Lit A Cynical Walk Through the NJO

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cynical_Ben, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    I know, right? That would definitely help, sometimes. Especially in books that have a lot of planet-hopping.
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  2. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    $ I would imagine. But would be cool and helpful. Agreed. We need a map of everything to the UR.
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  3. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    I think the last one that we got tied to a series was the map for Knight Errant. Which was a thing of beauty.

    Jason Fry said that the galaxy mapping project (which made it to the Expansion Region) is on hold for now, mainly due to time constraints and the regular cartographer not being available.
  4. JediKnight75 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2011
    star 3
    What did Moran write? I like the inclusion of Bear. I just finished his book and thought it was pretty enjoyable and had a good amount of depth. Stewart is another good kne , but it's been a while since I've read Yoda. I haven't gotten to Dark Empire yet, but have read Veitch's Tales of the Jedi comics. I enjoyed them, but I'm not that picky. What were your thoughts on those. Also I'm curious to hear more of your thoughts on Luceno -- both within and out of the NJO. Lastly, how to you view Allston, John Ostrander, and John Jackson Miller. For me I feel that at least Allston tried to write more than just tie in fiction. The other two, while I enjoy them, I'm not sure what I'd say in this context.

    I want to also, talks about Zahn real quick; mostly because he seems to be popular. I enjoy him a lot and think he has a good grasp on the Star Wars universe, but I feel that he's trying to write tie in fiction. His writing appears to be very much aware that the story is in a shared universe. Not that this is a bad thing; I usually enjoy his books and he does seem to do some good character work. I don't feel that this is a criticism since it is what I believe he's going for. So while they may not be groundbreaking books, they're usually enjoyable and feel like Star Wars.

    The NJO had no need to world build since the Bantam books had already done that so thoroughly. There comes a point where there isn't too much of a reason to do so and I believe that the NJO recognized this. The authors definitely were aware of this, which is demonstrated by how alive the universe feels. When Bantam era characters are introduced, they feel like the same people ( mostly, but still far better that the LOTF and FOTJ versions) whim we already know. We have a clear sense that this is still the Bantam universe that we already know well. Thus world building wasn't important. All that mattered was getting the audience invested in the plot and concerned for the universe they love.

    Like you mention in your second paragraph there was world building in terms of the Vong, which were very well developed and held a lot of depth. It would have been easy to write them simply as brutal warriors with no more cultural elements. In stead we learned about their culture, society, and religion. We also had a chance to see the point of veiw of many Vong coming from different parts of their society. That went a long way in fleshing them out.Furthermore, we didn't only see evil Vong, but characters like Nen Him who was very easy to like. The authors realized that good villains couldn't be one dimensional and they developed the Vong accordingly.


    I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on Stephen Barnes since his books isn't very popular. I agree about Karen Traviss. When it comes to writing, her books are some of the better Star Wars books. Her only problem was going to far away from what was established about the universe and redefining important aspects of the setting. But disregardimg that, her books are pretty enjoyable.
  5. _Catherine_ Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Moran wrote three short stories for KJA's anthologies, one about Labria and two about Boba Fett. They're all really, really good and completely transcend the limitations of what they are.
  6. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Your kidding right, Zahn, with the sole exception of Stackpole could not be less a sharing author if he tried. He is known for pretty much retconing or ignoring anything he does not like even to the point off saying people are liars if they say there is more than one Hand.
  7. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    The SW EU has never had that great a track record on collaboration:

    Zahn refuses to work with Veitch, later takes a dump on all the books he decided he didn't like in HoT
    Stackpole follows his master in doing over KJA
    NJO continues the tradition: Denning does over Keyes, WJW does over Stover.
    DN: Denning does over TUF, what Luceno ever did to him I have no idea!
    LOTF: Allston does his best to ensure some sort of sanity between Denning and Traviss
    FOTJ: Oh, who gives a crap anymore?

    For all I feel entirely burnt out on the SW EU, if the new EU has a truly collaborative ethos that all its participants honour then yes, it could end up as something quite special.
    Last edited by Jedi Ben, Jun 16, 2014
  8. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    I love the way you describe this because I get such a funny mental picture.

    DENNING: Nothing can stop the Jedi, okay? Nothing! I'm giving them blasters too, and basically making them commandos. That way I'm sure nothing can stop them!
    TRAVISS: Super-powered soldiers? That's an unfair advantage. I'll put a stop to that by having my Mandos make fun of your Jedi!
    ALLSTON: Guys.
    DENNING: Oh, yeah? Well I'll give Leia some OOC comments about how clones don't matter or something just for meanies. And Luke disses Fett!
    TRAVISS: Well Fett's in a relationship with Daala now, m'kay? He's that awesome.
    ALLSTON: Hey, guys.
    DENNING: Well, to show how awesome the Jedi are, Luke will pin Jacen to his chair!
    TRAVISS: Random Mando kneecaps Caedus!
    DENNING: Caedus wipes out squads of Mandalorians!
    ALLSTON: GUYS.
    TRAVISS: Oh, yeah? Random unrelated plotline so we can follow Mirta and Boba!
    DENNING: Well now, Mirta cares about her appearance so much she gives up info because they threaten to deform her!
    ALLSTON: Guys!
    TRAVISS: Tahiri's a naval officer now!
    DENNING: No, she's a Sith apprentice!
    ALLSTON: To kark with it!
  9. dokratr0 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2013
    star 1
    I got to your last line laughing - and then I got sad.:(
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  10. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    RF - Oh that's brilliant. [face_laugh]

    But yeah, D has a point about the last line, sad that Allston's gone.
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  11. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Yeah, I did feel a little sad when I remembered Allston was gone too. :(
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  12. Sniper_Wolf Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2002
    star 4
    So basically the LOTF promo video of Allston and Denning arguing over a happy or sad ending?
  13. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    Apparently, that wasn't the case - Stackpole and KJA are apparently buddies, according to a recent panel where they discussed the JAT and I, Jedi.
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  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Would fit with the way Corran eventually decides Luke was right all along, about a lot of things.
  15. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    This thread has gotten boring.

