A General Warning - Subtle baits and flames

In light of recent events, we've decided to issue a general warning to everyone about baiting and flaming and in particular subtle baiting and flaming. It seems to have been occuring quite frequently recently from many different people. This kind of attitude and behaviour is not expected, nor warranted from anyone in the fanfic community. Further baiting and flaming from anyone will not be tolerated and will result in administrative action.

Kithera

 

I have updated the forum headers with this thread link.

Kit said it all, but I would just like to reiterate some points. Please think about what you?re posting before you press the button ? consider how it?ll be interpreted by those who see it, etc. We don?t want to have to act, but you will suffer either a warning or a banning if you cross that ?no-go? threshold. I know that no one intentionally wants to get banned, and for that matter, we don?t want to ban you. It?s not enjoyable. Let?s keep everything healthy and afloat, and we?ll have no problems.

Thank you in advance .

Am

 

It's kind of sad that it has resort to people giving notices saying that we should be polite and respect one another. Just because you don't see the other person's face doesn't mean that there isn't another person behind that screen.

Just my two cents.

Keep up the good work, Mods...even if half the things you say shouldn't have to be said.

 

I agree - it shouldn't have to be said. However I've seen at least two occasions in the last few months where a poster has criticised a writer's work in another writer's thread. Not the sort of thing the average person would think of doing, but there are a few poeple who obviously don't follow the rules of politeness. That's particularly upsetting for the writer being criticised as they can't very well rush in and defend themselves in another person's thread. That would be very bad taste. So it's good to see that the Mods are aware of it. Keep up the good work Mods.

 

The truly sad part of this whole debacle is that it creates a climate of distrust and innuendo - and it only serves to damage the original poster.

AHEM: How NOT to win friends and influence people: The simple truth of the matter is that most of us on these boards are not 'in the loop' when it comes to minor feuds and confrontations - and that suits us just fine. We don't want to be a part of such pettiness. But what happens is that, in an effort to please cronies and fellow members of whatever groupie group one might belong to, a generalized statement is made - targeted at 'opponents' of the group in question - but phrased in such a vague manner that only those 'in the loop' know what it actually means - and everybody else is left to wonder - and assume that maybe it might be meant for them.

Example: If a statement is made - in any innocuous post - that 'some writers act as if they're too good to associate with common folks'. Now, I personally don't know anyone on these boards whom I would describe that way - but if that statement is made by ANYBODY - then EVERYBODY starts to wonder. Things like, "Oh, wow, when I made a joke about so-and-so being bloody-minded - did they take me seriously?" Or, "When I called myself a Pro-in-waiting, did they think I meant that I'm better than anybody else?" Those, by the way, are just examples. I don't recall anyone ever actually saying such things. But you do, I hope, see my point - which is that a vague, subtle flame - probably intended for one person, or one group of people, has suddenly taken on a strange life - and insulted just about everybody.

And, unfortunately, bad blood doesn't clean up easily; it tends to linger - and renew itself.

Wouldn't it be lovely if all of us decided that sharing a love of this particular genre - regardless of which particular part of it you might prefer - should provide a common ground on which we could all establish a mutual respect and a genuine attitude of good will?

Just a thought.

CYN

 

Hear, hear.

 

Thanks to Cynical, I now at least have an idea of what you understand as subtle baits and flames.

I was not sure what to make out of it.
I know what baits are or flames, but I don't know what belongs into the category subtle.

Can you give some more exsamples, so all can make sure they don't do so without intending it? There are a lot members here, that might be ignorant to the finer or more subtle meaning of phrases as English isn't their first language.

At least I feel a bit insecure about this thread. I can only hope that I haven't offened someone unknowingly. I don't think so but I can't be sure, cause sometimes I tend to write replies that are on the sarcastic or ironical side, intended to function as joke.

 

VadeyFan2002

Here, my friend is the rub... subtlety is a thin line, and can be a grey shadey area as well as 'intent'.

Case in point:

Someone post, 'I think that stories about purple underwear are just annoying' is a definate dig (all be it at a general class of writers) where someone might say Hey, they are talking about ME and feel the need to 'retaliate', even though the originator of the post had no one specific author in mind. They might have just seen 'one too many' post about purple underwear and blew off steam in a discussion thread (this happens a lot in the SENATE, especially where religion or personal ethics are called into question.)

