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Full Series A Gender-Neutral Galaxy?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by Faithful Wookiee, Jul 30, 2014.

  1. Faithful Wookiee

    Faithful Wookiee Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2014
    I love Ahsoka, and admire the three-dimensional, progressive way so many other women were portrayed on TCW. Not simply as "man-like" in their physical prowess (I dislike the "strong women" concept, because it suggests women have to display an abundance of masculine qualities in order to be equal to men, instead of flourishing independently of what the men are doing), but -- more importantly -- as equals to men, in all the ways that matter: intellectually, emotionally, spiritually. Not giving a frak what men think of them. I sense a strong BSG influence here. I'm sure TCW passes the Bechdel test with flying colors.

    But then I spot the occasional scene -- usually set in Jabba's palace, or another similarly corrupt environment -- where we have scantily-clad dancing girls, sexy female servant droids, and even a prostitute in "A Sunny Day in the Void" -- all female.

    Is this a patriarchal galaxy, or not?
     
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  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Most societies in the GFFA are patriarchal, which is why a matriarchal society like that on Dathomir is so awesome is seen as unusual and gets a reaction.

    Leia was portrayed the way you described long before Ahsoka was so I'd say it's the GFFA in general, but yeah, we are in the TV forum.
     
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  3. Faithful Wookiee

    Faithful Wookiee Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2014
    Leia was a good start. In the broader context of TCW's gender-neutral approach, the fact that, in TESB, she needed a man to teach her how to be a more loving, empathetic person seems less gender-based, and more just like two characters interacting. One of the many ways TCW enhances the films.

    Dathomir is an amazing creation, but it's too bad that the only matriarchal society shown so far is depicted as being such an aberration, and so shrouded in mystery and magic. (Kind of reminds me how Steven Moffat fumbles in his portrayals of so-called "strong women" on Doctor Who: rather than full-blooded characters, they're enigmatic -- mysteries to be solved -- and potential threats to the Doctor.)

    I remain optimistic that Rebels will show the GFFA to be even less patriarchal than we assumed. It's good business sense for Disney to draw as many new female/progressively-minded fans as they can. More importantly, it makes the storytelling better.
     
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  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I don't agree with you at all about Leia. That's a problem with the way our own patriarchal society perceives women. It is assumed that a feisty sarcastic smartass like Leia is not a loving, empathetic person. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Leia did not "need" Han. In fact, that's what made their relationship so great.

    Star Wars really dropped the ball with Padme. She was initially portrayed as a badass who was not afraid to take on the Senate or the Separatists, or argue with Qui-Gon Jinn :p , but by ROTS she apparently needed Anakin for her very survival. Horrible, horrible depiction.

    I agree completely about Dathomir though. It is too bad that it is shown as an aberration.

    I don't like Ahsoka mainly because I think the show tried too hard with her, particularly in the last three seasons. I felt like the "we're creating this character to appeal to female fans" was too blatantly obvious. I cannot stand being told what character that I am "supposed to" like, especially if I am "supposed to" like her because I am a progressive-minded woman. Just give me an awesome character.

    Ventress is by far my favorite female character in the show, and may be my favorite overall. She's tough, she's a badass, she works independently and does not take ****, but she has enough vulnerability to keep her from being one-dimensional.

    As far as Doctor Who, the only female characters I like are River Song, Amy Pond and Martha Jones.

    On Rebels: if the show goes where I think it's going with Hera--the owner of the Ghost, a tough badass with a heart, and non-sexualized--I think it will do well.
     
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  5. Faithful Wookiee

    Faithful Wookiee Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2014
    Maybe it was the moviemakers who felt that Leia could not be both? I would like to hear more from you about why you think Leia did not "need" Han -- my take on the situation is that she did need him, because Han opened her up and made her more empathetic, which may, in turn, have allowed to sense that Luke was in mortal danger at the end of TESB. That was always my take on why her relationship with Han was so important -- it brought her closer to the truth of who she was.

    Interesting thoughts on Padme. My feeling is that the events of TCW ended up beating her down -- she suffered many personal and political losses on the show -- just as they did Obi-Wan, Yoda, and everyone else. In the context of TCW, by the time ROTS rolls around, everyone is at the end of their rope -- including Padme. Is she welcoming the baby as a means of healing her damaged relationship with Anakin, and also as a break from the strain of wartime politics? Is she suffering from some form of PTSD? Is she meant to seem a bit ... pathetic in ROTS? If so, then the events of TCW make this seem not only more understandable, but also, in a way, sadder (which, interestingly, is how Leia described her only memory of her mother in ROTJ).

    Ventress is a great character. I sense the final arc of her development was somewhat truncated, though -- she went out with a bit of a whimper.
     
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I've only got a few minutes right now so I'll try to come back to this later if you would like me to elaborate but as far as Leia:

    There was nothing un-empathetic about Leia in ANH. She was already loving and empathetic. Her sensing Luke was her tapping into her latent Force-sensitivity after meeting her twin brother, it was not a personality change.

    If Han had not come into her life, she still would have been the same fun, feisty and strong leader that she was throughout the OT.

