A Discussion on "Progress"

I was watching Star Trek VI "The Undiscovered Country" and I noticed an interesting statement made by the Federation President. During a speech he said, "Let us redefine "progress" to say that just because we CAN do a thing it does not necessarily follow that we MUST do that thing."

Lately I have noticed a lot of threads that lead to conversations about "progress" (usually used in support of liberal arguments against conservative ones) and this statement made in this movie got me to thinking about my stance on a variety of issues. It also got me thinking about whether or not some things which are "percieved" as being progression might actually be degression.

Here are some examples of this:
-Gay Marriage (is it "progress" to allow gay marriage or is it a "degression" in society?).
-Nuclear weapons proliferation.
-the complete separation of God from government.
-taking care of the evironment (potentially at the expense of industry and jobs).
-premarital sex.
-public nudity.
-censorship of the media (I'm thinking in terms of swear words, sexual content, and violence).
-cloning.
-certain elements of the war on Terror or perhaps just war in general (I'm mostly thinking about Gitmo, preemptive strikes against possible threats, and etc).
-politics (having a two party system, the electoral college, and etc).
-democracy vs communism (or perhaps capitalism vs socialism).
-whatever else you can think of that applies.



Here is my take on a few of these topics:
-Gay Marriage (is it "progress" to allow gay marriage or is it a "degression" in society?).

I personally hold the institution of marriage as sacred. I also believe that a nation is only as strong as the strength of traditional family values. When the family fails, the nation will fail. This is my personal belief based on personal observations and also on religious teachings. It is a degression in society to allow gay marriage. It is progress to allow equal rights as far as taxes and benefits are concerned, but degression to try and redefine marriage.

-Nuclear weapons proliferation.

I disagree with the proliferation of nuclearn weapons. This is an area that I disagree with President Bush. I will continue to do so unless I see some more compelling evidence. Thus far I have not seen anything to make me think otherwise.

I believe it is progress to develop nuclear technology for power plants and potentially space travel but degression when it is used for WMDs.

-the complete separation of God from government.

My answer here is pretty similar to my take on gay marriage. I believe that America was founded by inspirations from God. I don't believe that it is in our best interests to take God completely out of government and it is definately degression when you do so. I also don't believe in denying freedom of worship. If you don't believe in the same church that I believe in, that's fine. Believe in what you want. America gives you that right. However I don't believe the founders ever intended on God being completely taken out of the equation when they gave us freedom of religion (or should I say "when God gave us freedome of religion in America".)

-taking care of the evironment (potentially at the expense of industry and jobs).

I'm actually pretty liberal here. I believe that we should take care of the environment. I also support the research of new technologies that will allow us to maintain a strong industry but preserve the environment that we all need and love. It is progressive to develop technologies that allow us to be more efficient and less destructive to our environment.

-premarital sex.

My answer here is the same as my statements on family and how important it is to keep the family strong.

I will stop responding on my beliefs for these topics for now. If this thread goes some where I will continue or if someone is curious about my stance on one of the others.

 

I don't know if this thread will get locked for being over-broad or not, but since I'm snowed into my apartment right now, I'll try it.

-Gay Marriage: Gay people want the same things in their family lives as straight people: an emotionally and financially secure place to live and bring up children. For that reason, I don't see gay marriage as undermining the family or society.

FWIW, marriage and family life is thought to settle "seditious" groups down and give them a stake in society. Even if homosexuals were inherantly seditious (which they aren't), why would their situation be any different?

-Nuclear weapons proliferation: Unnecessary, and I don't see the Bush administration pushing for this. (Certainly not when compared to the Reagan administration.) We can already destroy the earth several times over, and outrageous nuclear arms proliferation already did its job of letting us spend the U.S.S.R. into the ground. They got sick of pouring about 40% of their GNP into the arms race while we committed around 5% for the same result, and they decided that their economic situation needed to change. Glasnost > Demilitarization > The end.

-the complete separation of God from government.

I see much of this as an unnecessary overreaction on the part of many people, but I agree that the government needs to avoid the appearance that it is promoting a particular religion. Go ahead and give parents vouchers they can use at religious schools, so long as you don't place limits on what kind of religious schools they can send their kids to. Placing the full text of a Protestant Christian religious scripture--and no other type of scripture--in front of a courthouse is a bit much, however.

-taking care of the evironment (potentially at the expense of industry and jobs).

