Lit A Cynical Walk Through the NJO

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cynical_Ben, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. Riv_Shiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2014
    star 1
    Yes.
  2. _Catherine_ Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    RotS switches to present tense and second person.

    Also was Ganner's hair that long in the book?

    Also also not to denigrate Ganner's character development in Traitor because it is pitch perfect, but I kind of got the impression in DT that Stackpole intended Ganner's arc to already be complete-ish. I may be misremembering but I think there's something after his face gets scarred about how he was a changed man and having his good looks marred helped him become more mature, which even as I'm typing it now looks really stupid.
  3. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Yeah but in Traitor he realizes that he was denying the truth of himself by not being a flashy play actor.
  4. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    I don't think it was supposed to be, no.

    I think his arc in Traitor was more about him realizing how to actually be a hero, whereas his arc in the DT duology was more about realizing he's not a hero. In Traitor it's about him realizing that even though he's not a hero, he has to play the hero, so someone else–Jacen–can survive to be the hero at a later date. Or something like that. You have to remember that when he first appears in Traitor (and even before, in Star by Star) he's pretty depressed all the time. Remember his line in SBS about why he has to be the leader of the strike team?

    "The leader has to be someone they won't be too worried about—and someone they'll believe could be duped by a traitor. Someone like me."

    He was pretty much at an all-time low in his life because his hopes were pretty much crushed in the DT duology (which pretty much shows how shallow he was at the time, given that the scarring of his face was enough to do that). But yeah, I don't think that Ganner's arc was necessarily done in the DT duology.
  5. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Ganner wasn't upset by the scar. He chose to keep it to symbolize his scarred pride. Because Stackpole is deep like that.

    Ganner could have had the scar removed.

    Traitor is about Jacen and Ganner realizing who they are. After Ganner was humbled, he denied who he was in trying be a better man and a better Jedi. In the well of the world brain, he finds the end of trying. There is no try.
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  6. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Ah yeah. Well, it's been about 2 years since I read those books so my memory's a little foggy. That makes more sense.

    And this.
  7. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    All is dance. All is. All does? Do or do not.
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  8. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    It is not important at all and that is the punch line. Verger is actually the trickster who lies and spit fortune cookies without actually saying anything of deeper truth. She is not the wise fool or hiding truth with riddles, she is the joker and that so many don't realise it is the greatest trick she will ever play.
  9. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Do you really believe that?

    [IMG]

    "He was born to be a legend."
    "Maybe he was." Jacen sighed. "Ganner's Last Stand. Too bad nobody saw it."
    "Nobody? You mean, nobody from the New Republic. Let me tell you of a vision I have had," she said. "An image of the far future. It came to me through the Force some time ago, but only now have I come to understand it. In that vision, I saw a new figure in the mythology of the Yuuzhan Vong. Not a god, not a demon, but an invincible giant called `the Ganner.' "
    "You're kidding, right?"
    "Not at all. They will come to believe that the Ganner, the Jedi Giant, is the Guardian who stands before the Gate to the Lands of the Dead. It is the Ganner -- and his forever-blazing blade of light who stands eternal guard to prevent the shades of the dead from passing back through the Gate, to trouble the living. The curious part of the vision" -- she chuckled a little -- "as if it could be any more curious than it is already -- is the words engraved on the stone of the Gate, in an arc above the great head of the Ganner: they're in Basic."
    "In Basic? Why would they be in Basic?"
    "Who can say? Such visions are enigmatic, and rarely come equipped with footnotes."
    "What does it say?"
    Vergere spread her hands, palms up, a shrug of helpless incomprehension. "In deep-carved block letters, it reads: NONE SHALL PASS."
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Jun 19, 2014
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  10. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    No, not one bit but I thought it as a to nice, crazy theory to not share it.
    Last edited by Gamiel, Jun 19, 2014
  11. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    *Begins writing up petition for Ganner to be in Episode VII*
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  12. JediKnight75 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2011
    star 3

    Such quotes remind me why I love the NJO so much. That makes me sad that I probably won't get a chance to reread them for another year :(
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  13. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Ganner's death was a blessing in disguise since it precluded his character from being utterly derailed and then dying by poison dart or something stupid.
  14. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    [face_laugh] Yes. Yes.
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  15. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I think the same is true of Vergere's death. I mean, it's bad enough reading her mischaracterization in SW Legacy #18 and The Essential Guide to Warfare; imagine how bad it would be if she was still alive in Dark Nest and Legacy of the Force. She'd probably just replace Lumiya and the series would be even more confusing because then you couldn't even attempt to justify her suicidal motivation through revenge.

