Lit A Cynical Walk Through the NJO

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cynical_Ben, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. GoingInside Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2013
    star 1
    Which absolutely no one is doing.[/quote]

    I was being facetious.

    I had a long post written, but it sounded more angry than I intended. All I can say at this point is that I've tried to explain my viewpoint, ad nauseum, already. I would never claim my view is right, but it is my conclusion.
  2. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
  3. Riv_Shiel Jedi Master

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    Apr 12, 2014
    star 1
    Well now I officially wish we had an infinities story where Anakin does fire Centerpoint (accurately) and the guilt of taking so man lives in an instant slowly (or quickly) drives him to become a madman. Not that I necessarily think that IS what would happen (in fact I doubt it would), I just think it would be an interesting take.
  4. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I doubt it would have affected Anakin at all. That's the problem. He'd already made up his mind that a moral cause results in moral action, which is why he is in Kyp's camp, or at least on the fringe of it.

    It's why Dark Nest is so ironic -- it acts as though Kyp's camp took over the Jedi order with Luke's claim that

    "It was not really a dark side act -- to a modern Jedi, the dark side was more a matter of intent than deed -- but it felt that way to him."

    Firing Centerpoint falls perfectly in line with that outlook, because the Yuuzhan Vong invaded first so it's self defense!
  5. Riv_Shiel Jedi Master

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    Apr 12, 2014
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    As I said, I don't think it would have affected him either. However, I'm not sure his mind is AS made up as you do. If it was, he wouldn't have deferred to Jacen's opinion and he wouldn't be on the FRINGE of Kyp's camp. He also wouldn't have had the same competitiveness with Jacen to prove that his views were right. I think Anakin actually has a lot of insecurity and doubt at this point in his life - he just processes it differently than Jacen does.

    The further irony is that during the NJO Kyp himself reverses his stand on this. If anything, the Jedi shifted AWAY from this position during the Vong war.
    Last edited by Riv_Shiel, Jul 16, 2014
  6. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    Yes and Denning failed to listen. maybe the eu should have ended at TUF
  7. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    I say they are just not used in a productive way.
  8. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I said in the other thread I was going to re-read Dark Tide, but I only found Ruin and not Onslaught so I figured I'd skip Onslaught since that's basically Vector Prime repeated anyway and the cool stuff is in Ruin. Five chapters in, I've found some interesting scenes which I think are interesting in how they set the stage for the series itself as well as people's perception of the series concerning complaints about the series being too dark, or the New Republic being too dumb, or the Jedi being too timid. First, Shedao Shai's POV:

    This is pretty similar to Vergere in Traitor, and fundamentally it's a rejection of philosophical hedonism -- the association of pleasure with good and pain with evil.
    [IMG]

    Also interesting, just prior to the above quote:

    Poor editing side, the Yuuzhan Vong in general don't seem to share this view that rejecting pain is wrong, which seems to imply that Shai's absolute rejection of hedonism is peculiar to him, rather than the culture. However, this evolved to become a cultural trait.

    In the following chapter, Luke says nothing about non-participation in the war. He doesn't want the Jedi to lead attacks against the Yuuzhan Vong, only reconnaissance and defense of planets. But in both those cases, the Jedi are still fighting, as is literally seen in the book when Jacen, Ganner, and Corran lead a strike team to Garqi, and when all the Jedi fight to defend Ithor. It's also noteworthy that it's established in this scene that the Jedi number under one hundred.

    In chapter three, Anakin is wallowing in survivor's guilt and Han is wallowing in the bottle. Jaina is pleased to be part of Rogue Squadron, and Jacen is just there, but doesn't say anything offensively philosophical. Chapter four deals with Leia and Fey'lya, with Fey'lya stating that the New Republic will not sanction the Jedi participation in the war, because it's politically unfeasible, because opponents to the Jedi paint Dantooine to be a failure despite Jedi participation, Yuuzhan Vong absence in the Force mitigating Jedi abilities, and a general lack of success in the prior book, such as Luke failing to rescue any slaves from Belkadan -- despite Jacen attempting to do so -- as well as Ganner and Corran disrupting the ecosystem on Bimmiel. I get the impression that the politics in this book are similar to the criticisms of Traviss' work, insofar as that politicians can't lean on the Jedi because anti-Jedi sentiment exists. Certainly it's exasperating from the reader's perspective, but it's true to the universe.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Aug 18, 2014
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  9. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Can you expand on this?
  10. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    To the reader, it is obvious that the Jedi are heroes. But there has always been Anti-Jedi sentiment, before the Empire due to their separation from society and further enflamed by Palpatine, so it is plausible when politicians or people in general don't view the Jedi as paragons of virtue. Traviss dwelled on this extensively, and some would say excessively so. I think some people might take issue with the NJO similarly featuring people that choose not only to not rely on the Jedi during this existential threat, but to outright reject their help.

    There's certainly contributing factors that are part of the story, including the Jedi's mitigated abilities against the Yuuzhan Vong and Kyp's faction taking unilateral action with political blowback. And that's without even bring Fyor Rodan and his political clout into the picture.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Aug 19, 2014
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  11. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Thanks.
    Have to follow up: what is it the jedi want to do that "the Man" (as good word as any) don't want them to do and what is it "the Man" want them to do that the jedi don't want to do?
  12. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
  13. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Gut punch right there. Even though I haven't seen it in person yet!
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  14. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
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    The only important label is the New Jedi Order label. The NJO has been "Legends" since July 2005.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Aug 19, 2014
  15. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    True that.
  16. stung4ever Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 2
    Yeah, I stopped at Barnes & Noble last week, and picked up my first books with the Legends tag.[face_sigh]
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  17. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    =D=

    Which one? I got Crucible with the Legends tag just so I could laugh at it :p but I haven't seen any other books with Legends tags in stores yet. I know Kenobi and DOTJ: ITV are due out soon; was it one of those?
  18. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Crucible, Kenobi, Tales of the Bounty Hunters, Lost Tribe of the Sith and one or two others on my end.
    DOTJ:ITV is out. No Legends monkier on it.
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  19. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Oh yeah, I forgot. I've even seen it in stores, duh. :oops:
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  20. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Don't worry. I got confused once myself a week or so back. The spine threw me off. Felt like I hadn't seen it before but had to have bought it before. Waited until I got home and checked. Already bought it.
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  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    There are too many truths in that book no matter what label they slap on it.
  22. stung4ever Force Ghost

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    May 17, 2002
    star 2
    Crucible, Kenobi, and the Lost Tribe of the Sith collection I never got around to getting. All the novels I looked at there had the Legends tag, even Heir to the Empire.
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  23. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Well, Ganner was born to be a Legend.
  24. JechtShotMK9 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2013
    So, will there be any more Cynical walks through other parts of the EU in the near future?
  25. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Hopefully.