The idea that we can continue to do anything we like to the environment without incurring negative, short-term consequences is incorrect. The rates of asthma among city children exposed to a lot of pollution have skyrocketed, noise pollution has made our hearing worse than that of our parents and grandparents, global warming is changing the ecology of the planet entirely, and mudslides and flooding occur in areas that have been clear-cut for timber harvesting. For that matter, damage to rainforest ecologies and the irresponsible capture and transport of exotic animals has resulted in new, deadly virus mutations, including AIDS.

Destroying the environment = having your house's septic system empty into the living room.

-premarital sex.

This is really hard to separate from the development of safe and effective birth control. I've never seen anything to indicate that our great-grandparents were more virtuous than we are with regard to premarital sex, but they were more worried about the stigma of out-of-wedlock pregnancy. Most of the time, couples who found themselves "in trouble" just had shotgun weddings. Other times, women were shipped off to distant "homes" where they would have their babies away from the curious eyes of neighbors, and then either give the children up for adoption or try to pass them off as other relatives, such as a late-life child of their parents.

Now, avoiding pregnancy and VD is comparatively easy, and "the morning after pill" and surgical abortions can end a preganancy after the fact. For these reasons, premarital sex doesn't seem to have the terrible consquences that it did a couple of generations ago, and people are more likely to shrug at it.

A complicating issue is that people wait longer to get married now. Some form of post-high-school eduation is necessary in order to make enough money to support one person, much less a family, so "marriageable age" is now somewhere in the early 20's instead of the mid-to-late teens. Back in the day, if a 16-year-old girl couldn't keep her hands off her 18-year-old boyfriend, they'd just get married. That's no longer realistic, and increased pre-marital sex is one result.

Is widespread casual sex good for s

 

After a very minor tweaking in the opening post, I certainly don't have a problem with the topic.

I see the focus on this statement: "Let us redefine "progress" to say that just because we CAN do a thing it does not necessarily follow that we MUST do that thing."

The issue if something must be done is a personal matter, I think. I suppose that's an obvious statement, but one which represents the heart of the matter.

I'd be interested in seeing how the topic proceeds.

 

Here's my take:
Gay Marriage
I don't really care what the definition of "marriage" is. As far as I'm concerned it's a religious institution so let the religious people sort it out. But then again, there's gay Christians that see nothing wrong with it, so there's Christians on both sides. Thus I feel that since some feel that their marriage is equal in the "eyes of God", then they're being denied equal treatment. But if they're happy with another name with equal rights, then I'm all for that too. But as thing are right now, I think that no progress has been made. Only when we have given equal rights will that progress be achieved.

However, in your response to your "the country is only as strong as its family", then is our country in a hopeless state of disrepair right now? More than 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce. I don't have any statistics on the failure rate of homosexual marriages, but I don't see them being any less secure.

Nuclear weapons proliferation
The US has enough nuclear weapons to destory human life already. I'm not sure why we need more. Ego contest? Surely the US is not that immature. And immaturity is not progress. If anything it's regression.

the complete separation of God from government
Again, I don't really care on this issue as long as everything's kept even. If the Chrisitans want their 10 commandments, then we'd better let the atheists have a sign saying "There is no God" too, and Bhuddists with pictures of Bhudda up too, and every other religion that wants a say to have their slogans plastered in government buildings. But I don't want my tax dollars going towards propaganda for other religions just as I'm sure people of other religions don't either. Thus, I think the simplest solution would be to just leave it out all together. Thus, I would consider the ban of religion a small step in the direction of progress in terms of equality.

taking care of the evironment (potentially at the expense of industry and jobs)
I'm very much for protecting the environment. Science has already started to demonstrate that alternative fuel sources are a reality. The only reason I can see that we haven't converted to them already is that the oil tycoons that run the country don't want to give up their monopoly. Again, this is not progress, this is greed.

premarital sex
I think I'm one of the crazy people that believes that you shouldn't marry without having sex. The divorce rate is so high I think having people that really knew what they were doing in bed couldn't hurt it. But that's not to say that I believe in running out and having sex with just anyone. Sex is something that I feel should only be had with those people you feel that you want to marry. So I feel that loosening up would be progress, but giving the all clear for sex whenever wherever, would be a detrement.

public nudity
Can't really comment either way.

