Lit A Cynical Walk Through the NJO

I don't even know what's going on in this thread anymore.

 

People were complaining about the "NR politicians are the worst thing in the Galaxy" motif in the NJO.

As they've been doing since 1999.

I pointed out that it's very possible to turn the overt POV on its head and say that the politicians were actually in the RIGHT, that Leia and Luke were standing on ceremony, that Sovv is the worst war criminal since Artoo, and that it has in fact been challenged in exactly that way within the stuff we used to call canon. I should know. I went there.

I also threw in a riff of commentary on the Kre'fey-is-Halsey motif, in my real accent, which is basically the jazz baseline for that whole extended deconstruction in WARFARE.

Zeta got the reference.

Hijinks should thus ensue.

-- The Imperial Ewok

 

Luke was not wrong. going off half cocked on a single handed war against the vong without proper logistics, and tactical strategy is stupid. Maybe Luke was too timid at first, But Kyp was off the rails.

 

The politicians being self-serving idiots was fine in the NJO. Having it happen with every series following it is horrible.

 

So in other words, at some point Kre'fey got a message at some point that read something like:

"To: Admiral Kre'fey

WHERE IS TASK FORCE THIRTY FOUR REPEAT WHERE IS TASK FORCE THIRTY FOUR RR THE WORLD WONDERS"?

(Bonus points to any history buffs that get the reference.)

 

Why do you think that?

Can you give a short summary to us who dont have Warfare?

 

First time it happened, it got old after that. New generation of politicians coming to power after Mon Mothma, Ackbar, Leia etc. retired. They didn't share the same ideals as the original founders did so the Republic died. It's like the first couple decades of history of the United States. The Founding Fathers created the United States, but they couldn't run it forever so a new generation (Founding Sons) had to take over and handle the problems that plagued the FF's and they succeeded. A democratic government needs every single part of it running smoothly to work. Yeah it sucks that the government that the Big 3 spent decades trying to create failed but it worked out in the end. The entire galaxy was united under its banner. Not just the Republic worlds and Hapes.

 

Self-interested politicians I can buy, politicians self-interested to the point of suicide and the destruction or conquest of their entire government and world I cannot.

A Vong victory did not require NR stupidity, especially given the size of the Vong invasion.

 

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Hah! Well played! ​

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What makes you think Kyp had no logistics or tactics, though?​

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The early NJO novels show the Dozen running scouting missions, getting a clear idea of YV numbers (i.e. a lot less than Coruscant were estimating), saving people in trouble, and locating major targets like Sernpidal.​

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Now yes, you could argue that Sernpidal was the wrong target to blow up (and to be honest, I maybe would), but it's a different form of misguided than sitting on Coruscant and failing to defend the Outer Rim.​

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Hah!​

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*imagines Jaina sneaking out one night and writing "Ralroost Against The Vong" on the flight deck*​

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That was what I already did. ​

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But what's the advantage in that? Compelling everyone into Coruscant's one-size idea of a proper political system is meaningless, and probably counterproductive....​

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I'm still not sure what Borsk is exactly supposed to have done wrong, though.... Yes, there were some idiots in the Senate, but where's the basis for the carping against the actual leadership?​

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-- The Imperial Ewok​

 

Ah, I've missed the McEwok! What leadership? Had there been some things might have gone differently.

Over in one of the other threads, Crucible I think, there's been some very interesting comments on Star by Star and Leia apparently comments there that the NR had been dead for years! We can all see the story dictates at work but in terms of the characters, is it that plausible that Leia would be so dismissive of something she spent over 2 decades building and supporting?

 

In that case, can you do it again in an expanded version because I don't follow.

 

You could argue that if the heroes had done less complaining about the actions or lack thereof of the leadership, and more actual doing stuff, things might have gone differently, too.

Does this help...?

-- The Imperial Ewok

 

In the NJO Invasion comics - there was a strong theme that Borsk was refusing to believe the Vong were a real threat, because of his distrust of Jedi, who were the first to encounter it.

 

Ah, but that's just it isn't it? NJO pinballs between two opposed ends: It sets up a threat beyond individual ability to combat yet still requires individuals combat it. Add in leaders who take a path that the heroes think is wrong, yet those leaders were legitimately elected, so they can't just be dismissed.

I'm kind of surprised no one did a post-NJO story of a human politician campaigning on an anti-alien platform because the last time an alien led the government it lost to the Vong, say a GFFA Farage as it were!

