresses the issue of diversity in an organic fashion, however...well, I don't think we should discourage that..

This is an example of mixed effectiveness, since the franchise itself is very much diverse in demographics, including those not limited to sexuality.

Define plenty. Some writers are better than others in this regard. Recently? There's been some remarkably strong female leads. I'd even say that the strongest character in all the franchise is a woman: the Exile. But that doesn't really give the IP a big pass on things.

Sure we get a Kerra Holt, Ania Solo, or Lanoree Brock from time to time but we're also living in an age where, for instance, Naughty Dog needed to petition to have female testers in The Last of Us. In terms of Star Wars, a large portion of the recent EU is shaped by a man who felt that Jaina could not get married to Jag because it would reduce her worth as a character (which, I will admit, has problems beyond the gender component)...and whose most recent book was marginalized Mirta Gev into eye candy.

Things are not as simple as you want to believe they are. Consider Jaina. Major character. Strong woman. But we're still waiting on a book series about her, post-NJO. A real series where she is the hero. What's the last thing even close to that we got from Jaina? Dark Journey?

I don't even know if I consider this a matter of political correctness. I look at it more insofar as the genre itself tends to be diverse. Star Wars struggles in this regard. For many reasons. And it is possible to address this without being overly saccharine about it.

But neither is creativity about homogenization. Look at the trends of the post-NJO EU. Monolithic entities are the norm, at the expense of unique individuals.