A General Warning - Subtle baits and flames

That actually happened to me once...an author posted a questionairre, and I answered it, honestly. There was no overt criticism, just a few things like, "This story isn't perfect, but none are..." or "this character could have seen more development..." etc...

The author responded by saying something like, "Ouch, that was harsh! Well, I wrote this for fun not to achieve literary awards, bla bla bla..."

I just went back and deleted everything I wrote and left a blank post. The author did the same thing with my reply. Rather than going back and saying, "Hey, you asked for my opinion!" I just avoided a possible escalation by taking it all back.

I'm not sure if that helps, but I wrote a PM to the author, apologizing rather than saying the obvious. Sometimes you need to swallow your own pride to make things work.

*shrugs*

 

What I don't like is when someone critics your story, and says nothing constructive what so ever in
how you can go about improving what was wrong. It's a nasty little kick in the pants that no author
needs when that occurs. Especially when the author could be a rather shy individual about their writings
in the first place. Nothing makes a person feel lower when that happens, and it happens far too often
here.

I can also think of nothing more petty when someone points out grammar errors in the story thread
instead of sending the author a nice PM offering some Beta work for the story. I haven't seen that
problem here in awhile which is great. But I have seen it personally, and in other stories as well. It
makes you wanna say 'thanks for nothing'.

I had no idea folks were having such problems though with flames and baiting. I'm usually a reader that
sticks with only certain authors for stories though. I end up enjoying someone's work and I never leave
them.

In the last year I've only had one stinker with a poster so I guess that's pretty good.

Bad blood brews between folks sometimes that interact so often with each other, especially large
groups like us. It's kind of the big family effect when you have like thirty people living in a house
intended for two. If that makes sense..

 

starwbabe: Yeah, that's the trick: they want honesty, you give them honesty, and the next thing you know you're the poster child for flamming. True, what you say and how it comes out makes a difference as LadyPadme pointed out.

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But on the other hand, they did ask for honesty. Some folks get honesty and they can't handle it: again, sharks and water: that is the risk the author takes whenever they ask for critique/opinion, whenever they start a thread and ask. This is, for the most part, public domain and what one does out in the open is subject -- unless said otherwise as mentioned in my first post -- to some level of scrutiny.

Now with that said, as as the Mods have stressed, the honest opinion stops at constructive criticism. 'This sucks' or other comments in that vein are not constructive criticism; how does that critique improve someone's writing?

Again for authors lets stress this again: GET A MOD! Do not go to your friends and launch a campaign of hellfire and brimstone, which as Cynical pointed out happens too much; the drawback of cliqs of course. A Mod can see it, weigh it and determine whether or not it crossed that fine line.

As Sara_Kenobi pointed out, one safe way to avoid 'out in the open' thread skirmishes is to PM the author. Offer to Beta Read, or just simply point out that they misspelled something. The author may thank you. Then again the author may chew you up and spit you out. If so, then just leave the thread: apparently the author doesn't want you as a reader, then why waste anymore time at a place where you're not wanted; don't respond, just leave. Is it rude? No, because you're smartly removing yourself from a hostile situation. If the author is persistantly rude after that, then contact a Mod.

This action can be reversed as well: if the reader is persistantly causing trouble, you could ask him/her to leave. A radical thought? Well....yeah: in some of us we have a lusting for readers. We want readers to come in, not go out. It's unheard of. It's uncanny.

It has been done.

I've done it to a lurker. I appreciate my lurkers who PM me, but I had one who critiqued my handling of plot continunity. I politely told him/her that it intentional on my part and if he/she waited they would see it. I got a few more emails questioning the whole idea, which finally I just told him/her if it bothered them that obsessively, then perhaps he/she better read another story, which I further reminded him/her that I was the author: if they could do better, then they had my blessing to try. As far as I know he/she didn't read any further, but I stopped getting PMs and emails, and he/she has gone on to read other stories. He/she don't write. That tells me enough about he/she.

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This may be limiting, but get to know the author before you post. It never hurts to PM first, get a feel for the person. The safe bet, of course, is post only where you know the author. Silly if you wanna stretch your reading list to other authors you haven't read before, but go in cautiously. Remember: when in doubt, just don't post.

I think, too, that this should also be a reminder while I'm thinking about it: if someone stops reading your fic, respect their wishes: DO NOT STALK THEM! There have been incidents in the past. If you stop reading and this occurs, contact a Mod and/or Administrator IMMEDIATELY IF YOU FEEL STALKED!

 

This is just a useless post from me saying that I completely agree with Casper.

After all, excal and I ask for criticism in our stories, and we get them. We treat each comment seriously, rather than saying, "Well, HE'S wrong and WE'RE right."

Bottom line is--if ya don't wanna hear it, then don't ask for it. It's that simple.

Simplicity works, people.

 

Taking the time to thank the MODS for their hard work to keep the boards friendly.

 

On the flip side of answering an author's request for honest answers... Try the two-fer (or, if it's REALLY hard to think of two... one-fer)...

You know, two nice things (even if it's "hey this is a nice start, have you written fan fic before?") for any words of critique you might have... either on the boards or via PM...