 

I felt that kyp was so arrogant in the njo, and he relied on the hair trigger aggression and the force instead of on caution and smarts. Because of that he lost a lot of people in the air and also struggled on the ground. I remember when Mara had to bail out Kyp and was it Miko?

 

Kyp got shafted like everyone else in NJO.

 

I disagree . kyp was in character. Matter of fact the njo was remarkably consistent with characterizations considering all the different authors . yes we had good characters die, but that added real drama for once

 

Isn't that kind of the thing? Kyp was in-character - but more than a decade has gone by - and he shouldn't be acting like the same old impetuous teen?

 

No, think of me as someone who have not read NJO but have an idea about it and have not really understood your previous answers. So lets try this again: why/how is it "very possible to turn the overt POV on its head and say that the politicians were actually in the RIGHT, that Leia and Luke were standing on ceremony, that Sovv is the worst war criminal since Artoo, and that it has in fact been challenged in exactly that way within the stuff we used to call canon"?

 

The reason I have great disdain for how NJO handles Kyp is because there's no subtlety in it: It's 'Kyp will go to the dark side and do anything to stop the Vong!' Problem with that is Kyp, with the sole exception of Luke, knows what being in the dark side is like and what it can encourage.

He knows he probably should be dead and isn't, solely due to Luke. He also knows the only reason he isn't is that he is supposed to work to pay off the debt he owes the galaxy, a debt he knows he will never meet in full.. Therefore it is logical to say Kyp will indeed go right up to walking the razor in order to protect the citizens of the NR, but over it? No.

 

Considering the political landscape and the condition of the New Republic at the beginning of the YV-invasion (alluded to in sources like the HoT, CTD and NJO-sourcebook) I don't see how Borks could have done any better once he realised the size of the threat (which should have been at the time of DarkTide).

From the time of the Rebel-Alliance to the beginning of the NJO we see a dilution and spread of power: from the quasi-dictatorial Mon Mothma over the small Inner Council during TTT to a larger Council at the time of the BFC to a point, where "President of the New Republic" is basically just another title for the chairman of the Senate. It is highly hypocritical of Leia and her clique to criticise Borsk for not doing better, since this development happened on HER watch in the name of "democracy".

And even if Borsk wouldn't have been bound by those constitutional limitations, even if he had been operating from a position of strenght or been granted emergency powers (can you imagine how well THAT would have gone, considering the last time had been Palpatine), the question would have been "what should he have fought with"? Aside from a small, central section of the Navy control and power of the fleet is splintered and delegated towards the level of systems and sectors. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to turn them back into a unified, coherent command-structure, especially with the way the Senate is made up these days?

Borsk has to gamble for time, time to get the war-machine running again with the building of ships and the recruitment and training of new crews, we see the first results of those policies in Destiny's Way, in the end they contribute to the successful conclusion of the war (the situation is similar to the clone-wars, there it took also two to three years to have the military-industrial complex running strong enough to finally crush any opposition). Unfortunately for Borsk he had to sacrifice more than he expected and with his death he became the scapegoat for the losses caused by the failures of the system and the previous administrations, while the rewards for his policies were collected by others (I'm looking at you Cal Omas).

 

Kyp was in-character only in regards to JAT. In Darksaber he was still energetic and eager, but not in the same way as JAT; certainly he wasn't as impetuous (he went undercover as an Imp officer with Dorsk 81, as I recall). And then if you take into account Simple Tricks, the short story where he's kind of trying to make amends for what he's done, NJO Kyp is pretty off-base. Still, it has been 10+ years, so it's possible to say that Kyp regained some of his "fire" without damaging the character. In fact, early Kyp is one of my very few complaints about NJO–but later Kyp (Dark Journey, Enemy Lines, and Destiny's Way especially) made up for it.

 

Warning! In-coming hate rant!

I've recently chewed my way through the first two-and-a-half novels, and honestly it's even more horrendous than I thought based upon the wookiepedia page of the Yuuzan Dorks.

