A Jedi getting married!?!?!

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by Gotenss, Jun 11, 2002.

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  1. Maj-Odo_Taji Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 1
    I just thought about this....but hiding your marriage, if you were a Jedi. WOuldn't that violate the search for knowledge referenced in the Jedi Code?

    Watched Episode I last night for some reason. And it wa smy version of it...yeah, you got it, the ten minute version with all the lightsaber fights. ;) Anyways...watched Episode I and I realized I would have DSP'd Obi-Wan at least twice in the final fight with Maul.

    Much chagrinned,
    Maj-Odo Taji
  2. Jauhzmynn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    Blue scholar,
    Your are right but to a point, The ends does not always justify the means. Not allthe time,there has tobe consistancy. One's MOTIVES of their heart are what drives them to the Darkside. If they have evil intentions anyway,somethingvery little will drive'em over the edge. Other then that I agree with you on what you've uncovered thus far. :) And yes, Love does play a big part. A selfless, w/o strings type of love keeps one away from the Darkside.
    What a revolution. :))

    A tad philosophical for a mere Padawan eh? :)

    Padawan jauhzmynn
  3. Sian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2002
    star 1
    Bluescribe, you are right to some extent. If Obi-Wan would have lost, there would be no one to raise Anakin as a Jedi, and then he wouldn't be Vader, and it is not because he is Vader that Luke is born. Luke could still be born, and Anakin would not be a Sith lord. But then again, if Obi-Wan would have lost, no one would have introduced Luke into the ways of the Jedi, and thus, no one to thwart the Empiror.
  4. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    What actions would you have given Obi-Wan DSPs for?
  5. bluescribe Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2002
    You're absolutely right, motives do make the difference. But did Obi-Wan have any other motive other than to avenge his Master's death? Is avenging the death of one justification enough to kill another?

    Back to the topic of marriage, it could be determined that marriage within the Order is beneficial to everyone. Such bonds would strengthen the Order's interdependence on its members and provide another advantage: a way for the Order to relate to the rest of the Galaxy.

    Think of it, the Order's asceticism, while proving able to keep most away from temptation, also would have removed their ability to be empathic to the needs and wants of the populace they were sworn to protect. While this may not seem important, it would become very difficult to peacefully negotiate without some understanding of what each party was going through.

    And had Anakin not been trained, would there still have been a Luke? The Council wanted nothing to do with him, that much is sure. Without Obi-Wan gunning for him, it's doubtful that would have changed. They may have given him to Padme's court to deal with, but then the question is raised as to how Padme would have reacted later on to an all grown up "Anni". As a Jedi, he was forbidden, and any girl will tell you the temptation of that one guy she wasn't supposed to have. It's possible that she would have felt more like a mother to him than anything else. Is this idle conjecture? Absolutely. Interesting side question? You bet.

    My solution to Obi-Wan's little foray to the Dark Side would have been simple, no DSPs at all, and leave it alone. But the Dark Side was explained to me as being something that became ever more tempting to use after that first touch, so I would probably come up with something to stack the odds against him later on, make it so that he would be even more tempted to let his emotions guide him. After all, it worked once.

    Overall, I think that truly good Jedi would have been able to marry, within or outside the Order, with few problems. If their hearts were truly pure in intent, the use of the Dark Side would not affect them that much.

    And padawan, be careful with that philosophy. It leads to diarrhea of the word processor... just look at my posts.
  6. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    Hey, philosophy rocks; we need more of it.

    I think that Obi-Wan was motivated by more than vengeance in the fight against Maul. He knew that the Sith could not be allowed to escape or he would be a threat to other Jedi and the galaxy at large; plus there was the fact that Maul would have killed him if he had not killed Maul. Self defense is not an evil act.

