main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

Lit A Cynical Walk Through the NJO

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cynical_Ben, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    That is far from the biggest plot hole. Also Nom Anor discovered the Shamed Ones rebellion twice!

    My point is that I don't doubt that Luceno and Shelly Shapiro and whoever had most or all of the major story beats plotted out in advance, but within that framework some plot holes and contradictions will inevitably fall through the cracks once you get a dozen different people writing their part of the story independently. I'll still take that process over the way LOTF and FOTJ were planned in advance, though, which was not at all.
     
    son_of_skywalker03 likes this.
  2. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Force Heretic is the Maw of plot holes and continuity errors.
     
  3. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    C-3PO can translate the Yuuzhan Vong language because it's just like some random language spoken in the Outer Rim, despite developing in a different galaxy.

    That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
     
  4. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Eh that's where extraterrestrial and extragalactic don't mean much in distinction. He can translate the Ewoks too but they're supposedly this unknown species.

    Which I suppose requires justification that the EU has since provided that Endor is the island from Lost with people crashing there frequently and presumably influencing their language sufficiently for Threepio to translate it.
     
  5. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    How long did it take for him to learn their language?
    I take it that you have not seen Fox News
     
    GrandMasterKatarn likes this.
  6. CommanderDrenn

    CommanderDrenn Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2013
    What about 3PO knowing Kesh in FotJ?
     
  7. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2013
    This. Very much this. I'd thank everyone involved for the respectful, insightful, stimulating discussion involved in this thread, but that would make this a very long post. NJO is a divisive series, to say the least, and the fact that we really never had the thread break down into strawmanning or name calling, or even just passive-aggressive sarcasm, makes it better than about 90% of the rest of the discussion on the series out there. It's one of the reasons I love this board so much, the posters here by and large are respectful, thoughtful, and honest without posturing or being facetious.
     
  8. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Having a keyboard with which to type, I think the NJO is likely the most planned out thing from start to finish ever done in Star Wars. Yeah, even more than the movies, sorry to blow it Lucas!

    Based upon what behind the scenes material I've read/heard, e.g. interviews with the participating authors and the ERC information, I think the general story arc was planned. Some iteration of a dwarf "power behind the throne" guy being melted seems to have been present from day one, when Anakin Solo the PROPHESIED LIGHTBRINGER melted a guy with his LIGHT (although I suppose day one might be hyperbole as it may have been absent from the earliest story in which Anakin kills Jacen). Vergere appeared that early on as well.

    I don't think the plots of the individual novels were necessarily planned out. They were given milestones to hit in the novel, as well as the general climate of the uberplot and knowledge of what preceded and will follow. Troy Denning was given the task of depicting Anakin Solo's death and the fall of Coruscant to the YV, but how those things happened were entirely up to him. He could have had Anakin die defending Coruscant. He didn't have to have Viqi Shesh kidnap Ben temporarily -- I don't think Ben was even in the series outline but was a late addition. His role in the plot is purely fan -- and author, I guess? -- service.

    I doubt any author "deviated" from the script or had the latitude to do so beyond emphasizing certain things in their novel that weren't necessarily important to the series as a whole at the expense of the series plot. But that's probably entirely subjective or otherwise unknowable!
     
    _Catherine_, Zeta1127 and Contessa like this.
  9. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    o_O In what way do you mean "most planned out thing from start to finish ever done in Star Wars"?
     
  10. LightsaberAccident

    LightsaberAccident Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 26, 2013
    I'm kinda bemused with the idea of Anakin getting fed up with his brother's navel-gazing and holding down the Force Grip key when he's looking at Jacen for a couple seconds too long.
     
  11. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    I mean nothing has had the level of advance planning in Star Wars that the NJO had.

    In said iteration, Jacen had evidently turned to the dark side. LOTF/FOTJ mined abandoned and rejected story ideas from the NJO.

    Incidentally, in the earlier iterations of the NJO, Anakin was the navel-gazer.

    But the Yuuzhan Vong were originally the Lost Tribe of the Sith, more or less, and Anakin had his Vestara love interest which drove Jacen and Jaina to the dark side out of jealousy. The Yuuzhan Vong as Sith was rejected by Lucas while the Solo twins turning to the dark side was presumably abandoned because it's terrible. I'm not sure what the thinking is in taking rejected and bad and thus abandoned ideas for the next story.
     