In the case of subtle baits, it's always best if you feel that it might be specificly directed at you, to either PM the author or ask nicely in thread... often as not, it can be a simple case of misinterpretation or bad timing. For all I know, there is someone who has written a story about 'purple underwear' and is highly offended at my 'calling them out on the carpet.'

Remember, as writers especially, we are by nature a passionate breed. Best not to take things said too much to heart... and remeber that in the end, it's just a message board where things said can linger long after the intial post has been long forgotten.

 

I think the overriding issue is just to treat one another with respect, I don't think there's a particular template or wording that makes someone point to a post and say, "There. That's meant as a subtle flame." It's really just a matter of respecting each other's tastes, views, and opinions, even if those opinions don't necessarily coincide with one's own. We're all here to read and write, it's a shame there has to be so much drama on a forum meant for such a fun, rewarding activity .

 

You're right, J_A_S, especially when many of us come here to escape from a hectic and dramatic real life, and would prefer not to find any drama here.

Remember, as writers especially, we are by nature a passionate breed. Best not to take things said too much to heart... and remeber that in the end, it's just a message board where things said can linger long after the intial post has been long forgotten.

Yes, absolutely. And because we are a passionate breed, we also tend to be overly sensitive (I know I am, and have had to, plenty of times, take a deep breath, two steps back, and remember that it's not all about me) and take everything to heart. But it is just a message board and, as my mother has said to me many times over the years regarding various problems I thought were earth-shattering at the time, "Will this matter next week?" It's not worth it to either bait or flame another user or to respond to baits and flames directed at you. Me being the passionate person that I am, I'm still learning this one myself.

I also wanted to commend the mods on a job well-done, since I know you get the thankless task of sorting everything out when baiting and flaming, either subtle or non-subtle, does happen.

 

Well, as you know it's not limited to fan fiction...

There's even a JCF icon that reads TFN, we know DRAMA....

 

There's even a JCF icon that reads TFN, we know DRAMA....

<<Cues in the L&O Bong Bong music>>

 

I love that icon .

I can definitely agree with what everyone's said about writers being a very passionate breed and, as a_g pointed out, prone to oversensitivity. One of my biggest problems has always been taking just about everything personally, and it's something I've been trying to work on since... well, I don't remember a time when I wasn't trying to work on it (lol).

 

I tend to do the same, Jedi_Anakin, and have been called on it many times.

This site does have a propensity towards drama though, in every forum, not just this one. I think the Movie Forums are the worst, which is why I don't post there anymore.

 

Just to clarify a few points?

Typically, you know if you?re subtly baiting or flaming someone. You know your intentions when you post. As mods, if a situation like Breezy suggested happens, we?re not going to step in to clear up that misinterpretation. That isn?t our job. We?re only going to step in if clearly you?re trying to target someone, and both the author and the person targeted are in heated circumstances. I might be generalising here, but you can hardly unintentionally bait and flame someone and have no clue of what you?re doing. If you do, it?s just a misunderstanding and I wouldn?t say that it warrants a warning or a banning. Our general warning was in reference to recent events. The people who were involved in those activities know what we mean, and have gotten the message.

Also, please, just because of recent events that doesn?t mean the boards have a hostile, spiteful atmosphere. People disagree and bicker. There?s always an underlying negative feeling. We?re not heading toward disaster. I have noticed several people on these boards are disturbed by recent activities, but I?d like to reassure you that there?s nothing to stress about. Just enjoy the boards and have a good time . The Fan Fic boards are a very peaceful place.

Thanks,

Am

 

Well, I remember one

The reader said that I was showing Qui-Gon and Mace the wrong way. My story was bad because about it.

I got little upset with the reader and one of my readers got upset too.

After little while I made peace with the reader who said that. I did not want have a battle in my story. Still is not nice make bad nasty comments in somebody else story.

There here many writers that write for fun, but not for make any money.

 

There have been incidents in which a reader didn't like the way a writer portrayed a character, and while fortunately we haven't had anything along the lines of Misery here, there has been some nastiness among fans of different characters.