    According to the Tales of the Jedi comics, marriage was not always forbidden to the Jedi. I think that is a fairly recent (within the last 1000 years) addition to the Code. The problem is that strong emotions will produce strong reactions. When the reason that a Jedi loves is threatened, he is more likely to react out of anger or overreact to protect his loved one. I see why they would forbid it, as the Order became increasingly monastic, but I agree that such rules contributed to the isolation and eventual fall of the Jedi.
  7. Jauhzmynn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    I think the jedi's downfall isn't how theylove, it's the isolation itself. Grab a jedi kid and stick 'em ina real world situation and she or he is overwhelmed w/ it and can't deal with the rush of emotions. Trust me on this on, Been through it, Belive me it sucks. The culture shock sucks at times. You can learn everything, but being cloistered in the Temple doesn't tell you how to make the lessons "live". I can learn to use the Force by reading a data pad or seeing someone doing something, but until I acutally attmept what I see and see the effects it has on me and others, I've learned only book knowledge and no practical knowledge. I also have to know how to show someone else, to explain it simply so the padawan understands w/o being utterly confused.

    Ever notice how the young Padawan are competeing w/ each other instead of HELPING one another? Picking on each other and NOONE tries to correct that? Ever wonder if THAT's what drove Anikan over the edge?
    So many Masters are saying "You shouldn't feel, do xyz." but they don't show the person how. I think they forgot what it was like to be a kid going through the teen years and trying to find ones purpsoe. I ask my mentor, "Tell me plainly what you mean. Tell me how to put this into real life application so I can accomplish the goal." When he does, I tell it back to see if I got the lesson, then I go an DO what i heard.
    Oh another beef I have is they never should've told the kid "Youer the most powerful jedi ever." dude can't put presure ona kid like that. Whats up with that?
    Forgive me please. I don't think I'd make it to Knighthood b/c I'll challenge someone to show me where this works cuz i'd WANT to succeed. "Show me." I tend to take a dificult concept and bring it down to it's simpliest form so I can succeed in the lesson being taught to me. I'd pick the Master's brain, and ask lots of questions b/c of the hunger to know. WHy? I'm curious, and teachable.

    Ok rant over, I'm getting outta here before some Jedi master throws me outta here. :)

    Peace
    Mynn
  8. Maj-Odo_Taji Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 1
    Fingorfin wrote:

    What actions would you have given Obi-Wan DSPs for?



    ---------------------------------------------

    There is a part of the duel between Obi-Wan and Maul after QUi-Gon gets nailed. Obi-Wan is swinging alot more forcefully, even edging on "wild" swings at times. That would be edgy, but the real kicker comes when he crosses sabers with Maul right before he is Force Pushed into the well. The look on Obi-Wan's face is one of anger and hatred, something the Dark Side uses for corruption of the Light.

    I guess it is only one point then. ;) We aren't privy to character thoughts, so we only have body language and an "aura" of feeling that the actor or actress portrays and exudes.


    Regards,
    Maj-Odo Taji


    P.S.- The one thing I always loved about the WEG write-up of Obi-Wan during the New Hope period was that he had several DSP's. If my memory is wrong, forgive me, but I'm almost 100% on that one. If you ask me, having a DSP or even two if you are of higher level isn't necessarily all that bad. Teaching for or against something is easiest when the subject is known first-hand.
  9. Sian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2002
    star 1
    Yes, and since Obi-Wan used the Force to take a life, he might have gained a DSP. And since he killed Maul while under the emotions of anger and hatred, he would also gain DSP. If I remember it right, Obi-Wan has 2 DSP in the end of Episode IV: A New Hope, and the fight with Maul would be where he got both of them.
  10. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    I think that Obi-Wan did have control over his anger during the fight with Maul. I think that the shot that Maj-Odo_Taji refers to shows the intensity of the fight, and the difficulty that Obi-Wan was having rather than a hatred for Maul. Remember that he was fighting alone against an opponent that was twice his level. ;)

    Obi-Wan did not use the Force to take a life; he used it to amplify his combat abilities and give him an advantage over Maul. A character does not receive a DSP for killing an opponent while using battle mind. Again, he did not slay Maul purely for the sake of vengeance, but to protect his own life and the galaxy.
  11. Jauhzmynn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    HUmm. I see nothing wrong in protecting your own life is some joker's trying to kill you. Now if Obi Force chocked Darth Maul for kicks, yeah, he's in deep Bantha poo for sure. Concidering how mericelss Maul ws in dealinjg w/ anyone and HOW he killed Qui Gon, I'd be shocked and broken hearted. :(
    What's the DPS or DSp?

