Discussion in 'Star Wars Community' started by Alley_Skywalker, Jul 28, 2007.
oh my goodness! i found this on the third page! ... that's so sad.
It is, but it's not terribly surprising given that most people who posted in here have slowed down their posting frequency or stopped coming to TFN all together.
In an attempt to bump it up, what do you think the introduction of Ahsoka has meant for the overall perception of Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship? Personally, I think it's lead to something of a redefinition by many of just what is meant in RotS when Obi-Wan calls Anakin his 'brother.' If one goes by the films alone, it's fairly clearly an indication of their close friendship, but for many it's become "You were my [Jedi] brother" with Obi-Wan and Anakin being close, but not as close as Anakin or Ahsoka.
Of course, as an OT fan I tend to side more with the former given that Vader's obsession with his old master only makes sense if they were close before his fall.
I joined up just so I could answer this question.
To be completely honest, I don't really see Anakin and Ahsoka ever being as close as Anakin and Obi-Wan. And even if they were, it'd be a different kind of closeness. Now, I might be off-base with this since I'm a girl, but the kind of camaraderie that guys share seems to be different than how it may be between a guy and a girl. Especially if that girl is 10+ years younger than him. I could be totally wrong because TCW has just made a dent in its 100 episodes, but as it stands now, Anakin and Obi-Wan have been together more than Anakin and Ahsoka. I think Dooku Captured is a good way of showing their friendship and they seem to have this kind of relaxed friendship that I don't think Anakin would have with Ahsoka mainly because of the age difference and because he just doesn't know her all that well yet.
On top of all of that, Anakin and Obi-Wan have had over a decade to form their relationship, be it master/apprentice, brothers, best-friends, bitter rivals, what have you. Their relationship has layers and a lot of drama behind it. Anakin and Ahsoka have had mere months to form their bond and while I think they'll be close as far as master/apprentice is concerned and while I know that Anakin cares about her, I just don't see her ever elevating to the level of Padme and Obi-Wan for Anakin, IMHO. Even if Anakin is her Master for the three years of the Clone Wars, three years of friendship just can't trump a decade.
This post ended up longer than I intended. I just feel pretty strongly about Anakin and Obi-Wan as brothers, so I'm definitely happy to contribute to this thread. I like the Kenobi and Skywalker team and I kind feel that Ahsoka has kinda stuck a thorn in it, so I'm a little bitter.
Hey, welcome to the thread.
Anyway, I agree. Anakin and Obi-Wan are essentially equals once the war begins and have known each other for over a decade, I just think it's interesting that the fairly wide-spread assumption (which was supported by the old Clone Wars mini-series) that Obi-Wan and Anakin fought together or almost the entirety of the Clone Wars has been overturned by Lucas.
Of course, I do still think the entire thing could have just been simpler if they had stuck to the Kenobi/Skywalker team as indicated by RotS and A New Hope.
hello all! I have a couple of questions,and I want your insight.here are the questions:At what point did Vader started to detest Palpatine? I know treachery is the Sith's way,but there's got to be other reasons other than greed and power.Did Vader finally realizes that he was taken for a ride? Or did he remember his role in Mace Windu's death while Palpatine was frying Luke?
In my head, they do
I don't care what this cartoon says.
I'm turning into one of those fans I despise, and I'm going to say my personal SW canon ended in 2005.
Thanks for the welcome!
I know, right? I'm kinda like iLoveAnakin7 about the subject. I just kind of ignore Ahsoka and just tell myself that Anakin would've been perfectly happy to fight side-by-side with Obi-Wan for the duration of the Clone Wars and remind myself that Anakin didn't want a Padawan in the first place.
Although, I would've been interested in seeing Anakin's reaction to Obi-Wan getting a Padawan. I know in the film he just wonders outloud if bringing a Padawan into a war is a good idea, but I wonder would Anakin's attachment issues with his Master kind of make him feel like a jealous third-wheel in that situation. Guess we'll never know.