 

Actually, if you contact an administrator, I can pretty much guarantee that they won?t know heads or tails about the situation. However, if you?re desperate, I know that KnightWriter patrols the Fan Fiction boards sometimes. He?s the one to contact only if I?m not on, or if Kit isn?t on.

Some good advice in this thread. Thanks for the encouragement directed at the administration. We appreciate it .

Am

 

What I don't like is when someone critics your story, and says nothing constructive what so ever in
how you can go about improving what was wrong. It's a nasty little kick in the pants that no author
needs when that occurs. Especially when the author could be a rather shy individual about their writings
in the first place. Nothing makes a person feel lower when that happens, and it happens far too often
here.

I have had this problem to. There are three types of reviews. There is the constructive by people who really want to help you they do that by PM's not in the thread. Those who like your story. Then those that are not constructive and will say nasty things to you. I had that happen at FF.net once. I sent e-mail after e-mail to FF.net. Until they banned him after weeks of me sending e-mails.

I can also think of nothing more petty when someone points out grammar errors in the story thread
instead of sending the author a nice PM offering some Beta work for the story. I haven't seen that
problem here in awhile which is great. But I have seen it personally, and in other stories as well. It
makes you wanna say 'thanks for nothing'.

I agree with ever thing said there.

As for baits and flames I have not really seen that happen here in the fanfic boards.

 

I saw it a lot in debate forums (not so much the Senate floor, but in forums where actual changes on the boards were being discussed).

Thankfully, it's not as often as it could be, but the fact that it exists is disheartening.

 

However, if you?re desperate, I know that KnightWriter patrols the Fan Fiction boards sometimes. He?s the one to contact only if I?m not on, or if Kit isn?t on.


I try .

 

True on the admin deal. KnightWriter (try if he can. ) would be next on the contact tree after Kit' and A_S. In hindsight, unless its a total Troll attack, just PMs to those three and patience ought to do it. If otherwise, or its just too damn persistant to be a coincidence, then contact anyone of authority immediately. Remember: Report All Trolling!

Darth Breezy's approach is a good one if the person is looking for criticism. That way the good points outnumber the bad. It's another example of a ounce of prevention equalling a pound of cure.

The Senate Floor IS THE be all and end all place for baiting. If you wanna see an extreme example just go over there and hang out: eventually its one topic a day where stuff gets flaming hot (pardon the pun.).

 

I think it's a lot hotter in the Movie Forums--there is actual name-calling and utter nastiness there.

 

OH YES! I do recall the twenty or so SW vs LOTR thread disasters quite well as a 'great' example. The last one I was at lasted 27 (very evil, very sick, body parts everywhere kind of insults) posts and that was even started by an Administrator I think. To those who took sides, it wouldn't have mattered if the owner of TF.N started the thread.

All that was missing was the prevebral kitchen sink, which I wouldn't have doubted it for an instant if someone actually got mad enough and used one on their very own computer. They took the 'versus' part of the title waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too close to heart.

 

I have made the exoperience, that honesty is generally a good thing , but it is somehow important in what kind of words it is wrapped.

You can be honest and hurt at the same time, and you can be honest and soothing wounds.

It's a matter of words.

I call it "diplomacy language".

 

Hmm, this thread has kind of exploded

I think what we are talking about here, are people making comments that they think are going to make other people explode - and not doing it accidently either.

I honestly think that many constructive comments that authors recieve on their thread are just that - constructive comments. Some times, however, it goes far past that into pure meanness and that is when the baits/flames come into play.


Anyway, I'd like to thank everyone for expressing their thoughts on what to do if someone baits you. Please, if it does happen - just contact Am and myself - don't feed/fuel the person flaming by responding in kind. It will only get you in trouble also.

Kithera

 

Please I need help. Somedy else say that my story was a sprawling epic? I am not upset. The reader left a happy face. so what the reader tried to say?

Thank you.

 

Sprawling means that it's extended in every direction. The basic definition of an epic is that it is a long poem narrating the deeds of a hero. So it sounds like the reader was simply making a comment about your story.

 

Thank you Jane Jinn. English is not my native language,so I got little confuse about it.

 

One of my favorite methods of handling flames was covered by professional writer John Scalzi in his blog a few months ago. He stated that unless one was his wife, child, or a paying client, he didn't really care what negative responses were sent or posted about his work, and in fact that he rated flames for their entertainment value. He goes on in that post to give detailed instructions on how to really flame him well, but as hilarious as it is, I can't post a link to an article on creative uses of profanity here.

It's a sad fact of life that when one works hard and puts something out for public consumption that sooner or later someone with way too much time on his or her hands will try to bring the creator down.

Go ahead and take that risk. When your story feels right and true, post it. As you read your feedback, take what you need and leave the rest, then go play with your cat, dog, kid, significant other, whatever. Those who do nurture you will give you the strength to deal with the many who will not.

Cheers!

 

As JazzyJedi points out there are folks that can handle it. What a few of us have suggested so far are ways to communicate that before hand, or communicate that you don't handle it well. Think of them as 'thought speedbumps'; knowing what the author would like in response, remembering the bumps slow you down and go over any response you may have slowly.