    Jauhzmynn
  12. Maj-Odo_Taji Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 1
    I agree that a DSP for killing Maul is not in order. I'm not so sure about Obi-Wan not giving-in to his anger, though. This one is a personal interpretation if there ever was one, but I always saw that last little scene before Obi-Wan got knocked intot he well as a lesson of sorts.

    Crossed sabers are hissing and Obi-Wan grits his teeth, sneering at Maul who is no doubt smiling, gritting his teeth right back at him. Obi-Wan starts to push Maul's saber down slowly, a true test of strengths, and suddenly Obi-Wan's face goes slack! In an instant, Obi-Wan's saber is thrust up and away form Maul's and a Force Push is leveled right at the skilled Padawan's face, sending him tumbling into the well!

    I always kind of explained it as Obi-Wan was giving into the Dark Side a bit, perhaps actually HATING Maul for striking Qui-Gon down, and then fighting back for justice of course, but also in vengeance. That is when Maul takes the initiative, he senses the Dark Side entering Obi-Wan's psyche, and then he strikes out.

    But a good argument either way really, there is no telling.

    I have a question here: Who here would react brashly, irl, if their parent, best friend or someone very significant in their life were struck down? I have no hesitation in saying I'd be a DSP-gaining bastard!!!


    He who would use Force Choke quite liberally,
    Maj-Odo Taji
  13. Sian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2002
    star 1
    If any of my friends or family was killed before my eyes, I'd try to restrain my emotions as good as I can, because, after all, a person who's angry isn't very good at fighting. But heck, who can blame them, I'd go berserk over such an event.
  14. Jauhzmynn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    I can and do understand that. I also understand the emotions when one 's lif eis threatened too. I was forced to attack some mugger but only from self defense. Oddly I felt no emotion but slight suprise that I'd hit the guy and broke a bone on 'em with one punch. I was also a bit nervous, but didnt show it, cuaslly walked off til they couldnt seen me then ran a full half mile til i got home. Even if they gave chase they'd wouldn't caugh me.:D

    Any martial arts master or Jedi's gonna tellya' have to keep control no matter what espically never let your opponent know how and where you'll strike back.

    At any rate, I hope I never have to see such a thing.

    Mynn
  15. bluescribe Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2002
    That sense of calmness and control during combat that you touched on is the foundation of Jedi combat techniques. You should be in a rational place in a combat situation, as you are able to judge an opponent much better. As we have seen, though, at times rage, anger, a thirst for vengence, etc., can be beneficial.

    I would put forth the theory that the reason the Jedi are losing their powers is their abstinance from the Dark Side. Anakin is repeatedly referred to as "the one who will restore balance to the Force". Part of this balance is represented on a large scale, as the Sith have been virtually eliminated while the Jedi have become rampant. However, the balance of the Force can also be seen as personal, individual. Perhaps the Jedi towards the end of the Old Republic, due to their isolationist ways, had succeeded so well in repressing their darker emotions, maybe all their emotions, so well that they no longer were as tempted to give into them, as normal, "mundane" folks are. This individual imbalance could be so unnatural and out of sync with the Force that it results in the complete removal of ability.

    Obi-Wan may have been motivated by more than vengence when fighting Maul, probably was. But we come back to the argument of "do the ends justify the means?".

    A Jedi should be in perfect self-control, with complete knowledge of their limitations and of their abilities. If Obi-Wan possessed this level of self-knowledge and control, he would have seen clearly that Maul outclassed him (if any of you haven't yet, try to find Robert Brown's excellent dissertation on lightsabre techniques and examination of the fight scenes). In knowing this, perhaps Obi-Wan allowed his emotions to come through a little more than usual.

    The Dark Side has always been explained as a way of doing things quicker than the light. The obvious disadvantge to this is that you gain none of the respect for the power you suddenly have that you would have gained had the power come through months (years, decades) of study. Still, if a Jedi could learn when to turn on and off this emotional flow, using only when needed, to achieve goals that in a more rational, emotionless state of mind they have decided upon, they could be quite a force.