1: The Dorks are laughable in every way imagineable. I can easily imagine the meeting where they were conceived "Hmm well since the Jedi were exagerated into superheroes, we should give them some new supervillains. But Lucas said they can't be Dark Side users, so let's come-up with something new!"I know! Remember those ridiculous lizards who could negate the Force from Zahn's ridiculously overrated books? Let's turn them into humanoids!" "Yeah yeah cool!" "'Tho if they completely negated the Force it would be a bit overkill." "Let's say they exist outside this all-connecting-Life-energy-field, so that they're untouchable by it!" "AWESOME! And let's give them genetically-engineered living-weapons that can block a lightsaber!" "Yeah, yeah, and you know what make them hate technology!" "And give them a sado-maso fetish!"
Argh! FAN! FIC! TRASH!
2: Then there are those gravity-well creatures they use....that is so beyond DUMB it's hard to put into words. Okay I have no problem with superpowers that enable a character to controll gravity in other settings like Marvel or DC verse, because those verses are all about silly ridiculous superpowers. But to introuce them into a setting with it's own rules, and explicitly state, that they're not using the Force to create the gravitic anomalies is just beyond ****ing stupid! At least explain HTF they do it you *****s!
3: And of course what everyoneelse has mentioned: the suicidally selfish and incompetent NR leadership. No comment.
4: Han is a drunk mourner. Okay first off, at the end of Vector Prime he seemed to have gotten through the "It's my/Anakin's fault that Chewie died!" period. Second, this is such a gigantic clishé played totally, 100% straight, and written in such an over-the-top hammy and narmy way, that I had a laughing fit when I read it (not a good sign considering it's supposed to be taken seriously), and I can't believe anyone was stupid enough to actually think it would work! OK, it could work, if it was a character who had no family and purpose left. But HAN. HAD. BOTH!!!!!!!!! And even if he didn't it would still be out-of-character for him. An example that actually works is Ventress in "Bounty". She literally had her last hope for a home taken from her, so it's understandable she'd want to drown her sorrows, not to mention it's well in-character for her. Also despite the drinking, she's not reduced to a sobbing mop.
5: Mary Sue's illness. Okay, so that decease supposed to destroy the victim on a molecular-level, and everyoneelse succumbed to it in days. Yet Mara was barely showing any signs of being ill weeks after she contracted it! Also, how did she counteract it???? HOW???? It's ******* YUUZAN DORK BIOTECH, that's unaffected by the FORCE. So then how did she use the FORCE TO COUNTERACT IT???? HOOOOOOWWWWWW?????? How did she counteract something that tore her body apart at a molecular level? Indirectly, by using the Force to immediately to cure the damage it has done????? So she used the Force to wizard the millions of destroyed chemical bonds back together, exactly as they were? Sorry, it's ridiculous!
Not to mention that based upon what I read about it, the flimsiest cures were enough to furher halt the process of the illness, and ultimately it's never explained how she recovered. So it served no point, besides adding some drama, because we really needed more of that!
6: The dynamics between the Solo-kids. Yet another overused clishé. Two representing the two ends of the spectrum and the third one somewhere in the middle. OK, this once again could work, if they give it a spin (Obi-Wan-Anakin-Ahsoka). But here it's played so straight it's PAINFULL!
7: That pathetic, insulting attempt to justify Palpatine's creation of the Empire as a way to prepare for the Vongs. The only thing saving that scene is that the notion is considered ridiculous even in-universe, by the guy who had a mancrush on the embodment of ridiculousness known as Thrawn.
8: The tone. This series is way too dark to enjoy, and way too stupid to take seriously. It's a confused mess. Examples are Mary Sue's predicament above. Or even more the death of Chewbacca. It's supposed to be tragic. It's supposed to signify that these guys really mean business. So naturally they kill him off in the most ridiculous, totally overblown way imagineable.

And I could go on and on and on. I know I'm still at the beggining of it, but I'm not interested in the rest at all. Glad this garbage no longer matters.

 

I'd like to point out, that I consider the NJO the last great hurray of the EU.

And what is wrong with lifeforms capable of blocking lightsabres? They are part of SW-lore since at least JAT.

 

Whoaaaaaa.

The series gets way better, you know. If you don't like the Vong already, there's not much that can be done for you–but the best books in the series (in fact, some of the best SW books ever written) are ahead of you. Stop now if you want, but you'd be missing out. As for Mara's illness–well, just about nobody liked that plot point, so you're not alone, because it did make her seem like a Mary Sue at times. But luckily that was a plot point that didn't last too long in the series. Same for Han's mourning; he's over that about two books after where you are now. But really, it gets much better–though as much as you already hate it, I doubt you'd see it that way. Just know, again, that you're missing out on some amazing books.