As folks post, especially when they are posting on a first timer's story thread, they should remind themselves about the very first time they posted. There had to be some level of fear and apprehension; it exists, the levels dependant on the confidence and assurance of the individual. That fact alone, even if that person indicates that they want constructive criticism, should tender and control the response. You don't know that person from your family, and emoticons can be counterproductive at times in responses so think wisely about using them too.

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I think this thread grew legs, Kit', for two very strong reasons. First, I really do think the Oldies want to tell the Newbies how to avoid misunderstandings that will get people in trouble.

The second is as Pattty and someone else pointed out that English is not their strong suit. The latter, unfortunately, is a bit of a bane when dealing with a multi-national arena of the internet. Its not anyone's fault, don't get me wrong; its just one of those little things that can catch someone totally off guard in responses, and that goes both ways. The internet that supposedly brings everyone together at times -- thanks to programming language translations in software,etc. and the limited language/cultural education all around -- can be the real troublemaker. It's a bit compounded -- not on purpose mind you -- since TheForce.Net and the boards there in are an American-based, American hosted website.

So a lot of us want to bend over backwards when it comes to this point. Responsible members of FanFiction, and the Boards abroad, recognize that this is an internationally connected place. We don't want misunderstandings to become flame wars and we don't want to leave anyone out.

 

Oh! Casper_Knightshade thank you, but I left out the word "my"

"English is not my native language, so I asked about what the author said in my story"

Good points Casper_Knightshade.

 

You're welcome.

And as folks can see people here can be self-correcting.

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I missed Kit's part of the post there about intentional subtle flammers/baiters; which is what this thread is about. We covered stuff that was intricately related in someways as we should.

But the warning is true and so is the threat. There are folks here -- Newbies and even Oldbies -- that have no conscious. No remorse. No regrets. They will literally try to take you out, their reasons varying from doing this out of pleasure, or to prove something to their 'friends', or for the very selfish and heavy handed belief that by chasing you away with their comments they stand a better chance of getting more readers.

In the latter its view like this: with you ('you' being a general term for anyone here and not Pattty or anyone in particular btw) out of the way, then that means someone scanning through the Boards looking for fiction won't come across your story. You see you left because of what they did to you. You don't post, you don't report the abuse, and therefore your thread drifts on down to the pages of obscurity.

Meanwhile with their dirty deed unreported, they continue to up or update their story threads knowing there is one less 'reader stealer' on the Boards they have to worry about. And this just isn't authors that do this: readers will take these steps if they believe they will get more people to read their favorite author's work; a kind of twisted form of fan worshipping going to an extreme; and it has happened. In both cases, as you can see, they attack you -- or me or anyone else here -- because they perceive you as a threat towards their extreme selfish ambitions.

Why exactly do these.....'people' (I want to use stronger language, but I can't) do this? If we had the exact answer to it all we would have a sure fire cure. But we don't, and unfortunately there are more of these bait/flames than we can ever know about because they go unreported. The Mods will be the first ones to tell you: they can't see everything. They're not fortune tellers and -- ironic since this is a SW fansite -- they're not Jedi Knights.

We all kind of/sort of gave you tips to avoid any potential misunderstandings, but the point of the thread is to recognize this problem as a reality that needs to come to a end. Suspect a bait/flame? Or it is blantantly a bait/flame? GET A MOD! and nip it in the bud. Because, if you think about it, you may not have been the first victim. You may not be the last either.

The end begins with all of us.

It begins with one.

 

Here's my two cents:

I have read stories I could barely understand but yet embedded in them are very moving plots that I enjoy. If that is the case, I at least tell them that.

One thing I realy do not like is the author who is good, knows it, and very subtly or sometimes not so subtly berates a less experienced author or possibly one from another country and not as familiar with our language. The "ELITE", best of the best authors should be helpful is a less critical way.

Some authors, like myself are not as blessed with prose as the really excellent authors on the FF board are. What comes easy for certain writers is a difficult task taken by others who only wish they were half as good. We are not Jedi and have feelings. Real feelings that can hurt really badly when someone is so critical of them after they have worked so hard on a story, even if to someone else it isn't very good.

If you took the time to read it, surely you can find something redeeming to say about it or like my mother use to say,"If you don't have something good to say about someone, then don't say anything at all."

LIKE I SAID, just my two cents.

PEACE ewen

 

Casper Knightshade: True on the admin deal. KnightWriter (try if he can. ) would be next on the contact tree after Kit' and A_S. In hindsight, unless its a total Troll attack, just PMs to those three and patience ought to do it. If otherwise, or its just too damn persistant to be a coincidence, then contact anyone of authority immediately. Remember: Report All Trolling!

What is trolling? I thought that was insisting that your readers to vote for your stories or you wouldn't post, but this sounds rather different.

 

Trolling is similar to baiting.

It's going onto a thread and saying something contrary to what the thread's purpose is, trying to derail the thread, trying to piss everyone there off.

An example would be going into the Mara Jade Fan Club and bashing Mara.