"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack"

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by CrAsHcHaOs, Apr 6, 2008.

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  1. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    Only from a technical standpoint. But you know, if someone points a gun at you, and you know they have every intention of using it, you tend to feel attacked. So technicalities aside, Obi-Wan began the fight and for all practical purposes, he attacked first. That is just my opinion, but I appreciate everyone won't see it that way.
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Is Obi-Wan "pointing" his lightaber at Anakin?

    Obi-Wan merely shows he's ready to defend himself. That is NOT an attack. ( Unless anything in the universe that fails to please Anakin is automatically considered an "attack". )
  3. XAeon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2004
    star 1
    Obi Wan exacted a series of failures in his continued training of Anakin. He admitted it in the OT.

    Obi Wan very reasonably provoked Anakin's attack by assuming a defensive posture.

    Obi Wan plead with Yoda outright, and Yoda reminded him that he couldn't stand up to Palps. Yoda called the final ante. Obi Wan chose to be a Jedi and a defender of what was righteous amongst other things, and follow Yoda's orders.

    Sneaking aboard Padme's vessel was not a wise choice, and Obi Wan would have known better. He should have followed in a lighter of his own or something. The entire situation boils down to poor decision making on behalf of the writer/director, who was trying to expedite "the duel," instead of steadily developing the climax of the plot.

    The plot is perfectly sound, however.

    Obi Wan would probably have felt like : "If I gotta do this, let's get it over with..." Wouldn't you?

    I wouldn't want to hurt anyone, much less someone who I've spoken of as a brother or friend. However, if someone of such deep bearing on mine and other innocents' future were to potentially become an enemy of everything I hold sacred - I'd make damned certain I prepared myself. Even if it meant that drawing my weapon in preparation for defense meant it could potentially catalyze a tragic event.

    Let's get it over with. Let's finish it. If tragedy is what is destined to befall me (us), let's get it over with, as soon as possible - the sooner I can regroup, adapt, and overcome. I promise you I will not let this thing destroy me (us) in the end.

    A guiding principle of the Jedi is patience - this has been almost hammered into the plot incessantly.

    Anakin could NEVER follow this principle before his fall to the dark side.

    As wise as Obi Wan was (as a character, not how he was portrayed at times), and patience existing as an extreme factor in the Jedi alignment of perceptions - it is very reasonable to also presume that his patience is EXACTLY what catalyzed the final fight. Yoda and Obi Wan had already accepted Anakin's fall as THE tragedy, and whatever followed was a natural course of events (the duel, the empire, etc) in respect to said tragedy.

    Yoda failed at stopping Palps. Obi Wan loved Anakin too much to witness or carry out Vader's absolute annihilation.

    If there is or was a prophecy, Yoda and Obi Wan carried out their part - there is no need to question it in light of the events surrounding the conclusion of the saga.

    Let's say Obi Wan would have "negotiated with less aggression," and Anakin had returned to the light - would he have been strong enough to defeat Palps? Yoda wasn't. The Jedi Order had already been effectively elliminated. Anakin hadn't enough time to temper his patience. He would have slid back to the dark, or died.

    Anakin's patience was finally tempered by the agony of his lost loved ones, that ever-present dangling carrot of chance that he might usurp the emporer, and the hope that existed that he might yet retain a righteous legacy through the beacon of light that his offspring (NOT JUST Luke) represented.

    The tragedy transmutes to something far more poetic and brilliant in this darker light.

    Anakin COULD NOT learn the virtue of patience from the light side. The emporer was the only one who could teach him this - first by evil intent (to vanquish his master) - then solidified by the revelation of his family and his own redemption.


    I've said it before: Lucas comes up with great stories - he just doesn't tell them so well.

    Don't point too many fingers at Obi Wan - Obi Wan (and Yoda) were most likely already looking to a brighter future.

    That future existed where Luke AND fair Leia could redeem him. Leia kicked ass down on Endor. Vader knew it.

    "SIISSSSTAAA, SOOOO, U have a TWIN SIISSSSSTAAA... Obi Wan was wise to hide her from me."

    Yeah - Luke didn't redeem Vader by himself.
  4. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    I think that some folks that Yoda's line a little too literally at times.
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That seems to be the case. Lucas has said that Yoda talks in fortune cookies.
  6. SaberSlash Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2008
    star 1
    The truths Jedi cling to are shaped by a certain point of view. (as Obiwan once said)
    From the Jedi's view, attacking the Sith is a defense of the Republic from the oppression of the Sith.
    I always interpreted Yodi's perspective as a broad interpretation of Jedi Philosopy. Jedi don't start wars, they finish them.
  7. Obironsolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 1
    The debate over whether Obi-Wan ignited his saber first seems irrelevant to me, as Obi Wan clearly went to Mustafar to kill Anakin, at Yoda's command. This was his singular intention. To kill Anakin. He was attacking.

    On the flip side, in Return of the Jedi, Luke is actually told by Obi Wan to kill Vader, and Luke refuses.

    So IMO, the original trilogy Jedis, Yoda and old Obi Wan, did believe in "attacking", despite Yoda's quote during Luke's training.

  8. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    It appears that the Jedi, in the person of Yoda who was all that remained, modified some of their philosophies after the Fall in ROTS. One of these altered elements of their teachings might have been the "no attack/yes defense" rule, which is not necessarily in evidence in the PT.
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    And yet he's not the one who attacked! SHOWING UP AND TALKING is not an attack!

