Lit A Cynical Walk Through the NJO

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cynical_Ben, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I'm just saying that the story could have ended not with ANY philosopher but Jaina Solo killing Shimmra or Leia making peace.

    Just a happy coincidence it worked out for Jacen.
  2. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5

    I think you are misinterpreting the quote (which I'd like to see) -- the ERC discusses how the original plan was for Anakin to resolve the plot and it was nigh identical to the way in which Jacen did in broad strokes. Luceno likely had freedom in the particulars.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 12, 2013
  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I think otherwise but one can't talk concrete about have beens. Anyway, I think it worked fine the way it did but Anakin's loss wouldn't have made a very good statement either way.

    You need Jedi Guardians *AND* Counselors.
  4. Cynical_Ben Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2013
    star 4
    I want to live in that universe. I want to see Ben Affleck as Anakin Skywalker, Benedict Cumberbatch as Obi-Wan, Katie Holmes as Padme Amidala and Laurence Fishburn as Mace Windu, with Yoda played by that little person from Game of Thrones. Our universe's prequels suck.

    I guess, on the downside, their universe's Joker from Batman:TAS was Tim Curry. Oh, wait, that's not a downside... um... Leia was played by Jodie Foster! Um... Steven Spielberg directed Star Wars Episode III instead of War of the Worlds! Uh... Troy Denning never wrote anything but Star Trek tie-in novels that became the basis of their rebooted movie cannon in the early '90s! Er... I got nothing.

    EDIT: Sleep deprivation. It's a heck of a drug.
    Last edited by Cynical_Ben, Sep 12, 2013
  5. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Can't wait for your Star By Star Write-Up!
  6. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Show Spoiler
    The epic finale of The New Jedi Order reveals Onimi’s true nature -- an element that existed even in the initial storyline. When the invaders were still described as dark siders, they were to be led by a “god-king and his dwarfish adjutant.” The adjutant’s relationship with the king was described as symbiotic, and in this early form, Onimi was “Iago-like.” He would be destroyed by Anakin Solo. From the outline:
    Forged by Luke, by his dark side mentor, by his very ancestry as the grandson of Darth Vader, Anakin is the Sword of Righteousness.

    As the outline underwent revision with George Lucas’s feedback, and Anakin was replaced by Jacen, Jacen’s defeat of Onimi became more specific. Vergere had been identified as someone who could use the Force on a molecular level -- as evidenced by her healing tears. Jacen learns this ability and applies a version of it when he destroys Onimi. From the revised outline:
    And this is when Jacen uses what he has learned: he connects with the Living Force to analyze the attack on a cellular level, and then turn it back on his attacker… and the minion is consumed horribly.

    The final book retains some of this cellular transmutation -- as Jacen uses the Force to neutralize toxins secreted by Onimi -- but layers it with metaphysical transformation as Jacen becomes a conduit to the Force. The original description of Vergere as an aikido-like Jedi resonates in this passage, as Jacen essentially uses Onimi’s power against him.


    It was consistently the same, from the time when Anakin was fighting invading, exiled, extra-galactic Sith, to Jacen becoming the hero and the villains being the Yuuzhan Vong, to what Vergere having taught Jacen transitioned from a Force technique to a philosophical restructuring.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 13, 2013
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  7. Cynical_Ben Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2013
    star 4
    Oh, we've got a while to go yet before that. It'll probably take me a week to get through the Edge of Victory books, and Star By Star is a massive thing taking up room on my desk. I need to get some sleep right now, though, it's 2am here and I've been up since 5 yesterday morning.
  8. Solent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    PT is decent enough for me.

    And Han Solo was Kurt Russell.
  9. Solent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    :rolleyes:
  10. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    Let's bring that full circle.

    I want to see Harrison Ford starring in a biographical movie, portraying Kurt Russell, and his life story.
  11. Solent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    Don´t know. I can kind of see Russell playing Han, but I just can´t see Ford playing McReady.
  12. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I, on the other hand, can totally see Harrison Ford as Jack Burton.
  13. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    What about McReady playing Indiana?
  14. Solent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    You should see the people who think she´s a great friend. Because good friends take advantage of your amnesia to sleep with their former´s best friend´s boyfriend. And that´s just from the games.

    On topic - Centerpoint was aimed at an attack force, AR targeted everybody and everything YV. And the point is not whether the YV deserved to be wiped out, but where that puts the heroes if they go along having alternatives. The thing that annoyed me is that Luke should have sabotaged AR before Vergere did. Instead he was shown very disgusted but allowing it to proceed. I could hardly believe that from Adama. From Luke? NO WAY.
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  15. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    To be fair, Triss was with Yennifer AND Geralt at various times.

    (I recommend reading the books once the publishers get off their butts and finish translating them).

    As for the Yuuzhan Vong and Alpha-Red, I think Luke was caught in the serious question of millions dying or billions. I suspect Luke would have stopped it before genocide once he had time to ponder it.