censorship of the media
I think that censorship of any kind (be it press, books, movies, etc...) is a severe incroachment on progress. It takes the responsibility from parents who should be monitoring their kids and places it on some obscure figure. This may be part of the reason that families keep failing: the lack of connection and responsibility to the family. Yet on the other hand, the media is frequently manipulated by political agendas. If the press can no longer be trusted to be an objective source, then I see no reason to allow it. A puppet mouth that people trust is not a form of progress.

cloning
I've not yet seen any good reason that this would be anything but progress. Having 100% compatable organs for transplant sure would be nice.

certain elements of the war on Terror or perhaps just war in general
While I feel pre-emptive strikes are necessary, the government should be damn sure that they're right about their reasons for having one. Not doing so is rashness, not progress.

politics
I think the two party system is an outdated system that should be replace

 

-Gay Marriage (is it "progress" to allow gay marriage or is it a "degression" in society?).

Progress.

When the family fails, the nation will fail.

I missed something. Allowing gay marriage will affect "traditional" families...how?

It is progress to allow equal rights as far as taxes and benefits are concerned, but degression to try and redefine marriage.

I would love to hear you say that to an interracial couple. Or is it OK to "redefine marriage" as long as the consenting adults involved are not mentioned in the Book of Leviticus?

-Nuclear weapons proliferation.

Degression.

-the complete separation of God from government.

Progress.

Believe in what you want. America gives you that right.

No. America recognizes that pre-existing right. Privileges are "given." Rights are inherent and inalienable.

-taking care of the evironment

Progress, of course.

-premarital sex.

Varies, depending on the couple (or group) involved.

-public nudity.

With our obesity rate?

-censorship of the media (I'm thinking in terms of swear words, sexual content, and violence).

Degression. As you said, just because we CAN do something doesn't mean we MUST do something.

-cloning.

Progress.

-politics (having a two party system, the electoral college, and etc).

Depends. The two-party system disgusts me, and I am appalled that the only thing Republicans and Democrats can work together on is keeping other political parties out of the picture.

 

I am appalled that the only thing Republicans and Democrats can work together on is keeping other political parties out of the picture.

I think the reason a third party can't get any sort of support is because people are afraid to throw away their votes.

Oh wait... that's because there's so much fear-mongering by the parties. So you're right.

 

"-censorship of the media (I'm thinking in terms of swear words, sexual content, and violence).

Degression. As you said, just because we CAN do something doesn't mean we MUST do something."


I disagree with this. Progress will be made when people do not view sex and words with such a stigma, it is a warped way of thinking in my opinion.

 

Progress will be made when people do not view sex and words with such a stigma, it is a warped way of thinking in my opinion.

Exactly...but it's the "traditional" way of thinking.

 

not in all societies

 

1- Progress, it being wrong originated with the Christian religion, and now even most Christians don't believe in it. What's wrong with people in love being allowed to have teir own family? Let's butt out of other people's private lives.

2- Not progress, enough weapons already!

3- Progress, government shouldn't show a preferecne for a religion. I don't mean have relgion banned from everything public but the opposite, all religions everywhere. Everyone able to express their beliefs.

4- Progress, marriage is mostly religious, and the government having a say in it is it having some control over religion, which I'm against

5- Progress, freedom of dress.

6- Not progress, parents should decide if something is appropiate or not, not the government. Keep the government out of our private lives!

7- It depends, no complete cloning, just cloning of parts people might need, like organs.

8- Are you asking if war against terror is progress or not? If that's it, then of couse it's progress!

9- Not Progress, politics is so bad now, politicians have to be rich to campagn and get elected. So much wrong with the Legislative branch. It was amde because the entire country couldn't meet to agree on laws. They should get rid of Congress and just let any citizen who wants to vote on the Internet. And make it recquired to at least have a semester of Law each year in school so we're educated to make our decisions.

10- Democracy and Communism both have good points, but democracy is better, but I believe there should be a mix. Just that all education (public or private), medical and health help, food and clean water, and shelter is free and available to all, the government to provide the basics IF you have a job and are then contributing to society. Anything extra should depend on the money you get if you have a job.

11- Almost forgot about the environment, of course it's progress. They are living things too and should all be treated well, and we also depend on the environment, we're part of it, not separate in our own universe.