    As far as Padme, "pathetic" is a good word. I expected her to be strong and self-confident enough to know that she needed to move the hell away from a toxic relationship, not die for it. I know what Lucas was going for but I didn't like it. Padme reverted to the traditional female portrayal on steroids.

    Ventress: I have accepted her ending in the show. I hated season 5 except for two episodes or so, and as such I would rather just create my own fate for Ventress. Happily Ever Awesome or something.
     
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  7. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 29, 2011
    Fixed! [face_idea]
     
  8. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    I don't think I'd want a SW galaxy so ideal and PC. Having the main heroes all be guys never bothered me either. I like it actually.
     
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  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I'm not one who looks at an all-guy cast and says "Hey, where are the girls?" I never gave any thought to the Imperials being all males until I joined this board and saw my first "Palpatine is sexist" posts. (I still don't think he was.)

    I also think Ahsoka was, as I said, a result of trying too hard to be inclusive.

    So I don't really disagree, but that said, I do appreciate Leia and Ventress as strong, well-rounded characters, and would even if they were men...but their being women adds a little more to my appreciation.
     
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  10. Trebor Sabreon

    Trebor Sabreon Former Manager star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 15, 2010
    One thing I've noticed is that Dave Filoni is awfully fond of trumpeting Ahsoka Tano as the answer to some supposed decades-long absence of great, strong female SW characters.

    I paraphrase, but Filoni's said on more than one occasion things like:

    "I look around at the fan gatherings, and I see how Ahsoka finally gave the girls someone to look up to. I'm proud to have contributed to that finally happening. That's important."

    And all I can think is, "Geez, Dave, for someone who is a self-proclaimed SW fan, as yourself, umm... what about Leia?"

    Does Tano have fans? Sure. Does she give fans (and not just female fans) someone to root for? Yep. Is it not common sense to have female characters who are just as well-rounded and featured as male characters? Of course.

    But don't kid yourself, David. Leia Organa was kicking *** decades before you ever came aboard at Lucasfilm (and before Tano was ever even a twinkle in George Lucas' eye).

    And you know what? Though not everyone is fond of how her character wound up in the end (and I don't blame them), Padme Naberrie was a leader to her people and pretty darned handy with a blaster, herself in TPM and AOTC. Let's not forget that. And she predates TCW.

    And there were, of course, terrific female character in the comics, novels, video games and the like for years before Tano, too.

    I don't blame the guy for being proud of his contributions to the franchise, but come on.

    I don't know. I guess I just needed to get that off my chest.
     
  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Thank. You.

    I actually find it insulting that, as a female fan, I needed Ahsoka Tano in order to have a character to look up to.

    Filoni is not much younger than me, he really should know better.
     
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  12. ifleninwasawizard

    ifleninwasawizard Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 2, 2014
    On the whole Star Wars could probably do better with gender equality, but I think its recent and distant history show it has been relatively progressive in comparison to what has come out around it.

    Like everything, Star Wars is always going to be a product of its time. As such it very often displays patriarchal tendencies. However, from George Lucas to Dave Filoni, the people behind SW have almost always been extremely well-meaning. As such we should criticize whatever sexism that has occurred, or occurs in SW, but we should do so in a constructive way. Asking whether SW is 'patriarchal or not' is probably overly simplistic and threatens to turn a topic that should be constructive into a destructive cesspit (I think we all know how quickly discussion of sexism and gender can go south). Because even if SW isn't perfect, I believe SW at its best just happens to be a great tool against the many irrational prejudices society harbors.
     
  13. Faithful Wookiee

    Faithful Wookiee Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2014
    Agreed.

    This thread deserves a less simplified, more nuanced approach than my initial post seemed to suggest.

    Next time, I will pay greater attention to my wording.

    Thank you!
     
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  14. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 29, 2011
    As a heterosexual white male, when I realized that basically all my favorite main characters from books, comics, television, and movies were also heterosexual white males, I thought that was a problem. I don't like leading casts with no diversity.
     
  15. CommanderDrenn

    CommanderDrenn Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 19, 2013
    Personally, I've never cared about that sort of thing in any of my favorite stories.
     
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  16. Faithful Wookiee

    Faithful Wookiee Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2014
    I always look at the female-to-male ratio.

    If the filmmakers or showrunners are interested in developing female characters, that's a good sign of a progressive sensibility, which makes it more likely I will feel a connection to the film/series in question. Just a personal quirk of mine.

    I find it interesting when the higher male-to-female ratio, which is the standard in our pop culture, is simply accepted as the status quo, and any well-intentioned attempts to rectify the imbalance are met with disdain.

    I think great feminist strides were made by Filoni, and I'm quite sure the series was formed by a progressive sensibility, but there are still occasional glimpses of old-school "slave Leia" thinking that convey a vaguely patriarchal undertone, which I would prefer to see less of in the future.

    So to answer my own question, I do not think the GFFA is intentionally patriarchal, but I do think even greater attention can be paid to certain details that can detract from the show's fundamental gender-neutrality.
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    What "well-intentioned attempts to rectify the imbalance" are you referring to?
     