    There is an obvious need for consistency, which is why I have enver liked the idea of grey Jedi or "Dark Side Powers". Grey Jedi seem to be able to use whatever they want to get the job done, but don't seem to have to reckon with the moral repercussions as much as they should. I haven't had much experience with them overall, but I fail to see the point--they're the kind of super-character that destroys gameplay. I can see arguments for them, and I admit that the concept is sound if in need of some serious rework.

    The idea of powers belonging only to the Dark Side, however, is preposterous; Force Choke and Force Lightning seem to be the two that suffer this fate more than others. But an ability has no inherent moral leanings. A Jedi could use Force Choke for any number of different uses, not the least of which would be to restrain others, provided it was not to the point of lethality, in order to avoid using methods that might only escalate the situation (think of cops and stun guns). And Force lightning is even easier to twist to the Light Side. Who wouldn't want to be able to generate some juice to jump start a landspeeder in a pinch?

    Luckily, we have the benefit of the demi-god GMs to work out all these moral conundrums, but GMs should be able to do so in a thorough, coherent manner. "You can fry him with some lightning because he would have killed others." is an argument, true, but one must pay attention to the other details. Would the fried bad-guy to be really going to hurt others, would there have been other ways to remove the threat less forcefully later on (Jedi must have patience).

    This may sound like I'm refuting my previous statements, but I'm not. The Jedi were based primarily on the samurai, and from them we can take a conclusion to our discussions. While the samurai fought with self-c
  16. Jauhzmynn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    Well said Blue Scholar. Well said. :)

    Padawan Jauhzmynn
  17. Jauhzmynn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    Ops please forgive me, it's Blue Scribe.
    :)
    Jauhzmynn
  18. -Kyle-Katarn- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    Well, let me explain my character's roleplay. We play very differently than most, we don't give out very much experience at all, (maybe 500-750 for a 1-hour gaming session), and we modified the death rule, so when you die, you lose 1000 experience and cannot participate in the rest of that mission, as losing our characters would be catastrophic.

    I've been playing for nearly a month now, over 15 missions, and I'm level 5. Level 3 Soldier, Level 2 Dark Side Marauder, DSP-1. My character falls is similar to what could be called the 'grey Jedi' archetype, without the Jedi part. He meditates to bring his DSP down, and only uses dark side powers when in extreme anger or pressure. (Our GM rarely, if ever, hands out Force Points, even for the most heroic acts). I find that this kind of character can still manage to cooperate in a group, and is a very interesting type character to play.

    I present to you a major problem with the Star Wars movies so far. With the exception of Yoda vs Dooku, the battles in which the light side won, they won through releasing their anger and hatred.

    Example, Luke Skywalker fighting Vader. Vader definately has the upper hand until he sends Luke into a fit of rage with a quip about his sister. He then ferociously attacks Vader, relentlessly assaulting him until he chops off his hand. Oh, but then he has the easiest time putting on his happy light side face and tossing aside his saber...wow, nice example of the relentless seduction of the dark side, eh?

    Another example is Obi-Wan in Episode 1: Yeah...Obi-Wan was losing badly, until the death of Qui-gon sent him into an uncontrollable rage, viciously going on the offensive against Maul, striking his saber in half, and kicking him.

    Just some examples of where the movies contradict themselves a bit in the matter of 'Fully Light or Fully Dark'.

    Katarn
  19. bluescribe Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2002
    The movies do seem to contradict themselves. That's why I always felt calling them the "Holy Triogy" was so apt. Like most religious texts, the contradictions are almost par for the course. Also, and I know I'm going to get flack from somebody on this, that is why I disregard them at will.

    As Lucas said before releasing the new movies, so far we have seen only an old man, a cripple, and an inexperienced boy use lightsabres. Include the new movies, and you add to that list a single-minded combat machine, and members of an Order that was dying due to its flawed and completely disfunctional philosophy.

    Yoda and Dooku are the only ones I have seen in the movies that qualified as "old school" Jedi and Sith.

    We were given only the roughest of depictions of the Force in the movies. At the height of the Jedi, I expect that there was a lot of grey area, that there had to be.