12- There is alose the issure of the governemnt now wanting to control what we eat to avoid obesity. Since when are our private lives a concern of the governmnent? I would hate it if I had to pass some exam to show i'm healthy. I mean I am healthy and I'm not obese, but it just doesn't seem right at all. SHould be totally up to the person. My History teacher predicted that the government would one day, maybe when my children are in high school, some foods will be illegal for not being healthy. And a few months later we saw on the News program my school gets that some governor wants to make how healthy/fat we are put on report cards, and if you're fat you won't graduate! Some people are just born with big bones, sometimes really muscualar people are overweight becaue of muscles not fat! Do you think it wouold really help depressed kids who are already told by their peers and magazines that fat is bad, and then see the governemnt saying on your report card that you're fat and need to take a diet to graduate?!

 

First I will respond to some things that have been said already and then I will give my opinions on the remainder of the list that I gave in my original post.

In reaction to the comments made about premarital sex, I can only say that I consider it progress for premarital sex to be lessened. It is more civilized and thus more progressive. Having premarital sex can cause children to be born without a proper family structure and thus more likely to have problems (disciplinary, psychological, and etc) growing up.

Sexual relations outside of marriage can also cause problems in self esteem. Where is the structured life in someone that is having sex with multiple partners? I don't see any. Premarital sex only leads to broken hearts, homes, and other problems. I think it can also lead to a negative stigma given to women. Pornography is hardly a complimentary means for a woman to express herself. It only makes her into an object and I think the same can be said of someone who freely has premarital sex "just for the thrill of it".

I truly believe that the strengthening of the family unit in society will make a lot of problems in society become lessened if not altogether wiped out. That is what I call progress.

More than 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce. and

Why do you think marriages are failing at an increasing rate each year? It's because of the degression of moral values as a result of a more liberal stance where premarital sex and censorship are concerned. So yeah, we have a degression in society because of these things. The acceptance of Gay marriage, IMO, is only another nail in the coffin of marriage and thus society in general.

The divorce rate is so high I think having people that really knew what they were doing in bed couldn't hurt it.

As I've stated already, I think the divorce rate is increasing BECAUSE of immoral acts like premarital sex.

But I don't want my tax dollars going towards propaganda for other religions just as I'm sure people of other religions don't either.

What specific religion is "under God" promoting?




Now for my take on the remained of the list found in the original post:

-Public Nudity was only brought up in my post simply because some "progressives" push for the idea that the human body should not be something to be "ashamed" of and therefore we shouldn't be ashamed to go nude in front of other people. I personally see this as a degressive attitude if for no other reason than it is throwing away any and all moral values. One thing that separates humans from the animals is our civility. Where is public nudity contributing to our being civil? IMO it is a degression to for society to accept public nudity as being "ok".

-censorship of the media (I'm thinking in terms of swear words, sexual content, and violence).

I think I've said it well enough already in this post but put simply I believe that the family unit is the foundation for a strong and civilized society. When families break down you see things like decreased values which can lead to increased criminal activity.

Censorship of innapropriate things can only increase the family unit's strength. Not having to see sex and/or violence on TV is only a sign of progress in society. Sex should be something private in a home and violence should be reduced altogether. What good can violence bring when it is shown so blatantly in the media? Just because you CAN swear, have premarital sex, or be violent, does that mean you should?

-cloning.

This is a very tough subject for me. I see many negative and positive things associated with it. Morally I feel it is wrong to "play God" but I also see the medical benefits. I really just haven't been able to give my stamp of approval one way or the other. I'm not sure if it's progress or degression.


-certain elements of the war on Terror or perhaps just war in general (I'm mostly thinking about Gitmo, preemptive strikes against possible threats, and etc).

Typically I would say that war

 

Interesting topic, although I don't much see what the quote has to do with it. That is, in that progress is something of a relative term, it always carries with it a statement cultural values, just as the discussion of traditional v non-traditional modes of thought are. That is, I've never seen progress literally/seriously defined as the way the quote says its currently defined, except in other, similar quotes, rebutting that original definition.

Anyway.

Gay Marriage- Not in favor. I don't think it's appropriate/right. However, that being said, people will do what they will. I'm not opposed to giving benefits/teax breaks or whatever.

Nuclear Proliferation- Opposed in general, but I don't think that the game should be played thus that only a few countries should get it, then declare how horrible it was and ban anyone else from developing comparable armaments, since that seems just a thinly veiled attempt at ensuring yourself a superior military force, which would be counter-productive.