    Maybe he also assumed it'd be used on worlds occupied by the Vong before mass-use.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 13, 2013
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  16. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    The haze and murkiness over that was an ongoing irritant for me and it always came across as DR playing obvious games with the fans. They knew if they gave any clear indication it'd get picked up and analysed so they changed it frequently - there's the Vong of EOV2, far weaker than they appear, then there's the super-steamroller planet-smashing Vong of SBS, back to the over-extended Vong of DW, that stays in place just before TUF, then the Vong get a load of power-ups! Sure you can spend a fair amount of time fixing all of this but it's still a mess. There should have been far more fleet battles than they were in NJO too.
  17. Solent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    While there were hints Yenn and Triss had been more than friends, there was never any of them having a 3 way relationship. It´s clear (imho) Geralt - Triss only happened because he was trying to get over one of his break-ups with Yenn, but he just can´t get over her. Triss did fall for him though.

    Have already read all the saga, spanish translation finished some years ago. Book Triss has some really "what the hell" moments.

    Anyway, enough off-topic.

    It would still target civilians (well, shamed ones). You don´t do that if there are other options available. There were, Omas just wanted to end it the easy way. If we discard the clasical "always evil" races, I see nothing that can justify what´s basically a genocide.

    It did also show an interesting point, what do you do when people you are supposed to help and/or serve do something you consider wrong? In the PT, it can be said Jedi efforts to keep the Republic together and help the goverment did more harm than good. Would things have gone so bad if they had taken a firm stand against the political corruption instead of playing along and hope for things to resolve themselves (which kind of shows political savviness isn´t a Force skill)?
  18. AusStig Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2010
    star 4
    Would it have been as bad as the Star Trek we got AFTER the 90's? Enterprise s1-3/ sections of Voyageur? If not, THEN I SEE NO FLAWS IN THIS UNIVERSE!
  19. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Yes, wouldn’t it have been cool if he had something like that
  20. Cynical_Ben Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2013
    star 4
    According to Balance Point, he actually did. Musicians, drummers especially, are mentioned as being part of the sacrifice ceremonies both in space and on Duro itself. You can clearly see the drum being held in the picture we posted before. The other creature, the one we thought might be a harp, is described as being crustacean-like, but it's actual purpose is never really made clear from Leia's POV. I assume it's the home for their ceremonial living nooses, but I could be wrong.
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  21. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    my bold
    I have to disagree
  22. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    But did they know there were ”civilians” onboard the ships of the invading armada?

    Also, something that has been bugging me: How do the vong navigate? And since the galaxy is the Republics home turf why can’t they "dance" around them?


    P.s. what did the vong live of when they were travelling between their galaxy and "our"? Since all their technology is biological, everything needs to eat
  23. Cynical_Ben Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2013
    star 4
    The Vong did capture Obra-Sakai and all of its libraries in Dark Tide, and from that we can infer that they have knowledge of most of the galaxy's known hyperspace charts and such. Before that, I'm not sure. They probably had Nom Anor and other agents draw them a map.

    The journey between galaxies is something that hasn't been touched on all that much except in passing, at least through BP. I'm assuming that it has to do with keeping a feeder species or two aboard the bigger worldships and using them as the bottom of a food chain. But even then, it was implied to be a long and hard journey. As soon as they arrived in the GFFA, they started setting up as many feeder and breeding planets as they could terraform to replenish their forces. Keep in mind, also, that just because something is alive doesn't mean it feeds on the same things we would find edible. I believe that coralskippers are fed on asteroids and other space debris...

    Leia (or Mara, I can't remember off the top of my head) muses that the Vong must be explosive breeders to be so willing to throw away their forces. Really, it shows that, as strong as the Vong are, they aren't terrifically good tacticians when it comes to conservations of their own forces. One idea of an assault, against Fondor, is to literally throw coralskippers at the shipyards kamikaze style. It doesn't surprise me that, eventually, the Vong would begin to run low on manpower.
  24. LightsaberAccident Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 2013
    star 1
    I figured the answer is kinda obvious...

    Vong biots consume something >>> Vong biots digest something >>> Vong biots crap something >>> Vong biots consume (fill in the blank) >>> process repeats

    Incredibly efficient recycling and reprocessing systems would be necessary.

    [edit] I should add that you can't rule out the possibility they came across wayward stars, planetoids, or other astronomical bodies between galaxies. It's probably an understatement to say they would have been few and far between, but the Vong would have devoured the available resources to sustain or grow their fleet.
    Last edited by LightsaberAccident, Sep 13, 2013
  25. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    This is explained/shown in Destiny's Way when we start sitting in on Yuuzhan Vong leadership councils in which the Supreme Overlord dictates what will be done. They completely exhaust their reserves.

    Edit: as for energy needs -- the Yuuzhan Vong are capable of having artificial stars in their worldships, as we will see in the seedship, which should be more than enough to fuel a carbon cycle.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 13, 2013