    My new fancasting for Ganner (thanks to Alan Wake) is Ilkka Villi.
  16. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    That would have been truly awful. Thank you, WJW. Thank you.

    I...could see that.
  17. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Ironically (or not, when you think about it) we have Shelly Shapiro to thank for Vergere's death.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Jun 19, 2014
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  18. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Well...good. I guess. I guess you can't fault her for LOTF because it wasn't her idea. But at the same time you can because she let it pass, so...I guess she should share the blame? But at least she prevented total disaster. :p
  19. Alixen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2003
    star 4
    I'll go claim the one over there, you keep this one. Better to live as a coward than die the hero. Buh'bye! #ScoundrelFoLyfe:p


    Actually, to go back a page, that would have made an utterly amazing Infinities comic series. After all, we now know that he was only in his sixties. Look at Dooku in his eighties. Despite the slow pace of his duel with Vader, in-universe he was likely just out of practice, and would still have been just as capable Soresu practitioner as during the Clone Wars. But rather than Yoda, I would have taken him having Leia as an apprentice. As she effectively has all her fathers fire, her mothers tongue, and their stubbornness combined, that would have led to an awesome Master-Padawan dynamic. Maybe even a reconciliation with a dying Anakin, the passing padawan making a tired comment about just like the old days, and nests of gundarks. (And on that note, imagine Leia Skywalker and Shadows of Mindor, or the Jedi Academy trilogy with Jedi Knight Leia taking up her destiny, while an even older Obi-Wan tries to retire. Imagine an NJO where Grand Master Kenobi is getting too old to duel, but with mastery of the force and his usual wit smacks down some Vong without shifting a foot - putting Soresu into practice without a blade.)

    Ah, to dream. But things happened the way they had to. The PT and TCW have raised Obi-Wan up there with Luke and Anakin as one of my favorite SW characters, but getting to basically ascend and become part of the Force, to play the mentor, was his destiny.
    Last edited by Alixen, Jun 19, 2014
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  20. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I fully fault her for LOTF. When Denning says the editors loved his proposal, that's who it is. Read the round robin that originally came with TUF and you'll see what I mean -- she was down on the NJO in that.

    As for my analogy, I think a better analogy of LOTF would be (I've probably said this a bunch of times):

    Obi-Wan survives Star Wars and the OT and maintains a leadership role for the Jedi (Luke is just helping Obi-Wan grow into his next level of leadership, you see). After Return of the Jedi, Dark Empire happens and Luke turns to the dark side. And Obi-Wan sends Leia to kill Luke, and she does. The end.
  21. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Oh. Really? Wow, okay then.

    Yeah, that's exactly it. [face_laugh]
  22. Alixen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2003
    star 4
    Scary thing is, though, that still works better than LOTF.

    After the events of the Clone Wars, Empire, and having to kill pretty much every Sith he met, it wouldn't be out of character for an older Obi-Wan to take a more Windu-like stance. Especially not with Luke having the potential to turn into everything Obi-Wan stopped Vader from becoming the first time, with a young (if cloned) Emperor in the background. Obi-Wan would likely see dead younglings when looking at a fallen Luke. See the Empire returning, more terrible than before, and forever. However, the idea of killing Anakin's son would torture him, bringing memories of his brother burning on Mustafar. It couldn't be him. I can also see Leia, much like her father but without his borderline-obsessive attachments, being able to put aside her attachments to a sibling she had only had a relationship with for around a decade or so, and do what had to be done.

    The problem with LOTF was how messed up all the characters were. Jacen was Vader 2.0. Jaina was [Character_Not_Found], Luke had little to none of his compassion or traits that made him who he was, Mara reverted back to the Imperial Agent persona, and everyone was just generally unrecognizable. Add in the senseless plot and retcons, and it just becomes a horrible trainwreck, and not even one you can't look away from.
    Last edited by Alixen, Jun 19, 2014
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  23. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    The thing is, there were some good ideas, or at least ideas that a good story could be developed from. The idea that Jacen followed Revan's path - that to save the galaxy he had to embrace the Dark Side - was interesting; but in the end, we got an insane Sith accusing his cape of treason. The GFFA suffering from internal strife, leading to a civil war - also an interesting concept. Instead, we only got glimpses of it (usually when the Big Three and Family intersected with the war) and didn't get an actual end to the war - even in the series that followed.
    Plus, it followed the Dark Nest trilogy in grossly underplaying the fallout of the Vong War, even more ironic when the Legacy series showing the effect a hundred years later.
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  24. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I forgot to mention, Yoda was secretly a Sith too.
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Well, you know what they say: one good turn retcon deserves another.