Saga A "Cold" Saga Viewing In Episode Order

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by bswb, Sep 18, 2011.

  1. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Very good post!! 1 comes before 2, 3 comes before 4, 5 comes before 6. Makes sense to me.
  2. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    True, but Lucas has said he likes to make movies with disorienting beginnings where things happen without much explanation.
  3. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    The Obi Wan vs Anakin/Vader II duel is a lot more powerful when you watch the first 3 episodes first. I think the only part that would enhance it would be if Obi Wan called him Ani instead of Darth. "Only a master of evil Ani" makes it more of diss since Anakin called him a weak old man.
  4. bswb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2000
    star 1
    But Obi-Wan LOOKS like he's lying when he tells Luke stories of the past in his hut.But Obi-Wan LOOKS like he's lying when he tells Luke stories of the past in his hut.

    I totally caught that. Also, Obi-Wan's expression when he tells Luke that Vader is "now more machine than man, twisted and evil", it's very hard NOT to think of the Mustafar duel.

    Now, as to what order to show your kids...as my wife and I are having the kid talk these days, this surprisingly comes up a lot. I'm pushing for 1-6, but she is torn, as she feels ROTS is just too dark for a very young child. I actually discussed this with a friend of mine, and her 4-year-old has seen 4-6 and TPM but not AOTC/ROTS. It's not that she's a PT basher by any means, she thinks they're good storytelling with some dialog flaws (which, if you watch them in order objectively, is probably what most people would think). She just said that she would have no clue how to sensibly explain WHY the last 1/4 of ROTS happens to a 4-year-old.
  5. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    I have the opposite reaction, the ANH duel now has problems due to the RotS duel.

    My first problem is only with RotS and that is Obi-Wan cutting of Anakins arm and legs and the leaves him to slowly burn to death. I find this cruel and evil on Obi-Wans part and totally out of character for him and does not fit with how he felt about Anakin.
    A quick kill would be more in line with Jedi rules and how Obi-Wan otherwise acts.

    This leads to the second problem, Anakin suffered horribly because of what Obi-Wan did and he was permanently disfigured as a result. So for some 20 years Anakin/Vader has been in pain and every day he wakes up he is reminded what Obi-Wan did to him.
    And yet when they meet Vader is quite calm and relaxed. I have a hard time fitting the burning character that yells "I HATE YOU!!!" to Obi-Wan with the calm guy who says "I have been waiting for you Obi-Wan, we meet again at last." I can buy that Vader is calmer and more focused than his angry and reckless younger self but this is a little to big a stretch. Also given that the PT establishes Anakin as a guy that does not forgive easily and holds grudges. He was quite pissed at Dooku when they met in RotS and Dooku had "only" cut of his arm. Obi-Wan had cut of both his legs and arm and left him to brun to death.

    Lastly, Obi-Wans line "He is more machine now than man.." Obi-Wan you made him like that, you cut of his legs and arm and left him to burn. Sure you probably did not think he would survive that but the humane and sensible thing would be to put an end to his misery.

    Regards
    Nordom


  6. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4

    About Owen, I doubt that Owen knew what happened to Anakin. The only way he could have known is if Obi-Wan told him and given how important secrecy was to Obi-Wan is seriously doubt Obi-Wan would have told and run the risk of Owen telling the thruth.

    About Obi-Wan, his many lies to Luke now becomes hard to swallow. Anakin never wanted Luke to have his lightsaber, nor was there any relationship between Anakin and Owen nor any of the "Stay here and don't get involved" bit from Owen.

    Re: suprises.

    That Palpatine is Sidious is not that hard to figure out even if you know nothing of the OT. The actor has quite distinct features and you can recognize him as Sidious. Also at the end of TPM Mace and Yoda talks of the Sith and there is a shot of Palpatine face.

    That Anakin would turn out bad is also not very hard to see coming. We get very dire warnings about him in TPM and in AotC he is a rather dark character who commits mass murder about half the way through. So that he turns in RotS is not a big shock.

    Even other "suprises" are not hard to spot, for ex after watching TPM I knew that Shmi would come to a bad end and that would affect Anakin directly. Qui-Gons death was even spoiled by the soundtrack cover. That the clone army would turn on the Jedi is also not hard to see coming. That Dooku would turn out to be a bad guy is not much of a suprise.