    You can say that Obi-Wan attacked all you want, it's not going to make it true!
  10. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    He didn't just show up and talk, he drew his lightsaber and said "I'll do what I must". I don't think he was planning to take the newly crowned Vader to Dex's for dinner using his lightsaber to guide them through the dark streets...
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Still not an attack. Anakin attacked. He even made an "I'm attacking" noise.
  12. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    What was it then? Threat of an attack? In that case, what did Anakin would be called Anticipatory Self Defense. However, I look at it as Obi-Wan attacked and Anakin counter-attacked. When a Jedi pulls out his lightsaber on a Sith, *generally* it means a fight is going to commence. That is what happened in their final battle. Darth Vader had his saber out and although it was pointed at the ground, it signified an attack. What Obi-Wan did in that instance was a counter attack.

    Nonetheless, it was not Obi-Wan's first time attacking. He attacked Darth Maul too.
  13. Obironsolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 1
    So if someone arrives at your house with a gun, opens the door, walks inside and has the gun pointed at you with homicidal intent, by your definition, they are not in the act of attacking you, right? It's not until they pull the trigger that an attack has really taken place?

    Meanwhile, if you defend yourself before they pull the trigger, it is actually you who has attacked them? Self defense = attack, right?

    Only this point of view could deny that Obi Wan was attacking.



  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That, or a little thing we like to call the truth.

    I missed the part about the Mustafar landing platform being Anakin's house; I assume that's explained on the OS somewhere?

    Oh, and Obi-Wan wasn't pointing his lightsaber at Anakin.

    However, I see that the Anakin Apologist faction will never concede. Shrug. On the DVD Anakin attacked Obi-Wan. If Anakin had backed down there would have been no fight.

    As usual, standing up to Anakin in any way is considered an attack. Wouldn't it be nice if the whole universe just did what he wanted all the time?
  15. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    Anakin had his back to Obi-Wan at the time and his lightsaber was disengaged and clipped to his belt. Obi-Wan drew his lightsaber and ignited it.

    So just for the sake of discussion, what did Obi-Wan's above action amount to in that situation? What do we call it?
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
  17. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    Most people who go into battle situations would say that they're fighting to defend something - a person, a territory or an ideal. Often both sides think they're defending God.
  18. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    in my world i call that preparing to defend one's self.

    i haven't watched the scene in a while, it's my least favorite movie of the PT, but iirc Anakin jumps ignites his saber as his attack move and kenobi counters with the sword he just readied.

    if my memory is correct Anakin would have had to concentrate to pull that move off, he sort of would have tensed before jumping. He'd have gathered his concentration to use the force.

    There is every reason to believe that Kenobi could feel this minor tremor in the force and was simply preparing to defend himself from whatever Anakin was planning.

    As an aside i have always felt that Lucas' attempt to blend Samurai Knights and Passive Monks was never successful. It would make a lot more sense if they carried around an energy shield instead of a sword.
  19. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Lucas should have never tried to make them a blend of badass warrior knights and passive monks with vows of poverty and chastity when he came up with the prequels. It didn't really work all that way in my opinion, but at order 66 made up for it so the Jedi can start off fresh again.
  20. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    Since these elements of Jedi knighthood were already in place in the OT (chastity and poverty being hinted at with Kenobi and Yoda's isolated lifestyles), I don't see what the problem is.
  21. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7

    They were hinted at in the OT, but was confirmed in the PT. I wouldn't expect the two mortal enemies of the Sith to be living high on the hog in the OT, so I had no issues with Yoda and Obi living off the beaten path and alone.

    The problem is corrected by Order 66. The Jedi(Obi and Yoda) got a chance to correct a few problems that lead to their demise and to reboot the order by starting Luke on his path.
  22. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    Anticipatory Self Defense is only valid when you know the other person is about to attack - that is not what Obi-Wan was doing; Obi-Wan was preparing to attack. Anakin had his back to Obi-Wan and his saber still clipped to his belt when Obi-Wan pulled out his lightsaber, lit it up and declared "I'll do what I must". That was a clear intent to attack and Anakin told him as much: "YOU WILL TRY". Try what? Try to kill me if you can, because that is exactly what Obi-Wan had just told him he was going to do. Anakin then made a counter attack.

    There is no evidence in the movie that Anakin was about to attack; He didn't stiffen any more or move his hand to his saber or anything. We can invent it to make Obi-Wan look better and say that he "sensed it" in the Force, but that is just finding a means to relieve Obi-Wan from having attacked first.

    Jedi may not normally use the Force for attack, but Obi-Wan used it both in attacking Maul and Anakin. In both cases I feel he was right to do so, but it was an attack in both instances in my opinion.
  23. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    But it was the Jedi who attacked the Separatists in AOTC. They could have made an attempt to save Obi-Wan without using an army of Jedi Knights. Because of their relationship with the Senate, they allowed themselves to be the aggressors in the upcoming Clone Wars.

    It was Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon who attacked first in TPM. Even Palpatine had instructed Maul to allow them to be the aggressors if he ever encountered them.
  24. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    The Jedi attacked the site where the Separatists were building an army to start a war with the Republic. A strike to prevent war is not aggressive in the way that you seem to be trying to depict it.

    Maul attacked Anakin without provocation on Tatooine; Q-G came to his defense. The Sith then showed up in the Palace to foil the Queen's attempt to retake her throne. Perhaps you could explain what is so "aggressive" about helping a democratically elected ruler regain rule of her people, from the violent warmongers and killers of innocents who took it from her?
  25. JEDI-RISING Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 15, 2005
    star 4
    Actually they didn't attack first. Maul and the Jedi ignited their lightsabers at virtually the same time,and moved towards each other.
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