Lit A Cynical Walk Through the NJO

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cynical_Ben, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    Oct 29, 2005
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    Well, I think the outside perspective is that Kreia is wrong about her interpretation of the Force - she sees it as some independent, meddling entity that plays the inhabitants of the universe like puppets and fools; that the universe would be better off without it, with living beings exercising free will. I guess the Mandos might go along with that, but that's a little too easy; maybe the better fit would be the Corellians, with their own peculiar mythology and, within the context of the movies (if we take Han as a reasonable example of a Corellian) deep skeptics.
    Of course, the punch line with the Vong is that they weren't really severed from the Force, and in the end were just within the purview of prophecy.

    Back to Vegere, I think she holds a role similar to how Lumiya was in LOTF (at least in the first novel) - trying to guide Jacen onto her own path. If we add in her appearance in Legacy... hmmm. Well, that's probably leaving the bounds of the discussion. Suffice to say, at the very least she represented heretical notions regarding the Force, and the idea that Jacen became interested in variants other than the standard Jedi actually fits, IMO.
  2. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
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    I'm mostly interested in sticking with Traitor and exploring where people develop their ideas about it. It seems to be tough at this juncture since so many other stories are influencing the perception that people have of it.

    But I would argue that Vergere isn't trying to guide Jacen onto her own path, or anyone else's path, at all: the question that sees the most repetition is "who is Jacen Solo?"

    "I do have an answer. But it's my answer, not yours."

    "Ask yourself. Where else can one look?"

    "The only power I have -- the only power any of us have -- is to be who we are. That's what I'm going to do here. Be who I am."

    Vergere didn't influence who Jacen came out of the story as anymore than Jacen influenced who Ganner became. γένοι' οἷος ἐσσὶ μαθών
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Jun 16, 2014
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  3. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    Oct 29, 2005
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    Well, I'm at my limit without digging through boxes, as I put the majority of my SW books in storage. :p
  4. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    I guess just read RC-1991's essays on eleven thirty-eight or something iunno. He wrote about Vergere AND Kreia!
  5. JediMatteus Force Ghost

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    Sep 16, 2008
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    my problem with Vergere is that she is ruthless much of the time, and that she gives Jacen permission to be the galaxy's gardner and cull who he wants to cull. To me this eventually sets jacen us for the dark side.
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  6. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    I feel like it is Obi-Wan's fault that Luke turned because he told him to blow up the Death Star and kill millions. And he has a pretty bad track record too with Anakin. And he's a liar.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Jun 17, 2014
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  7. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

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    Jun 16, 2007
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    Luke never turned though, he was just pretending.
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  8. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Maybe Jacen was pretending too. I mean, that would explain how he was redeemed before he died per Jaina, but then was a jerkass to Luke as a ghost. He was just in character.
  9. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    I haven't read the book in ages, but I kind of remember the toilet flushing thing. Well, it's entertainment, I guess. None of the books other Traitor truly pretended to be "thoughtful", did they? In that case, it's just a different approach of dealing with the content, a more "comical" one. The question whether toilet comedy clashes with a "thoughtful", "witty" approach to fundamentalism isn't much different from the question whether toilet comedy is suitable for a story in which the toilet-plagued villains are actually pretty brutal killers. At least there wasn't a "Han shot first" joke in the book.
  10. Cynical_Ben Force Ghost

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    Aug 12, 2013
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    I wasn't a huge fan of DW when I first read it. Can't find my archive of my original post, so I don't remember why. I'll look back through the thread and find it.
  11. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Sorry that I'm squatting in your thread, Ben.
  12. Cynical_Ben Force Ghost

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    Aug 12, 2013
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    Hey, be my guest, I don't mind. I enjoy reading the discussion that's gone on for the past few pages; it's way over my head, but it's still interesting. :p

    Also, found my old DW post.
  13. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
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    What is over your head?

    I was trying to make it accessible by asking people to explain their understanding.
  14. Cynical_Ben Force Ghost

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    I did follow a lot of the discussion through the ideas, I just didn't have anything helpful to add since everyone else has clearly thought so much more about this than I have.
  15. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    you should have chimed in with a non sequitur made in bad faith
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  16. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    About the title - is Destiny's Way part of a line in the book? I love it when they do that. Turning Point would actually have been a pretty bland, mechanical description of what the book's content is; a bit like calling the final book "Finale" or something.
  17. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    I think almost every major NJO book did it–Vector Prime, Balance Point, Star by Star, Traitor, and The Unifying Force, at least. I can't recall if Destiny's Way did or not.
  18. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
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    I think the the third book of Sword of the Jedi was going to be titled that.

    The words destiny and way do not appear in sequence in the novel, but destiny appears quite a bit. c-c-c-combo breaker
  19. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    Oh surely it would have been Dark Finale, wouldn't it.
  20. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    I was listening to the Destiny's Way audio book today, and WJW actually beats you over the head with the idea because both Leia and Luke say it's the turning point immediately after they sense Jacen in the Force.

    Because everyone read the series bible and knew Jacen was the main character of the series.
  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
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    That series had a main character?
  22. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
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    DR: Would you agree that the NJO series is Jacen’s story— the tale of his coming of age, and the passing of the Jedi crown, as it were, from Luke to Jacen?

    SR: Absolutely. It was our intention from the beginning to make this Jacen’s story, ultimately.

    LW: Jacen is the focus of the NJO, but I don’t think that makes it his story exactly. Or not only his story. Just as the films are about Anakin’s rise, fall, and redemption through his son, so, too, we wanted the books to be multigenerational, with a strong role for both the original cast from the films and the children of Han and Leia—who are, after all, the future.

    SS: I would add that Jacen isn’t taking the “crown” from Luke. If anything, he is serving as a catalyst to help Luke grow into his next level of leadership.

    JL: To me, the NJO is about the evolution of the Jedis’ perception of the Force and the rise of a new generation of Jedi Knights to be the vanguard in allying themselves with a more inclusive, more unifying vision of the Force.


    This round robin was a goddamn crystal ball. And I copied the colors from the PDF because I'm bored. And yeah, I still have the CD in my drive from whenever I last quoted the round robin, because I don't use my CD drive.
  23. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

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    Jun 16, 2007
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    LOL :(
  24. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
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    Of course, the one that turned the answer around back to Luke is the one that was in charge of LOTF.



    I think this is more LOLworthy
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Jun 17, 2014
  25. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

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    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Luke's next level of leadership is retconning his crippling poisoning.
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