    Someone explain to me why there's a scene in Traitor in which Vergere says there's no dark side. What is the significance of this scene to the book? What does it mean? Why does it exist? Why is it important? Or is it?
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Jun 16, 2014
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  16. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    It means that my theory that Vergere is secretly a follower of Kreia's teachings is absolutely true.
  17. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    "Well. Okay then."

    Though I don't recall Kreia saying there's no dark side, and you've left out why this is significant to Traitor. :D
  18. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    Because Vergere - much like Kreia - involved herself in both Jedi and Sith teachings. IIRC, Vergere makes the point to Jacen (it's been a while) that the Vong are supposedly a race cut off from the Force and yet they somehow are still living without it. She's teaching Jacen that there's no "evil" side - Light or Dark, the Force is a manipulative power with its prophecies and visions that lead to great disaster, and ultimately that the intelligent beings of the galaxy don't need it.

    (Of course, this was speculation I made years ago, prior to LOTF, so take what you will from it :p Mostly, I just thought that Kreia's perspective was a unique and interesting one that deserved more appearances in Star Wars)
  19. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Now the thread is getting interesting.

    Do you think this is a message that Traitor intended to convey, or is it a post hoc message which arises out of the ocean of Star Wars material? Specifically, without KOTOR 2 and Kreia, would you have gotten this message from Vergere?

    Do you think that Jacen learned this? How does it inform the climax? For instance, do you think that Ganner exemplified this in some way?

    Personal thoughts: I don't agree that this is Vergere's message, but a few weeks ago in discussion it did occur to me that the Yuuzhan Vong are a microcosm of what Kreia was hoping to accomplish. But ultimately the Yuuzhan Vong weren't completely outside of the Force, though their ostensible absence from it was more or less caused by a "Force wound" which was created by the disruption of the symbiosis on Yuuzhan'tar (interestingly, at one point in Traitor the Yuuzhan Vong home world is said to be so ancient that its name was lost...?) which killed the emergent property of that symbiosis: the ego or personality that was Yuuzhan'tar. The Living Force of the Yuuzhan Vong and all the associated Vonglife collectively resulted in this emergent property, and when they eschewed the symbiotic lifestyle it was killed, and this action resulted in their failure to generate Living Force altogether beyond a dim vestige of it, "Vongsense."

    My point in asking the question is that I think that every single "mysterious" thing which Vergere says in Traitor is actually explained through the course of the novel, frequently being rephrased or even repeated verbatim before an explanation is provided. With regard to what Vergere's point is in the scene in which she says there's no dark side, I think the actual importance of her claim there is much less than it is given by fans, considering how it sees no repetition in the novel unlike a lot of other, more important lessons. There's a larger point which is being made which does see repetition. It bookends the book in both prologue and epilogue, among the umpteen other mentions.

    I suppose another way of phrasing the question is to ask what does "the Force is one" mean? This is a much more important idea not just in Traitor but in all of Stover's work. Mace Windu writes it in his journal in Shatterpoint. I don't remember if it appears in ROTS or Shadows of Mindor. But this is what Vergere says during the dark side scene, and it sees repetition again in the novel.

    And this is an open question to anyone to provide their answer to either/or, i.e. what is the purpose of the scene in which Vergere reveals the "shameful secret of the Jedi" and what impact does it have on the narrative and/or what does "the Force is one" mean?

    Edit #253213127: I've just realized since Legends has seen the final word on the New Jedi Order era (the final word was said back in 2005 really and sadly), my belief that Ganner Rhysode was a padawan of Kyle Katarn remains unbroken.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Jun 16, 2014
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  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Doesn't seem to have survived Lucas' edit. Then again, Lucas' Force is different.
  21. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Oh, you read the earlier draft? I guess Lucas deleted it from Shadows of Mindor, too?

    Snipped.
    Last edited by Havac, Jun 18, 2014
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Nope, he didn't get the chance. Stover's sneering dismissal of the sides of the Force is right there in Mindor as per standard procedure. While its absence from the one novel Lucas line-edited is surely nothing more than coincidence.

    The significance of that incident, really, is in its uniqueness: assuredly no one else has ever spoken to Lucas about the Force, nor have the results of these meetings ever been written down in books. And obviously Lucas has never been quoted on the subject. Otherwise we might have reason to think that Lucas would find some of Vergere's statements to be inaccurate.
  23. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    why cant they do another kotor game? i mean a real kotor game. i miss it. the depth of kotor 2 is sorely missed in gaming, espcially starwars gaming
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  24. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Yes pls.
  25. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Also he is the son of Starkiller and Juno Eclipse.

    He was born to be a legend.
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