I personally don't like stories that portray Anakin in a bad light (actually I don't like one-dimensional characters at all, and one reason I like Anakin so much is that he's not a goody-two-shoes, so I prefer stories in which neither he nor any other character is portrayed as a Gary Stu). So I do the simplest solution--don't click on them if I can avoid it. It keeps me from getting my blood pressure up. If I accidently see a story that portrays Anakin as a brat, I duck out quietly. There's no need to leave the author a nastygram--none of us are professional here. (Actually, Patty, sounds like what happened to you might have been an outright flame rather than a subtle one.)

 

Just a sidenote from me :

Once, in a very different board, someone said to me he felt insulted by what I said.

I tried to say that this hasn't ever been my intention there.

He kept on saying I was flaming.

I was totally embarassed, because I honestly never meant to insult anyone !

As it turned out, it became clear that I had been misinterpreted.

I see this example as a warning : You could easily be misinterpreted and thus be accused of flaming.

So please try to use open, clear formulations in your sentences, or even try to do so, more, if English is not your first language (like it is in my case).

 

okay going to sound really stupid now, but what is baiting?

I know what flaming is...but I've never come across baiting.

 

Baiting is "Let's say this and see how so-and-so reacts."

 

Owh ah aha. That says a lot. Thanks!

 

Thank you anakin_girl I shoul link in your stories. I like too the nice Anakin.

 

You can about walk baiting backwards from flamming; its about the same thing, only that someone is trying to incite you to respond in a way that may/can/will get you banned.

And to the best of my knowledge this is the first time baiting is being acknowledged as a problem being dealt with here; if not my files are out of date. Regardless its about time; I've seen some 'enticers' lately, laying bait out to spring the trap; its' really, really curved my reading of anything new.

Granted, folks are sensitive to criticism, even constructive; even the truth to a small degree. Everyone comes here for a wide variety of reasons: some for writing improvement, some just for fun. The assumption, by accident and not intentional (and for a few it is intentional), leans to the former of that statement. So someone tries to be helpful, and the next thing you know you have an author that leaves and never comes back. That'll stain the person big time and with the cruelty of the Boards good luck trying to get readers.

But to be fair, some of that fault does lie on the author. True, there are folks that target and flame/bait with extreme prejuidice in the guise of 'helping out', but there are folks genuinely trying to help. To some degree -- small -- a author puts themselves in the line of fire once they click on the Post Reply. Once you do that, those thoughts you put down are forever digitally archieved for everyone to see at that very moment. Its like a diver with a open wound jumping into shark infested waters.

I do recommend that if the author does not want such critics the best way to curb them is to post, in the very first post at the time you created the thread, a message that criticism of any kind is not warranted. At any time, with unlimited edits, you can change the rule. You can say 'wait until the story's finished'. Now if someone posts something that bothers you, you can show them page one, post one and ASK THEM POLITELY to edit their post. I'm sure a responsible and understanding member of the community will in fact follow through with said wish. If need be it wouldn't hurt to contact a Mod, but only to keep an eye on the situation (if and when possible) to ensure follow through. Of course if you think it is a flame/bait, then get ahold of a Mod to weigh in.

Now this may sound like cliq creating or pat-on-the-backs, but if a person is only here to tell a story, such as myself who knows he has writing issues and doesn't need a reminder, then who cares? The point for them is F-U-N. Fun. We don't need no one pointing out our flaws. If it drives them to drink that badly, then they should leave the thread and go sober up. And oh yeah not post on the way out.

 

Well, one thing that bothers me is when authors ask their readers for their honest opinion about a story, but then get offended if the reader says that they didn't like a specific element of the story or how a character reacted, etc...

Does something like that count as flaming, or is that just an author's over-sensitivity? It just seems that if you ask for someone's opinion that you shouldn't get in a huff if they give you it.

 

It depends on the way the critique came out. If the respondent writes: "This sucks. You don't know the first thing about SW, your characterization is off, your grammar is terrible, and you need to get a spell check or else you shouldn't bother posting", that would be a bit harsh and I would definitely consider that a flame.

On the other hand, if someone wrote: "I felt the characterization of Qui-Gon Jinn was a little off because of x, y, z reason. I did like the way you had him say,"..." because it reminded me of what he told Obi-Wan in TPM. Also, your characterization of Obi-Wan was done pretty well." That would be a non-flaming critique that is perfectly acceptable.