Church/State Separation- I don't think America was at all divinely inspired. I think that overly close cooperation between church and state has often proved harmful to maintain the church's integrity, so I would prefer if they stayed separate. However, is this really an issue? There's very few extant religions where building big statues and idols are important. Christianity, to my knowledge, isn't one of them. I don't see how this issue is really that important, except that it speaks to the larger issue of the societal ethics moving away from what certain groups would want. While that is a legitimate issue, these issues of statue building and recitiation aren't really a part of it. I've never seen any of those things inspire true religious devotion, nor, as I said above, have I seen many religions require those things. Work on changing societal values should come the same way it always has for religion: proseltyzation on an a person-by-person basis.

environment- Take care of it. Especially things like mercury being in fish, and polluting drinking water, and things. However, there are some unreasonable things (can't think of any off-hand, though).

pre-marital sex- Opposed. It's dangerous on both physical and mental levels.

Pre-emptive strikes and War on Terror-A terrible idea that I strongly disagree with. It seemed to me that this was more of a "police work" and intel-gathering foul up that simply needed to be improved, with a small group that needed to be dismantled. Instead, its' been overblown into an excuse for unbridled aggression against those we simply disagree with, and created an atmosphere of global polarization.

 

Why do you think marriages are failing at an increasing rate each year? It's because of the degression of moral values as a result of a more liberal stance where premarital sex and censorship are concerned. So yeah, we have a degression in society because of these things. The acceptance of Gay marriage, IMO, is only another nail in the coffin of marriage and thus society in general.

Moral Values! Moral Values! Moral Values!!!

You know where marriages in the country are the strongest? Do you know what state that is?

 

although I don't much see what the quote has to do with it.

I look at the quote as saying just because we can do something (ie have less censorship, encourage premarital sex, allow gay marriage, and etc etc etc), it doesn't mean that we must or should do that thing. Progress isn't necessary measured by our ability to do something and having done it. Sometimes it's "progress" to keep things the way they are or "should" be because that allows us to advance ourselves in other areas or ways.

 

They should get rid of Congress and just let any citizen who wants to vote on the Internet.

You can't be serious! We should be working to lessen voter fraud, not promote it.

Just that all education (public or private), medical and health help, food and clean water, and shelter is free and available to all...

Define "free." Perhaps you mean, "forcibly paid for by American taxpayers?"

Premarital sex only leads to broken hearts, homes, and other problems.

Really? So if a couple has pre-marital sex, there's no way they can have a happy marriage? I know dozens of couples who can disprove that absurd claim.

Why do you think marriages are failing at an increasing rate each year? It's because of the degression of moral values as a result of a more liberal stance where premarital sex and censorship are concerned.

Right...couples all over the country are falling apart because of the popularity of "The Sopranos" and "Will & Grace."

Not having to see sex and/or violence on TV is only a sign of progress in society.

Believe it or not, you don't have to see sex or violence on TV! And your kids don't, either! Check your remote for buttons labeled "POWER," "CHANNEL UP," and "CHANNEL DOWN" (although I hear the Japanese are working on a new TIVO that actually forces you to watch X-rated programming).

What good can violence bring when it is shown so blatantly in the media?

Actually, make-believe violence actually helps children develop...as long as they know it's make-believe (teaching them that would be the parents' job).

Just because you CAN swear, have premarital sex, or be violent, does that mean you should?

Of course not. But just because you choose not to swear, have premarital sex, or be violent, does that mean you have the right to force those "traditional values" on everyone else?

I don't have a very informed opinion on the electoral college and whether it should be remove or not.

I recommend http://www.fairvote.com/e_college/. I don't agree with everything they have to say, but they have some useful information.

...just because we can do something (ie have less censorship, encourage premarital sex, allow gay marriage, and etc etc etc), it doesn't mean that we must or should do that thing.

OK, but would you agree with the inverse? Remember, one man's "progress" is another man's unconstitutional abomination.

 

I'm not going to go through all of the issues raised because I view this question in another manor. All of the things listed are progress, the question IMO is whether progress is a universally good thing. I certainly do not think it is.

 

I'm going to ask the question, again and wait for a response from Vezner.

Moral Values! Moral Values! Moral Values!!!

You know where marriages in the country are the strongest? Do you know what state that is?

 

It also got me thinking about whether or not some things which are "percieved" as being progression might actually be degression.

Progress, as defined by me.
1) Positive accomplishments in the efforts towards a certain goal or ideal.
2) Change from the status quo driven by time.

Debates about progress are founded on perceptions of a goal's value.

 

What specific religion is "under God" promoting?

All religions with only one God. Especially the christian religions which call their deity "God" with a capital G. It disassociates itself from all non-theistic people, and any polytheistic.

