Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cynical_Ben, Aug 17, 2013.
I'm confused I don't understand the correlation between "the force is one" and vaapad.
The point to be made is- Vaapad is basically a lightsaber technique built around Using Passion in Battle - and is portrayed as highly dangerous, morally, to the user - something that few can do without Falling.
So - Stover isn't exactly going out of his way to portray Vergere's ideas as a safe thing for a young Jedi to follow - in his later books.
Can't remember when he has Mace say "The Force is One" and in what context, though.
So vergere was teaching Jacen vaapad? How did she learn it? I'm so confused.
Vergere's teachings are about Using Passion.
Mace's fighting style is about Using Passion.
Mace's fighting style is dangerously close to the Dark Side, and several Jedi who have tried to learn it, ended up falling.
Conclusion- Stover seems to be hinting in his later books, that Using Passion puts one in some danger of falling.
So Mace Windu is a Sith Lord
Or, as close as a Jedi Master can come to being one, without actually "crossing the line".
In Book of Sith, Quinlan Vos's notes say: Could Mace be a Sith Lord? Nah. Still, I'll look into it.
It is okay, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are too.
What NJO book were we on before the discussion got derailed?
Book 1 of the Force Heretic Trilogy.
Qui-Gon created Vader when he told Anakin to "Feel, don't think. Use your instincts."
Not quite the same thing as "Use your anger" it must be said.
Who said use your anger?
Vergere, to Luke, in Destiny's Way.
"If it helps, you may use a component of that anger you first brought to this room. I'll trust that you're a gentleman and won't make it lethal."
I thought these quotas may help in the discussion in some way
Yoda: Yes, run! Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.
Luke: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.
Luke: But tell my why I can't...
Yoda: No, no! There is no "why".
Yoda: Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you.
What version of DE did you read?
Wow. Did I start a ****storm or was this one ongoing?
I didn't see Vergere teaching Jacen to be evil or that the Dark Side was acceptable. To me she was teaching him reality. The Dark Side exists. Everyone gets angry, telling a Jedi not to be angry is asking the impossible.
I saw a lot of yin and yang in her teachings. There is life and there is death. There is a Light Side and there is a Dark Side. There is joy and there is pain. None of these can exist without the other.
I didn't see Palpatine's teachings reflected in hers. Palpatine taught Anakin that anger is a good thing, that it gave him focus. That goes beyond teaching that anger is something that a person can expect to feel at some point.
As far as Vaapad, it was considered dangerous because the Jedi had to use his or her anger but still remain in complete control so as not to go dark; most people can't toe that line without crossing it. At least that was my understanding from both Shatterpoint and the ROTS novelization.
So you're saying that Luke was using the dark side earlier when he used his anger to question Vergere about her treatment of Jacen? Though I suppose you're taking the joke literally so I'm not sure what to make here.
It's been ongoing for ten years.
Exactly, what Vergere teaches Jacen is basically what Yoda taught Luke on Dagobah, just in a more unique manner. I always had a feeling of déjà vu with Vergere, it took me awhile to realize that she reminded me of Yoda.
She doesn't teach Jacen anything new about the Force (e.g. Yoda, as you say), and she teaches him about epistemology, specifically a form of fallibilism. Jacen can never know the absolute truth, but that's okay because that's true for everyone, so he has to decide what is closest to the truth that he can figure out himself, choose and act. He can't let this "not knowing absolute truth" paralyze him like it did earlier in the story.
Why do people always put life and death opposite of each other? I it is something that nature teach us it is: in death, life
Vergere just went to the somewhat drastic step of telling Jacen, "Their is no dark side," to knock him out of his self-doubt and fear, which is itself a path to the dark side.
To respond to your comments on the novel itself:
It's interesting that you note that she is teaching him that "everyone gets angry, telling a Jedi not to be angry is asking the impossible" because this will be brought up again in Destiny's Way directly.
As for the yin and yang, I guess more broadly you could call it dialectical monism, complementary opposites that are defined by each other. In Buddhism it's called emptiness, because nothingness requires existence to define itself and vice-versa, so it's distinct from "nothing." It seems that what Jacen gets out of it, and perhaps what Vergere intended, was this idea of interdependent origination -- we're all waves in the ocean. We're all one -- the ocean -- and we're expressed as discrete entities the same way that waves are expressed in the ocean. But we're all one. And that's the root of compassion. That two are one. All is one. "That knowledge is the seed of greatness."
Or very low SAN
Hey all, checking back in. I saw the alerts from the thread, but I had no idea that everything'd blown up in the post-DW light. I've put my thoughts in a spoiler tag, since I do enjoy reading everyone's thoughts, but I'd like to steer everyone toward the books we've got ahead, not the ones already behind us. As DM said, this is ground that's been covered over and over again for the last ten years, we'll not come up with any new revelation that others missed.
Spoiler: My Thoughts
Vergere is a fascinating character in a big sense, and what people seem to miss a lot of the time is that her philosophy doesn't just come from Stover. He fleshed it out, yes, wrapping it in that magnificent prose of his, but keep in mind, he was writing from an outline, one Luceno came up with, approved by the editors at Del Ray, and further expanded on in Destiny's Way. Vergere's philosophy was not written to be a philosophy of evil. The interpretation of it, both IU and OOU, has become that, but what she says and does in Traitor isn't teaching Jacen in any way to become a Sith Lord.
Anywho, to get back to where I am in the actual series, I'm still working through Remnant. It's an oddly formatted book, a stylistic throwback to Bantam in terms of the actual prose, with no chapter breaks at all, at least not in my copy, which makes it a bit hardy to read. And I've noticed a lot of little continuity niggles, not major things, but little bits of characterization or mentions of events that seem to act like most of the books post-Star By Star have either not happened or happened slightly differently. Nom Anor discovers the Jeedai heresy for the first time, after already doing so in (I believe) Rebel Stand. Jaina and Jag are back to playing lip tag like they were in Rebel Dream. Han and Leia's relationship is just being repaired, again, just like Rebel Dream. The only major characters who didn't take a half-step backward are Luke and Mara,and that's because they're both really bland. And I have no idea where Saba's new "life sense" came from, or why Tahiri is having mental feedback now rather than any time before this, but I haven't finished yet, so, no spoilers, please.
But they're really minor things, most of which can be handwaved and glossed over. Nom Anor is entertaining, as always, and I like being able to see the Empire more in-depth. I'll cover the rest of my thoughts in my full review after I've finished the book.
The continuity in the Force Heretic series is subpar, even within the context of the series, let alone the EU as a whole. Wait til you get to Refugee, where the Empire of the Hand never existed and Baron Fel is chillin' on Csilla.
It's possible that "Red Sky, Blue Flame" set that up though, I haven't read that in over ten years so I can't really say. Maybe I should re-read it.
I still think we need an Empire of the Hand book to show us what went in with them.