    Zeta1127, Revanfan1, Contessa and 2 others like this.
  12. LightsaberAccident

    LightsaberAccident Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 26, 2013
    What the...
     
  13. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Perhaps the distinction between NJO and what followed was that when they had these planning sessions, they actually filtered out the bad ideas. Someone at Lucasfilm or Del Rey wisely pointed out it was a terrible idea and they dropped it, but that person was on vacation when they finalized the uberplot for LOTF.
     
    Revanfan1 likes this.
  14. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    I am afraid I don't understand what you mean. Maybe if I ask you to compare NJO to the Thrawn Trilogy
     
  15. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    The Thrawn trilogy is three books by the same author.

    The NJO is a nineteen book series released over five years involving eleven different authors (plus other people whom didn't author books), initially planned out in 1998 and completed in late 2003.

    Edit: Whoops, forgot WJW. Twelve different authors!
     
    Force Smuggler and Contessa like this.
  16. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Now I understand you. Thanks for clearing it up
     
  17. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Yeah, it's become kind of noticeable that, after the intense planning and brainstorming of the NJO, a "Sure, what the hell, first draft is good enough!" mentality seems to have taken over the editing department. It's like DR turned into Kruger Industrial Smoothing all of a sudden.

    "I was, uh, thinking about turning the hero of the last series into a villain and killing him."

    "Whatever!"
     
    _Catherine_, Zeta1127 and Revanfan1 like this.
  18. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Or was there perhaps simply a different ethos? Whatever I may think of NJO, there is at least a sense that the various authors saw it in collaborative terms - though I never liked Denning's revision of Keys' EOV in the SBS summary, but that's a rare exception.

    In contrast, on the likes of LOTF, it was, by most accounts, evident in the material that this shared outlook was lacking, particularly with regard to Traviss and Denning's work. Allston? He may have been trying his best, but 1 man can't do a dance designed for 3 no matter how good he is.

    An essential aspect of filtering out bad ideas is that those who advocate them are open to the notion that it isn't as good as they thought and they're not so attached to it as to fight tooth-and-nail for it. Which is my guess as to what happened on LOTF, neither Denning or Traviss had any interest in compromising their ideas and there was no sufficient editorial club to force the issue. Or, it may well have been Traviss pushing a certain direction that Denning resisted and felt he couldn't give in on?
     
  19. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2013
    Just wanted to pop back in to wish all of my forum friends a very happy Christmas; and even if you don't celebrate it, enjoy the time off work and such.

    Also, a though for what my next thread will be. I've alluded many times to my love affair with the Allston/Stackpole duo and the X-wing series in general. However, I'd previously owned only two of the books in the series, Rogue Squadron and Solo Command, and had read all of the others via the library years ago. Now, thanks to my mom reading the Amazon wish list I sent her, I own the entire nine-book series, and I'd like to propose the idea for a new thread: Cynically Reliving the X-Wing series!
     
  20. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I'd like that. Except I think that they are putting a halt on the read through threads. Or are debating the merits of them or something.
     
  21. Grade

    Grade Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2013
    Yes, please.

    Like the reviews of NJO books, but since I love X-Wing series, I might try to keep up with you!
     
  22. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Suggestion - just change the title of this thread. We all know where to find it after all, but there will be a reduced level of cynicism around the X-Wing series.

    Second, you're including the comics aren't you?

    Finally, there is,technically a 10th book now!
     
    Revanfan1 and Force Smuggler like this.
  23. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2013
    First, I could, if I had a mod around to change it for me. Second, I don't have any of the comics, so, probably not unless I can get my hands on the entire series relatively quickly and cheaply. Third, good point, I still need to pick up the PB of Mercy Kill. I keep thinking I already have it, but, no, that's Knight Errant... I'll probably PM a mod and ask whether going into a new series would be permisso, and if so, would they kindly change the threat title for me.
     
  24. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    The entire XWRS run has been Omnibused. Volume 3 you can get used on Amazon for like $4 but for some reason the first two look pretty pricey right now. There's also an extra XWRS special in the Other Sons of Tatooine Omni but that's going for about $4 as well.
     
  25. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    You have to do Invasion if you're going to do the X-Wing comics. Even though it isn't really relevant to the NJO besides being set during it.