    To turn the Force into a duality, you limit yourself incredibly. Light and Dark are opposite, they have to be to make the disinction in a duality clear. But as any existentialist will tell you, absolutes in morality are completely false from the get go.

    Light is supposed to represent all that is "good", Dark, all that is "evil". But conceptions of what are good and evil change over time in any culture, and the situation becomes very mercurial in Star Wars, where aside from the passage of time, you have countless cultures and species interacting together.

    Think of some of the differences between Christian and Muslim. Polygamy is seen as sinful in most Christian thought, but to some Muslims it is perfectly allowed. In fact, polygamy predates both, and so does monogamy.

    So what is a Jedi to conceive of as good? The good as the majority sees it? If so, on what scale? Planetary? Galactic?

    Even things that seem as relatively safe to call good, such as the preservation of life, can be made suspect. It was practice in some Hindu sects to have the wife of a dead husband throw herself on his funeral pyre. Who would we be to call this wrong, simply because it does not agree with our own moral inclinations?

    Campy as it might sound, good could only be represented as freedom with any relative safety. That is, freedom to choose one's own life path. The Jedi towards the end of the Old Republic, obviously interfered with that. Even the above conception of good as freedom has flaws. Who were the Jedi to interfere with the choice of the Sith to be Sith?

    The above examples show not only the futility of gleaning a complete understanding of good and evil from sourcebooks and movies, and the great need to have it included in some way in your game. I would recommend that GMs start talking about these subjects with their players.

    I think the only way to correctly state the nature of the Force is balance, and that there is no "Fully Light or Fully Dark", only those leaning more to one side or the other. Those who try to polarize it are only going against it.

    Does this mean that there are only Grey Jedi? No, since individual beings will always slip somewhat one way or another. A true Master, however, in my mind, would have reached such a point in his understanding of the Force that his actions would be completely one with those of the Force. A kind of automaton. But such a character would also be completely unplayable.
  20. Jauhzmynn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    ladies and gentlemen,
    I have throughly enjoyed this thread. Thank you for a most awesome thread and stimualting conversation. :)
    grace and peace to you

    padawan jauhzmynn
  21. Maj-Odo_Taji Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 1
    >>>> Does this mean that there are only Grey Jedi? No, since individual beings will always slip somewhat one way or another. <<<<


    I agree with this statement. Vader was leaning toward the Dark Side of course, but he came back to the Light. It is very possible to switch back and forth, but it is not so easy to find redemption by going to the Light after falling to the Dark.

    Issue came up with a few fellow SW players in a hobby shop recently about earning-off DSP's. To earn-off those DSP's should be a challenge, and possibly a major character arch or a minor campaign arch. To burn them off using just meditation or remorse just isn't enough, IMO. Any thoughts?


    He who refuses to take a cake walk,
    Maj-Odo Taji
  22. Red_Jedi_Knight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2002
    star 3
    umm HI i was wondering, i know a jedi technichly isn't supposted to get married but can she have a relationship with a non-jedi character? that is the non-jedi character starting the relationship... does this make sence?? i sure hope so. thanks!!
  23. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    For a Jedi in the Rise of the Empire era such a relationship is a violation of the Jedi Code. A Jedi is not supposed to develop strong emotional attachments of any kind, because such emotions can tempt the Jedi towards the dark side.
  24. Maj-Odo_Taji Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 1
    Thi smay be a bit brash, but it makes perfect sense to me. The strongest emotional ties a Jedi should have are to his/her Master and to his/her padawan(s). Why?

    As a Father/Mother figure, the Master is a role model that the Jedi should follow. As a parent-child relationship, the Jedi should guide and encourage his/her padawan to do the right thing by following the Light Side of the Force.


    Just an idea I had,
    Maj-Odo Taji
  25. DJernic_Terrizak Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Ok here is how my book goes, it takes place 300 years before Episode 1, there are 2 Jedi Knight couples and they arent married but they, the couples, are in love. but they are Cyrogenically frozen and revived by Luke, seeing that Luke is married and missing the past 340 years they question Luke about his being married and informing him on the old ways find that they too can get married and so they do! and i say Let em love each other!
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