    Regards
    Nordom


  7. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Well I would disagree that Vader vs Obi-Wan does not have enough build up even with just ANH. We have seen Vader and how powerfull he is. We get some backstory on him that links him with Obi-Wan but also with Luke. Obi-Wan was played with lots of warmth and charm by Sir Alec and we can see why Luke would feel very sad by his death.

    Compare this with the Maul vs Qui-Gon in TPM. We know next to nothing about Maul other than that he is a bad guy and the other Jedi thought his kind were long since dead. He has grudge against the Jedi that we never learn why he has. And he has nothing much in the way of character, he is just some guy that fight well and his function is to kill Qui-Gon and then die.

    For me, the TPM fight, while flashy and fast, felt much flatter and much less interesting than the ANH fight.

    Lastly, Obi-Wan does not seem to have any trust in the prophecy because he wants Luke to kill Vader, not redeem him.



    I think you are reading things into the scene with what you now know.
    At the time, and what Lucas would have told Guinness, is this; Luke has been told lies about his father by Owen. Obi-Wan now first has to tell Luke the thruth about what happened to him but there is more than that. Luke's father was murdered but more than that, he was killed by Obi-Wans pupil. So Obi-Wan quite probably blames himself for Luke's fathers death. He could think "If I had been a better teacher or spotted Vaders dark side sooner then Anakin might have lived." The novel, with Lucas name on it, makes it VERY clear that Obi-Wan is NOT lying here. He tells the thruth but it is a painfull thruth. Hence the hesitation and uncomfortable looks.
    Knowing your father is dead is quite different from knowing your father was murdered.
    There is every chance that learning this would make Luke want to rush out and seek revenge on Vader and Obi-Wan would not want that.

    Lastly, how exactly did the other Jedi manipulate Anakin? They seemed not to trust him at times and treated him quite poorly from time to time but manipulate?

    Regards
    Nordom
  8. princethomas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2001
    star 2

    Theres just no way to show a kid that young ROTS. But you don't need to. One thing about showing them to kids is no one seems to have any patience. Why must we show them all at once? My son Luke just turned three. And we watched The Phantom Menace just for fun. We talk Star Wars all the time. He knows Lightsabers and Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader and Obi-Wan and Jar Jar Binks and Anakin and Padme and we just have fun. I will continue to show him the Phantom Menace every so often until he gets older and we see how he is getting it. Then we'll move to Attack of the Clones. I figure when he is 6. Then we'll watch that a bunch and talk about the scary parts and then we'll have countless hours of The Clone Wars to watch. So then I think when he's 8, maybe 7, we'll sit down and watch Revenge of the Sith. We'll talk it about everything we see and we'll get through it ok.

    I actually think you are cheating your kids a little if you show it too early. I don't remember seeing Empire and ANH. I was 5 when I saw both. But I have a memories of Jedi and that is special.

    Plus. Understand. I don't think any new person should ever move on to the next film, regardless of order, without having watched the previous one several times and talking about it in depth. Thats how we did it mostly.
  9. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    My first problem is only with RotS and that is Obi-Wan cutting of Anakins arm and legs and the leaves him to slowly burn to death. I find this cruel and evil on Obi-Wans part and totally out of character for him and does not fit with how he felt about Anakin.


    I don't find Obi-Wan's actions in ROTS out of character . . . especially when I recall that he first tried to manipulate and later encourage Luke to commit patricide in the OT.
  10. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Do not agree:
    1) My comment was in a 1-3 view and Obi-Wan has been showed as someone who kills quickly if lethal force is needed. Ex he wounds and quickly kills one of the arena monsters in AotC. Nowhere has he been showed as one who inflicts pain and suffering needlesly.
    2) With Luke Obi-Wan is lying and manipulative but that is not the same as cruel and sadistic which I feel he was with Anakin.
    3) Obi-Wan feels it is neccesary to kill Vader and felt the same in RotS. So why leave Anakin to die slowly?
    Finish the job, it would be more humane and carries out the order Obi-Wan was under.
    4) Obi-Wan is only partly manipulating Luke. Luke has reasons of his own to want Vader dead, he killed and tortured some of his friends, he cut of his hand and he is a part of the empire that Luke fights.
    5) Obi-Wan wants Luke to kill Vader, not torture him to death.
    6) Obi-Wan still cares about Anakin and yet he leaves him to suffer horribly before dying.

    Regards
    Nordom