^I would have much rather seen Obi-Wan with a new padawan (maybe a temporary one due to a Master dying) over Anakin with one that's obviously never going to make it past the war or to Knighthood. I think it would have been a better storyline (aactually NO padawan would have been a better storyline, but I digress). Anakin would be jealous out his wazoo (or in my head he would be anyway, because it's only acceptable that *he's* Obi-Wan's padawan, and no one else can possess that role). Also, it would be interesting to see Obi-Wan with someone more run of the mill - actually raised in the Temple like he was. That way we could see the differences between how he interacts with a more tradtional Jedi, v. hothead, likes to bend the rules and cause Obi-Wan to reach for the bottle, Anakin. The padawan would also be close to Anakin's age (male or female, it doesn't matter), so they could butt heads. Even if said padawan made it to Knighthood it would sitll fit the story because Obi-Wan is a Jedi Master in RotS anyway.
There's so much wrong with it as it is IMO. I personally cannot see the Anakin from the movies tolerating a child for very long, especially not one just like him....oy vey. Anakin has a very short fuse, even when it comes to adults.
Anyway, I completely forgot mid-way through, where I was going with this post, but I think I got the main idea out anyway.
Sorry for complaining so much.
I think that by Return of the Jedi, Vader was no longer able to hide from the fact that he was effectively a slave to his master's will. It's worth pointing out that Vader essentially admits to Luke that he wishes he could turn back before he takes him in front of the Emperor:
LUKE:Search your feelings, father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate.
VADER: It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now.
LUKE: Then my father is truly dead.
Once they're in front of the Emperor Vader plays the part of loyal Sith apprentice as he believes that's the only option still open to him because he believes that no one can come back from the Dark Side and that once Palpatine starts to seduce someone, their fall is inevitable (and Palpatine also seems to believe both.) Of course, Luke shows both Sith that they're mistaken and lets Vader see that he can turn back. I'm not completely sure that Mace would come to mind for Anakin given that in RotS it was the Jedi standing over the 'helpless' Sith Lord but in RotJ it's the Sith Lord standing over the helpless Jedi.
I'm not a huge fan of The Clone Wars either, I have to admit. I like it, but it hasn't really grabbed me like I thought it would.
Like you and Dee, I would have rather seen Obi-Wan with another Padawan if anyone had to have one in part because of the possible dynamics Dee outlined. Of course, I think the easiest solutions would have been to make Ahsoka a Jedi Knight assigned to fight with Obi-Wan and Anakin or just have the Team. I'm still not entirely sure why they felt Ahsoka was necessary.
I haven't read Shadows of the Empire in a while, so I could be completely misremembering things (or mixing it up with fanfic! ), but I think Vader was starting to have doubts in there about his whole situation. But like Forrest said, I think that he thought he was stuck in that life until RotJ and his encounter with Luke.
Regarding Clone Wars, Ahsoka, and the boys - I agree with a lot of what you guys have said. It would make more sense if Ahsoka were Obi-Wan's Padawan (and I could definitely see Anakin being really jealous if that were the case), but having her along with them at all just seems completely unnecessary.
Aside from that, Clone Wars does have its good moments...I've enjoyed the episodes that concentrate on Anakin and Obi-Wan, and there was one focussed on PadmÃ©, Jar Jar, and Threepio that was surprisingly funny.
Hi everyone! Like time no see!
So what has been happening in Clone Wars? Since I don't really watch it maybe someone can tell me.
My take on Ahsoka is that the writers felt a young new padawan character would help draw some of their intended audience - children (a la Jar-Jar, and we know how THAT went over). After all, the series is on the Cartoon Network in cartoon format, with 90% of the commercials obviously geared at children. (toys, games, etc., very few for the supposed "adults" watching.) She's growing on me, but I wish there was a LOT more Obi/Ani dynamic. Obi-Wan's wisecracks are overdone and at times annoy me, too. They seem to be stuck in randomly with little sense as to why they are said, in a war situation to boot. Perhaps Obi-Wan always feels he needs to lighten the mood in these tense situations for others. IDK
As far as Vader, it may have already begun in TESB, in their first encounter, but if not then definitely as Vader watches Luke stand up to the Emperor in RotS. It's dawning on him that Luke is an example of what a Jedi is, and it's his son showing him that example yet! Reminds me of the example Obi-Wan gives Luke in his death. Sacrifice for the greater good.
