Lit A Cynical Walk Through the NJO

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cynical_Ben, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    I guess I just didn't expect a five year, nineteen book series to hinge on something that was wrong, and thus chose to interpret it in a way that wasn't wrong (which happens to be how the author of the controversial book said to interpret it).

    But whatever, I'm done talking about it.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Nov 11, 2013
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  2. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    You know, I'm now kind of wondering if the questions you ask are rhetorical rather than actual?

    Because the point of the last few posts was to give you a reasonably constructive set of reasons as to why these things tend to go the way they do.

    But if you don't actually want any such potential answers in the first place then just say so and I won't waste time for either of us.
    Last edited by Jedi Ben, Nov 11, 2013
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  3. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    I'm literally just done talking about it. There's absolutely no point. Everyone has made up their minds, no one is changing their mind.
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  4. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    THAT'S what you're aiming for?:eek: Then you're on a hiding to nothing. It really is a doomed endeavour.

    Put it this way: COW and I have discussed DE for over a decade, I love it, she loathes it and that isn't going to change! Where's the fun then for either of us? I think it lies in the dance, she may loathe the story but COW enjoys the interpretation I lay out and I have fun creating it. It's a dance we both know the steps to at this point and we'll likely do another round at some point. But to try change either of our outlooks to the opposite? Nah, not on the cards. But, at the same time, the lack of any particular stake is also what makes the discussion fun and worthwhile.

    Now where the hell has @Cynical_Ben got to? This is one whole lot LESS cynical a thread when he's around.
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  5. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    Well, I'm not sure if they always were, but they definitely were by NJO.

    That was one of the few times pre-NJO that Jedi have harmonized with the Force.

    Luke and his loyalists are the ones who show this the most, and it's mostly in NJO. Luke himself also shows this in the Dark Nest trilogy.

    And that is what she's saying...you just have to read everything she says in the entire book put together; not just any one sentence. Twisting up one sentence can make anyone look bad...take the whole of what she says, and that's what she means.
  6. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    Dec 16, 2012
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    Well that quote is rather often used in the Verger and over all NJO discussion and I was just wondering what she was meaning with it because I have hard to understand it, maybe it is just that my idea about the Force and how the new jedi order is/should have been is different then the actual reality
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  7. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    I've decided I'm going to write out very specifically what I think is going on in Traitor. But I don't have the book in front of me right now.
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  8. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    That's the thing though, that quote is probably used most often because it's the most "incriminating." It's what people use when they want to "prove" that Vergere was EVIL! :p
  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Given how much emphasis was put on "passion" as a source of power, in references to the Sith (I think beginning with the KoTOR game) I can see why "True greatness of any kind requires the surrender of control - passion that is guided, not walled away" might result in a certain amount of distrust of the person saying that.
  10. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    I can see how that could happen, but it's definitely not how Stover intended it.
  11. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    Dec 16, 2012
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    If that is what they are trying to do they are not succeeding. She just sounds like she is using a spice bong
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    When writing post-Traitor works, he also went out of his way to portray it being eulogized by darksiders, like Palpatine:

    "Do you remember," Palpatine said, drawing away from Anakin so that he could lean back in his seat, "how as a young boy, when you first came to this planet, I tried to teach you the ins and outs of politics?"
    Anakin smiled faintly. "I remember that I didn't care much for the lessons."
    "For any lessons, as I recall. But it's a pity; you should have paid more attention. To understand politics is to understand the fundamental nature of thinking beings. Right now, you should renember one of my first teachings. All those who gain power are afraid to lose it."
    "The Jedi use their power for good," Anakin said, a little too firmly.
    "Good is a point of view, Anakin. And the Jedi concept of good is not the only valid one. Take your Dark Lords of the Sith, for example. From my reading, I have gathered that the Sith believed in justice and security every bit as much as the Jedi-"
    "Jedi believe in justice and peace."
    "In these troubled times, is there a difference?" Palpatine asked mildly. "The Jedi have not done a stellar job of bringing peace to the galaxy, you must agree. Who's to say the Sith might not have done better?"
    "This is another of those arguments you probably shouldn't bring up in front of the Council, if you know what I mean," Anakin replied with a disbelieving smile.
    "Oh, yes. Because the Sith would be a threat to the Jedi Order's power. Lesson one."
    Anakin shook his head. "Because the Sith are evil."
    "From a Jedi's point of view," Palpatine allowed. "Evil is a label we all put on those who threaten us, isn't it? Yet the Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power.""
    "The Jedi's quest is for greater understanding," Anakin countered. "For greater knowledge of the Force-"
    "Which brings with it greater power, does it not?"
    "Well ... yes." Anakin had to laugh. "I should know better than to argue with a politician."
    "We're not arguing, Anakin. We're just talking." Palpatine shifted his weight, settling in comfortably. "Perhaps the real difference between the Jedi and the Sith is only in their orientation; a Jedi gains power through understanding, and a Sith gains understanding through power. This is the true reason the Sith have always been more powerful than the Jedi. The Jedi fear the dark side so much they cut themselves off from the most important aspect of life: passion. Of any kind. They don't even allow themselves to love."
    Except for me, Anakin thought. But then, I've never been exactly the perfect Jedi.
    "The Sith do not fear the dark side. The Sith have no fear. They embrace the whole spectrum of experience, from the heights of transcendent joy to the depths of hatred and despair. Beings have these emotions for a reason, Anakin. That is why the Sith are more powerful: they are not afraid to feel."
    "The Sith rely on passion for strength," Anakin said, "but when that passion runs dry, what's left?"
    "Perhaps nothing. Perhaps a great deal. Perhaps it never runs dry at all. Who can say?"
    "They think inward, only about themselves."
    "And the Jedi don't?"
    "The Jedi are selfless- we erase the self, to join with the flow of the Force. We care only about others ..."
    Palpatine again gave him that smile of gentle wisdom. "Or so you've been trained to believe. I hear the voice of Obi-Wan Kenobi in your answers, Anakin. What do you really think?"
    Anakin suddenly found the ballet a great deal more interesting than Palpatine's face. "I ... don't know any more."
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 11, 2013
  13. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    [IMG]
  14. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    We need that with Verger and Jacon
  15. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Vergere teaches Jacen nothing about the Force. All she talks about is epistemology.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Nov 11, 2013
  16. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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  17. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Now you know how Jacen felt.
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  18. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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  19. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    "Everything I tell you is a lie," is a statement completely detached from the Force. And she says it a lot more than she says "there is no dark side," which she quickly rephrases as "what you call the dark side."

    What does "the Force is One" mean, and why the heck does Mace Windu say it? Vergere doesn't say anything new about the Force.
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  20. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    But what dose she mean with that you find the what the jedi call dark side when you give yourself over wholly to the Force?

    Also, it is a lie
    Last edited by Gamiel, Nov 11, 2013
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    In the RoTS novel, the description of Mace's Vaapad style, as requiring one to "enjoy the fight, to give oneself over to the thrill of battle, the rush of winning" is also of it "leading through the penumbra of the dark side".

    Sounds a lot like what Ganner's doing in Traitor.

    And students of Vaapad seem to be prone to falling - Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba.
  22. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Mace Windu must follow the Potentium!
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    He's willing to use (carefully) his own passion in battle, at least. And it's portrayed as something extremely risky - that only a Master as disciplined as him can do- without putting themselves in considerable danger of falling.
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  24. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Obi-Wan is a secret Sith Lord, he trained Anakin and Luke how to Force choke.
  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Do we ever see him use Force Choke himself, in any of the books or TV episodes?

    If we do- it's possible that Lucas didn't intend it to be seen as a dubious technique.

    If not - it's more likely to be something Anakin and Luke figured out on their own.