 

-Gay Marriage (is it "progress" to allow gay marriage or is it a "degression" in society?).

Quite honestly, I do not see the problem with letting a man marry a man or letting a woman marry a woman. It may seem backwards to me or other people in society, but that should not allow me to infringe on someone else's other freedoms.

The government of the U.S., among other things, was meant to protect the natural rights of man, be it from a majority or a minority. When a man marries a man, he is not infringing on my rights in away, nor is he infringing upon anyone else's rights in any way; so I must wonder why a government-regulated institution may exclude a number of minorities on the basis of tradition.

I think it is "progress" when people's rights and liberties are expanded, so allowing gay marriage (as long as it's regulated by the government) is progress.

-Nuclear weapons proliferation.

It depends on who is proliferating nuclear weapons. If it's North Korea, it would be considered regression, whereas in countries such as the US or UK, it would be considered progression.

-the complete separation of God from government.

If, by "complete separation" you mean religious people not being allowed to run for office, then it is regression. Everyone has the freedom to believe in anything he or she wants.

Also, since this country was founded on many Judeo-Christian principles, and since this country has many Christian traditions, I think it is important for the government to respect our tradition and our religious past. The idea that having the words "Under God" on our coins infringes on people's freedom of religion is ridiculous. So far, I think that we're regressing.

-taking care of the evironment (potentially at the expense of industry and jobs).

[image=http://www.mercuryradioarts.com/images/product/clothing/clean-air-water-t-shirt.gif]

-premarital sex.

Personally, I'm waiting until I'm married to have sex because I think it has more meaning that way. Other people may believe what they want, but I think that the US is regressing as a society because of how rampant premarital sex is.

-public nudity.

I do not see what could possibly be immoral about women showing their breasts, but then again, I'm a guy. Since they are not a physically sexual feature (strictly speaking), I think women should be free to walk around shirtless (since men are). However, genitalia should be covered in public places that are owned as common property.

-censorship of the media (I'm thinking in terms of swear words, sexual content, and violence).

Don't get me started on censorship. I think TV, radio, cable, and other stations should be allowed to do what they please with their property.

-certain elements of the war on Terror or perhaps just war in general (I'm mostly thinking about Gitmo, preemptive strikes against possible threats, and etc).

I'm all for defending ourselves, and if that means dethroning a ruthless dictator who murdered family members for fun and most likely has WMD's for the purpose of destroying my nation, then go-go gadget war machine.

 

I'm going to ask the question, again and wait for a response from Vezner.

Moral Values! Moral Values! Moral Values!!!

You know where marriages in the country are the strongest? Do you know what state that is?

Why should I answer your question when you are obviously going to tell me anyways?

Nevermind I will go ahead and do it for you since I know you are just trying to set me up.

The answer to your loaded question is Massachusetts but I've known this for a long time.

Well here's my response. Just because the state with the lowest divorce rate is predominantly liberal, that doesn't mean that liberalism is somehow championing marriage or that liberalism isn't a threat to marriage. Pam Belluck of The NEW YORK TIMES reported on this very topic, "Many experts find the explanation to be more multidimensional, tying high divorce rates to factors like younger age of marriage, less education and lower socioeconomic status.

"The higher the educational level, higher the occupational level, higher the income, the less likely you are to divorce," said William V. D'Antonio, a sociologist at the Catholic University of America, noting that Massachusetts has the highest rate of high school and college completion. "Kids who drop out of high school and get married very quickly suffer from the strains of not being emotionally mature and not having the income to help weather the difficulties of marriage."'

So education in that state vs the Bible belt states has a very influential factor in that statistic. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? It still doesn't change the fact that dimishing moral values because of a liberal stance on sex is destroying marriage and thus our great nation. Go look at the statistics of all of the other states in the nation before you try and stump me with just one state's statistics.

Does that answer your question/challenge?

BTW, Utah usually has strongest marriages in the nation because it usually is statistically able to claim the lowest divorce rate. Utah is predominantly Christian (or Mormon, to be specific).

Here is more information on the subject if you care to read it.

Now let's get back on topic, shall we?

 

...so allowing gay marriage (as long as it's regulated by the government) is progress.

Why do you believe it must be government-regulated in the first place?

...if that means dethroning a ruthless dictator who murdered family members for fun and most likely has WMD's for the purpose of destroying my nation, then go-go gadget war machine.

Maybe we'll get it right next time.

