Lit A Cynical Walk Through the NJO

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cynical_Ben, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    To invoke a Chris Rock line: "Not. Really." Certainly not when the work was already done for them.
    Gamiel likes this.
  2. Gamiel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    So a teenager believe that the old generation are stupid, don't have all the answers and are wrong about things. What will you tell me next? That there is gambling going on at Rick's?
    Last edited by Gamiel, Sep 16, 2013
  3. Gamiel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    I remember Species 8742, they had a nice non-humanoid design

    I have to disagree with you here; yes the PT jedi put impotence on listening to the Force but also looks for evidence, discuses and think. Well except for Qui-Gon

    but on this I fully agree
  4. Zeta1127 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    At least get the name right, its Species 8472.
  5. Gorefiend Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5

    Doesn't matter, Trek is dead anyway [face_dunno]
    [IMG]
  6. Solent Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    Kind of the opposite, imho, QGJ is the only one who ever mentions listening to the Force. The others just care more about their self-made code (think a priest caring more about church rather than god) and probe the Force for guidance about the future, instead of letting the Force guide them. Thus Palpatine manages to blind them, and they have little idea about how to behave from there on.
  7. Gamiel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    So what is your thoughts on the original post by Jedi Ben?

    B.t.w. is it to much to ask that people put full stops between the letters in the acronyms, or at least capitalise them? It makes it easier to read[face_peace]
  8. Solent Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    I wouldn´t say NJO Jedi were similar to PT ones. I got the impression that their hesitation early on was more due to not having clear how they should behave in a large scale conflict rather than not knowing what to make of the YV Force absence. Clone Wars didn´t end exactly well for them after all. Was a bit annoyed that the difference seemed to be scale for some of them. Kill a couple of guys with the saber? Ok. Kill lots of enemy combatants with other weapons? No, Jedi don´t do that. We think. Let us meditate about it. Etc.

    Things went south in FotJ, when Luke and co started behaving like their PT equivalents.

    Luke: Jacen can´t be redeemed, we have to kill him. (yeah, I know he has done far worse than killing my wife and I still tried to save him, but forget about that).
    Jaina: Ok

    Because trying to kill Anakin worked out so well for Yoda and OB1.
  9. DigitalMessiah Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    The NJO Jedi, prior to Vector Prime, aren't all that well represented. Their activities are mostly confined to fighting two dead Sith Lords, a Sith cult, and a bunch of Sith leviathans, with a single sentence alluding to them attempting to mediate during the Caamasi Crisis. Besides that last one, they were very much in a light/dark paradigm and their mediation during the Caamasi Crisis consisted of diplomacy which would evidently not prepare them for the Yuuzhan Vong.

    I think it makes perfect sense that Luke would be completely unsure of how to handle the situation. Yoda and Ben did not prepare him for this situation. He was trained to take down the Sith, and his Jedi Knights dealt with the fallout of the Sith accordingly with regard to Kun and Ragnos and cultists. And the Jedi weren't exactly successful in doing much to mediate the Caamasi Crisis, and that sort of diplomatic training was not part of the curriculum at Luke's praxeum.

    Edit: Plus the Shadow Academy or whatever, I dunno.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 16, 2013
  10. Gamiel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    And all other things in the YJK series and all the off-screen things that are alluded to in the YJK, etc., etc.
  11. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Neither were they failures at it though, despite being few in number, the crisis would have been more explosive without Jedi mediation.
    Gamiel likes this.
  12. DigitalMessiah Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    Speaking of the curriculum at Luke's praxeum, I'm not even entirely sure what it was now. As Havac has pointed out in the past, we don't ever actually see Jedi training under Luke in any of Kevin J. Anderson's books, whether they be novels or young adult. The training in the game Jedi Academy makes some sense to me, training through doing, presumably supplemented off-screen with the same sort of metaphysical instruction that Luke received on Dagobah.

    I feel like the Jedi Path has further muddied the waters here, because Luke found it shortly after he founded his praxeum, and it more or less lays out all that there is to know about the Jedi Order as it existed during the thousand year peace before the prequel films -- yet in Onslaught, either Luke or Corran wistfully remarks there's so much they don't know. Plus Luke has recovered more than one holocron -- in Jedi Academy Luke mentions consulting the holocron, but the Tedryn holocron was already melted -- and the records on the Chu'unthor.

    That means that the differentiation between Luke's Jedi and the prequel Jedi are a matter of deliberate choice by Luke, and it makes the fact that they became more like the prequel Jedi after the Yuuzhan Vong War all the more bizarre.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 16, 2013
  13. Gamiel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    To my understanding Plaptine destroyed most of the Galaxies concrete information on the way the jedi worked/trained. What Luke has got his hands on is either more or less damaged, very old or has an tendency to speak in riddles or prophesies.

    Since much of the stuff he has is older than Yoda you would think that he would emulate the pre-Ruusan order than the post...
    Last edited by Gamiel, Sep 16, 2013
  14. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    The recent Purge: Tyrant's Fist story gives a good indication of exactly how far Vader took the purge of the Jedi. In that respect, it isn't so unbelievable that there would be very little left - in galactic terms one or two sets of records is infinitesimally small.
    Last edited by Jedi Ben, Sep 16, 2013
  15. instantdeath Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    People really seem to be into this whole "NJO" thing. Wonder if I should read it one of these days? [face_thinking]
  16. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    If you really want to know why it's still being talked over a decade later, yes you should - and I'm not a fan of it, but I'm still telling you to read it!
  17. DigitalMessiah Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    But the Chu'unthor records were unknown and inaccessible to Vader, and date to 230 BBY. The Jedi Path physical book is identical to the in-universe book, so all the information in that was information Luke possessed. And the holocrons were also stuff Vader couldn't erase. I'm not sure what stuff Luke has that is older than Yoda besides the Tedryn holocron, and he had that for about a year at most.

    To say that the Empire, Sidious, or Vader erased records is an empty excuse. Jedi information that Luke has gotten has become like the bounty hunter on Ord Mantell or the Death Star plans because different writers have given Luke so much different Jedi information that there's no excuse that he doesn't know everything about Jedi training, ideology, and philosophy during that era preceding the prequel films. Especially with the choice to give Luke the Jedi Path book in 11 ABY.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 16, 2013
  18. Solent Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    Yes. But stop there. Things went really bad afterwards.
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  19. Solent Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    On the other side, I´d guess Yoda and Obi Wan´s ghosts told him most of that should warn him of what NOT to do when rebuilding the Jedi.
  20. Gamiel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    Everything they could salvage from the Great Jedi Library on Ossus

    Also "[...]he had that for about a year at most"; I did not know that, what happened to the Tedryn holocron?
  21. DigitalMessiah Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    Exar Kun melted it.

    I forgot about the library on Ossus -- even more Jedi knowledge.
  22. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8

    Yes. It took me long enough but here I am.

    As far as the Jedi, I have gotten the impression that since apparently Yoda and Obi-Wan's ghosts don't talk to Luke anymore, the Jedi have no idea what the hell they're doing.

    So, very different from the PT Jedi, who had a set code and followed it.
  23. DigitalMessiah Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    Luke is the Jedi equivalent of a teenager that just turned 18 and was immediately booted out of the house by Yoda and Obi-Wan.
  24. AusStig Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2010
    star 4
    They got a proper name in the mmo (yes it's real) it's Undine
  25. Zeta1127 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    I am aware of that name and Groundskeeper too, but I was going from a film and TV perspective since that was the name being used.