  18. Faithful Wookiee

    Faithful Wookiee Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2014
    For me, any of the prominent female characters in TCW would apply. However, I can understand why some people might be turned off by a blatant attempt to have a character sold to them too aggressively.

    TCW wasn't on my radar when Ahsoka was first introduced, but if she was, indeed, marketed as "the female role model all you fangirls have been waiting for" (I'm paraphrasing here) at the time, then I fully understand why some people might be resistant to that: it comes across as condescending.

    As a gay person, I know I would be unimpressed if a gay character was introduced to me in this way ... particularly if there was too much effort to idealize that character, which would be just another form of objectification.

    Maybe the question of whether or not Ahsoka seems like an objectified, ideal version of a female character is worthy of further discussion?
     
  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    OK, so you do get why Ahsoka being marketed that way was met with disdain.

    On your last question...possibly. I personally don't think an ideal version of a female character is different than that of a male character.

    And I might have liked Ahsoka a little more if she had been presented differently.

    But...I think her character suffered when she lost her sarcastic feisty edge.
     
  20. CommanderDrenn

    CommanderDrenn Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 19, 2013
    Plus, I just didn't like her character at all... It's somewhat cliche to me.
     
  21. EECHUUTA

    EECHUUTA Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 19, 2007
    I don't think that should ever be awesome. Particularly when Dathomir treated it's men like disposable cattle and good for little else but stud work. If it's 'progressive' to have women commit the exact same evil, then it just shows that society has learned nothing and only sees such things as opportunities for revenge ("You did this to me, now I'll do the exact same thing to you.")

    What it should be are opportunities for equality, not to have some gender dominate over another. Otherwise the 'progressive' women are no better then the old time systems they claim to fight against.
     
  22. Faithful Wookiee

    Faithful Wookiee Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 29, 2014
    I don't think Filoni & co. are suggesting that a matriarchal society is progressive. All signs point towards the GFFA bring gender-neutral, on the whole. Which is why I pointed out the inconsistency of dancing girls as entertainment and sexy female-shaped droids as servants. I would like to see less of those things in the future.
     
  23. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 29, 2011
    If you're not a heterosexual white male, then I sincerely say good for you, but if you are, you're really just keeping yourself in convenient ignorance of the privileged status you hold by virtue of how all other demographics have had to (and sometimes still have to) scrape and claw for equal legal rights and the lasting impact that is having on society. (I am speaking mostly of American society here but I know many industrialized nations have evolved similarly.) All heroes being heterosexual white males establishes that as the norm and makes anything else an aberration, which should absolutely not be the case. We've already had enough decades worth of fiction where that was the case, decades in which, not coincidentally, people other than heterosexual white males had much fewer equal rights than they have today.
     
  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    They're usually explained with "chauvinism still exists in the GFFA" in the EU.

    The Star Wars Fact File goes into some detail on those droids - and mentions that the people at the top in the company manufacturing them, were chauvinists.
     
  25. Praenomen Cognomen

    Praenomen Cognomen Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 24, 2013

    (1) Remember that they're not so much embodying a single ideal, as much as they're trying to please a lot of different people. You know there's such a thing as "sex-positive" feminism, right? Regardless of what you believe is right or wrong, it's unwise to look at your entertainment as something only meant to please your own personal sensibilities.*

    (2) I think it makes perfect sense that Twi'leks represent a sexually-open culture. I don't see anything wrong with that. In the current canon, the Twi'lek slave trade has been excised, so it doesn't have that psychological darkness to it. Lord knows there are cultures who are regarded as more sexually-open (or just generally sexually strange... *ahem* Japanese used underwear vending machines, I'm looking at you). The dancers in the Hutt palace are shown not to be slaves, but showgirls. Can you tell me specifically what's wrong with that? Can you prove that they don't actually want to do it? Because there are showgirls in real life who love what they do. This is a theoretical question, mind you---I don't know where I stand---but there are people who feel this way, and it's a valid justification. I think it's fair to say that it could seem anti-women to say that semi-sexualized content is wrong, or to say that only women get to animate them. If it's right, it's right for everyone to acknowledge that, regardless of gender.

    (3) Beyond that, you also have to examine the "seedy underbelly" reality of it. Even if there's an internal justification for it, most of these scenes surround environments which are morally ambiguous, at best. The bottom line: It's not meant to depict a perfect world. A rich world needs good examples and bad examples. Not everything on screen is a moral endorsement; if that were true, the show would also advocate war and violence.

    *An elaboration on sex-positive feminism: One might argue that it's men doing the animating so it's not appropriate, but that's not all there is to it; you may disagree---I believe I do---but there are people who make a solid enough case for the rights of sex workers and their place in modern civilization, and about the fact that "slut-shaming" as it's called is a big part of what makes those industries dangerous... it sends women into "underground" situations, despite the fact that those industries have existed since the dawn of man, and could be much safer and easier to regulate if they weren't viewed so shamefully. Less repression means less danger to women in those industries, so it's easy to see how taking a more continental view of sexuality can actually be justified, depending on your personal beliefs.