 

-Gay Marriage (is it "progress" to allow gay marriage or is it a "degression" in society?).

Gay Marriage is most certainly progress in my view. It's none of my frickin business what other consensual adults want to do with their privates, and it's not my place to try and deny them the same rights that I'm afforded. I was raised better than that.

-Nuclear weapons proliferation.

For the sake of national security and maybe the sake of the world, it's our responsible to make sure nuclear weapons don't wind up in the wrong hands. But how many people really view nuclear proliferation as progress?

-the complete separation of God from government.

The elimination of the PROMOTION of the christian god from the government is most certainly a good thing. You know, I don't want our government pushing an atheist agenda on anybody else, so I find it disgusting that so many christians think the christian agenda should be pushed onto others. Our government is supposed to be secular, people should be allowed to practice any religion they wish, and the government should have no place in it.

-taking care of the evironment (potentially at the expense of industry and jobs).

When we're dead, you and I, the environment is what will be left behind. So if people have to lose their jobs to save a species or whatever the case may be, I'm all for it. They can find other jobs. That may not sound very compassionate, but I think it's all about priorities. The world should be our first priority, for our kids and their kids and so on. Potentially damaging the earth forever is not worth a couple of jobs.

-premarital sex.

Who actually promotes premarital sex? I wish we had a more healthy sexual attitude that's for sure. But with that comes more maturity dealing with sexual issues which in turn I believe cut down not on the amount of premarital sex, because to me I don't care anyway, but it would cut down on unhealthy sexual attitudes which might lead to a high number of sexual partners.

-public nudity.

This is easily the most absurd thing you have a problem with, I mean I just have to shake my head. We were born naked and I don't see any problem with the naked body. It can be a beautiful thing, our immaturity towards the naked body I think has a lot to do with the unhealthy sexual attitudes we have today.

-censorship of the media (I'm thinking in terms of swear words, sexual content, and violence).

I think censorship is stupid.

-cloning.

I'm against cloning. I think the potential problems are far too numorous to name. I think we just might be overstepping our bounds on this one scientifically.

-certain elements of the war on Terror or perhaps just war in general (I'm mostly thinking about Gitmo, preemptive strikes against possible threats, and etc).

I think Gitmo is the most disgusting thing to come from the Bush administration. They fool the public into believing that only terrorists are held there, but hundreds have been released over the last 3 years. So how many more are being wrongly held there? We don't know, and that's why they need due process. If they're guilty, prove it in the court of law. That's the basic principle of our legal system, and the Bush administration tosses it aside, basically spitting on our fore fathers's graves.

But anyway, progress is relative, so I'm not sure where you want this conversation to go since we have a thread for each one of the topics mentioned.

 

-Nuclear weapons proliferation.

I disagree with the proliferation of nuclearn weapons. This is an area that I disagree with President Bush. I will continue to do so unless I see some more compelling evidence. Thus far I have not seen anything to make me think otherwise.

I believe it is progress to develop nuclear technology for power plants and potentially space travel but degression when it is used for WMDs.

THis is in response to pretty much all of the nuclear proliferation comments so far.

I don't think any of you understand the meaning of the word proliferation. When the US develops a new nuclear weapon, that is not proliferation, because the US already has nuclear weapons technology. Proliferation only happens when a country that does not have nuclear weapons technology either develops or otherwise acquires the technology.

As for those of you who say that we already have enough weapons to destroy the world several times, that is actually one of the biggest reasons to support the development of newer nuclear weapons. By treaty, we are limited in the number of weapons we are allowed to have at any one time, and any new dvelopment would be on strategic, low-yield weapons, rather than the massive doomsday-type weapons. Newer weapons would also be more efficient, creating less fallout and aftereffects should they be used.

Essentially, a nuclear weapon is just a way to make a bigger boom. You can accomplish the same effect with conventional weapons. You just need more of them.

Kimball Kinnison

 

You know, I don't want our government pushing an atheist agenda on anybody else, so I find it disgusting that so many christians think the christian agenda should be pushed onto others.

That's funny, isn't the effort by a few athiests to remove "under God" from the pledge an effort to push an athiest agenda on everybody else?

Who actually promotes premarital sex?

Hollywood and most every show on TV. So basically most of the media.

But really, this is besides the point of this thread. The real question that should be asked is should premarital sex be considered progress when compared to abstinence until marriage? IMO no. I think premarital sex sounds like degression to being more like animals instead of being civilized human beings.