It feels like to me that they're trying to show a different side to Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship. From what I've noticed, when Obi-Wan cracks a joke, it's usually about Anakin or to Anakin or at Anakin's expense. Like, their master/apprentice relationship has shifted into this form of sarcastic quips and playful ribbing. That's cool, but I wish they'd explain where that came from. That certainly wasn't the case in AotC because every time Obi-Wan made some sarcastic little joke, Anakin would look annoyed and keep quiet, like the scene on Geonosis in the arena.
"...then we decided to come and rescue you."
Heh, one of my favorite scenes, by the way. Anywho, I like that aspect of their friendship, but it kind of seemed to come out of nowhere because Anakin, in the films, didn't really toss that many quips back to Obi-Wan. Perhaps aside from the chase scene at the beginning of AotC when Anakin talks about finding the speeder he liked. Maybe since Anakin became a Jedi Knight and he finally got Padme, he's loosened up. That's pretty much what Wild Space inferred.
But then again, Anakin and Ahsoka have the same kind of friendship based on playful banter, so I dunno. Maybe Anakin just breeds sarcasm in people? However, Anakin seems to be more amused when Obi-Wan does it instead of Ahsoka.
I dunno. I think I just thoroughly confused myself.
It isn't that I don't like the banter, in fact, I love it. But in CW it just seems "forced" to pardon the pun, or at the wrong time (inappropriate). IDK...it's probably just me.
Jumping back ever so slightly to the issue of inserting Ahsoka into the Anakin/Obi-Wan duo... I don't think theres any way the relationship between Anakin and Ahsoka comes anywhere close to that of Anakin and Obi-Wan. Anakin spends at least 10 years as Obi-Wan's padawan, and a fair bit of the time from when he becomes a knight until RotS with him still, compared to something less than 3 years with Ahsoka (possibly significantly less, but the CW timeline is somewhat of a mess right now, to put it mildly).
Deb it's not just you.
Anakin and Obi-Wan are my favorite characters in the movies, but in TCW I'm not afraid to admit that they annoy the ish out of me (it must be the show, because I loved them in Wild Space, which takes place in the same time frame). Anakin is too nice, and Obi-Wan is too silly, for lack of a better word. The writers take the bantering too far. It's nice, but that's not all they do after Anakin is Knighted. It's still a charged and heated relationship. It seems generic and boring on the show. Anakin bitches, and Obi-Wan cracks a joke, all is well - huh? ----> I love the plain face
I wonder if I would feel this way if I wasn't already partial to the Republic comics, LOE, and the RotS novel, which are all places that their relationship is portrayed much, much, better IMO.
LoE is a great example because they have a pretty light-hearted, friendly banter type relationship in that novel too, but it's a lot more natural. Hopefully, TCW will get better as the seasons progress. I'd be interested in seeing Anakin and Obi-Wan have a falling out of some sort during the war and they end up having a Joni Mitchell moment. You know, you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone.
But as far as TCW is concerned, it seems that Anakin and Obi-Wan can't be separated for very long without one or the other getting worried about the other one. Talk about attachment issues.
Well they certainly do fall into [link=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeterosexualLifePartners]this[/link] category.
Anakin and Obi-wan seem to make a really good team, don't they. lol
Absolutely.so much so that it makes their major falling out so tragic.And I'm sure Palpatine/Sidious did it on purpose,just to get back at Obi for slicing Maul.
That's actually one of the other things I liked about Wild Space - it described Palpatine as disappointed that Obi-Wan survived, and how he was plotting, trying to get Obi-Wan killed... without Anakin, of course
EDIT: and I just realized it was the other thread in here that I was just talking about Wild Space Ignore the "other" above, then
I'm sure revenge for Maul's death was on Palpy's mind. He even requests Obi-Wan by name to guard Padme. He always had something up his Sithy sleeve.
I love that site. I spend way too much time on it. If you want to go further, Vader and Obi-Wan could fall into [link=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FoeYay]this[/link] category, but that's neither here nor there. I mean, after Vader "kills" Obi-Wan, he takes his lightsaber and keeps it in his quarters as a trophy. Even after his death, Vader's focus is still on Obi-Wan...well, until he figures out Luke is his son, but I digress.
That's the first time I ever saw that site. Interesting indeed. I may be hooked.
I see this place is not that active...
It appears the clone wars is done with season 1.
Good bye everyone.