Lit A Cynical Walk Through the NJO

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cynical_Ben, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I agree. Everyone has a dark side.

    But I think the risk isn't a literal one; it is the same risk we face in real life.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Jul 16, 2014
  2. GoingInside Jedi Master

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    Mar 31, 2013
    star 1
    Yes exactly. It's the internal dark side, which is how I always interpreted Vergere's words. It comes from within and it's a risk everyone takes. That is what corrupts you, not some Force "devil" that literally tempts and seduces. But worrying about what MIGHT happen if you let loose, while people are dying, that's the line I draw. Cutting oneself off from the Force, for example, because Jacen is afraid that he might fail... it does bother me. And yet, even he does what he has to do when the time comes. Luke and Jacen seem to be aware that it's an academic, semantic concern, because it never stops them from acting.
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  3. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    The Force amplifies what is already there.

    I don't think Luke or Jacen are opposed to violent resistance at all, they're opposed to winning at any cost.
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  4. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    I like the sound of that, too bad we'll never get to read it.

    In my experience, opting for that as a goal ends up creating the nastiest of discussions.

    As to Centrepoint - and I'll add this is not one of my ideas, others made the point (I'm reasonably certain DM was one of them - a far better argument against it is not of the morality of using it - and I'd say the difference in relative power has to factor into any comparison of the Rebs vs Empire / NR vs Vong - but the risks involved in doing so. There's two ways to look at Centrepoint's use or not:

    The Fantastic: Anakin says he can make a shot of a wall of star-killing energy at a target light years away with perfect accuracy, so of course Jacen should let him do it. Plus if the Vong suffered a catastrophic massive loss from one shot, that may be all that is needed to get them to abandon war - there was enough actual space in the galaxy right? Especially with the Vong's terra-forming ability? If you go by utilitarianism, you can argue using Centrepoint could have saved Vong lives too!

    The Realistic: Anakin says he can make the shot but what happens if he misses? On galactic scale being off by 0.0001% could see an entire planet immolated! Or, to bring in Mass Effect 2's Gunnery Chief:


    The same surely applies to the use of a starkiller, doesn't it?
  5. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
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    Yeah I thought about mentioning the risks of a miss, as well as that of a counterattack. Even though we know they don't, the Yuuzhan Vong could have had their own super weapons that they would use in retaliation.
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    If everyone has a dark side, and everyone generates the Force, then the Force should have a dark side as well.

    They could call it... I don't know... the "dark side of the Force", or something. Too bad no one ever thought of that one.
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  7. GoingInside Jedi Master

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    Mar 31, 2013
    star 1
    One, the speculation about a "miss" is going beyond the bounds of the material, but more pertinently, there were two outcomes in that situation: Either Anakin fires the weapon or Thrackan does. Which saves more lives?

    Two, if the Force is life, why would it have a component that is antithetical to life? It's as silly as the idea of a planet called Mortis where Force gods live.
  8. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Recant your heresy!!

    The answer to your question is unknowable.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Jul 16, 2014
  9. JediMatteus Force Ghost

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    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    If the 100 jedi would have fought on the front lines, their would only be one Jedi left, if that... Luke
  10. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Like that's going to stop people talking about it!

    [IMG]
  11. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
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    One of the central themes of Traitor is making decisions in the face of the unknowable.

    I don't think it is fair to reduce it to the binary choice of Anakin or Thrackan. Anakin didn't know Thrackan was going to fire it when he chose not to.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Jul 16, 2014
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  12. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Jul 19, 1999
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    Huh, far as I was concerned Thracken was a corpse as of the end of Corellian Trilogy.
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  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I believe it's generated by life. ( Then again, that information comes from a proven liar and someone who was known to associate with a proven liar. )

    Ask Sam Witwer ( or George Lucas ). Then again, "is antithetical to life" seems to be from the same stock as "is life".
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Jul 16, 2014
  14. GoingInside Jedi Master

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    Mar 31, 2013
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    No one could've guessed that. I'm not speaking from an in-universe perspective of how that should have influenced Anakin's judgement, I'm speaking for an out of universe perspective about which was the lesser of two evils. Condemning Anakin for using a superweapon (had he fired) is to look at the issue in a vaccuum. As it turns out, there were only two outcomes. Neither might have been "right". But one appears to be less wrong.
  15. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Hindsight is 20/20. I don't think it is fair to say what is less wrong when we don't know what would have happened if Anakin fired. I mean sure, him firing it seems like a great idea if we assume best case scenario.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Jul 16, 2014
  16. GoingInside Jedi Master

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    Mar 31, 2013
    star 1
    And that's all I was saying. The idea that "a good guy should never fire a superweapon" is naive. It is as complex as any other issue, in and out of universe. I wouldn't condone, in universe, our heroes going out of their way to find some giant laser to fire, but in this circumstance, a flat no doesn't cover the bases.

    We know what happened when Anakin didn't fire. We can only speculate on if he had. It might have been better. It could easily have been worse. It's implied he could have used the weapon surgically. What would that have done to him? We don't know. He didn't choose in the face of the unknowable. He deferred, and the instant he did so, he condemned thousands of Hapans to die (making Cynical Ben very happy).
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  17. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Jul 19, 1999
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    Well, yeah - Hapans suck.
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  18. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Actually - he doesn't bear the responsibility for Thracken's bad choice. That lies on Thracken's shoulders.
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  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Poor Anakin. He took the blame upon himself for too much **** that wasn't his fault.
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  20. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I'll just quote myself a few pages back here.

  21. GoingInside Jedi Master

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    Mar 31, 2013
    star 1
    Right. Just because it's internal rather than external doesn't excuse the Dark Side. Quite the opposite. But the harsh, uncompromising truth is that you can't lay the blame at some Force diety on Mortis or whatever. The Dark Side is very real and very dangerous, but it comes from inside.

    If I understand correctly.
    Last edited by GoingInside, Jul 16, 2014
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  22. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    I forgot to quote the other post:
  23. GoingInside Jedi Master

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    Very Buddhist, but here again is where we have different attitudes. It's not a Koan to me. I don't accept that there isn't an answer, and maybe the problem is that, like the belief in the NJO that the Yuuzhan Vong exist in a different part of the "spectrum" of the Force, that the idea of light and dark doesn't do complete justice to the totality of the issue.
  24. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    "You'll never have an answer, Jacen Solo. But you can be an answer."

    Edit: I'll just quote Traitor again to make a point maybe
    In all earnestness, I'm not sure why you would suggest it's a koan without some sort of an answer?
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Jul 16, 2014
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  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The dark side is as external as the Force is; given that the Force is galactic or universal in scope, it is certainly external to any individual.

    Which absolutely no one is doing.