A Logical Look at the Existence (or Non-Existence) of God.

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Lady Viskor, Nov 22, 2003.

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  1. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    TreeCave, I am not saying love must be or is more. All I am saying is that love might be more. That even if it is chemical reactions, it can be more than that. Same with free will, choice, intelligence, etc. They are not all mutually exclusive.

    And may someone else answer my questions, as why, to God, purpose, morals, etc, are not subjective?
  2. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    All I am saying is that love might be more. That even if it is chemical reactions, it can be more than that.

    I realize that what I'm asking, I'm either not putting it well, or it's such a strange concept that people have trouble understanding...I've asked this question several times and had similar misunderstanding, but let me try it on you one more time: what is this MORE that you speak of? Define it, please. It is such an accepted idea to speak of things having some mystical MORE to them, but even a self-proclaimed medium has a theory on how he's able to talk to the dead. What would this "more" that love might have be? Am I making anymore sense?
  3. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Sorry TreeCave, but although I understand what you are saying, it is hard to really answer. I use this argument more against people who are religious who say things like without a god, love and stuff is nothing more than predictable chemical reactions. We don't have free will then...etc.

    It may be nothing more than chemicals bouncing around in our heads. That is enough. Those are feelings, free will, emotions, desires, intelligence, etc. Maybe they can be theoretically predicted by different equations, but that does not make love any less of an emotion or any less special.

    To me, love or free will is like a forest and a chemical reaction is a tree. That analogy works pretty well I think, and I hope this makes sense. You can think of the trees being in any pattern in the forest, that each tree is different, that there are bushes (electrical things in the brain that influence love too), each forest is different? just as the human mind is with regards to love and all those other things.
  4. epic Ex Mod / RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 1999
    star 7
    Jediflyer: I am not sure what you mean there.

    well existentialism says there's no meaning to existence, which is made up of individuals, yet says for each individual to create their own meaning -- but if it states that there IS no meaning, how can any one individual's personal meaning -- actually mean anything? it can't, by virtue of its own teachings. so is the "personal meaning" just more mental gymnastics to help the individual lead a more pleasant life, having been made aware of the meaninglessness to existence?

    TreeCave: It's not. That's why I emphasized the importance in a COLLECTIVE effort to imbue existence with purpose.

    I think we can work that way, collectively, on an existential level.


    i'm still not sure whether working collectively, or within some kind of "human project" as Jabba said, can solve the problem... even working in a team environment, or doing some work towards some noble cause, aren't these just more ways to create meaning for the individual first and foremost? humans enjoy bonding, we enjoy discovering new things.

    also -- how can it be achieved practically, in todays age of commercialism, outside of the people involved in science, or say, politics or the arts?

    Enforcer: It may be nothing more than chemicals bouncing around in our heads. That is enough. Those are feelings, free will, emotions, desires, intelligence, etc. Maybe they can be theoretically predicted by different equations, but that does not make love any less of an emotion or any less special.

    i think this is better than stating there's "more" to love than just physical processes. by saying "more" it sounds as if there's something actually physically more to it than just the processes in the brain, but i see you mean "more" in just that the chemical processes, which, as stated as so, seem dull or non-special (especially, as you say, for theists), actually result in things which we can feel and enjoy.
  5. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5

    well existentialism says there's no meaning to existence, which is made up of individuals, yet says for each individual to create their own meaning -- but if it states that there IS no meaning, how can any one individual's personal meaning -- actually mean anything? it can't. so the "personal meaning" is just some kind of mind gymnastics to help you lead a (hopefully) more pleasant life.


    Okay, I see what you are saying now.

    I would say that creating our own meaning in life has the exact opposite result. It allows us to evaluate what we consider important and lead a life in that direction. We don't spend time worrying about the meaning of life or get stressed out when things aren't breaking our way, nor do we follow some "greater meaning" (basically a meaning to life assigned by somebody else).

    If there is no meaning in life, then why live at all? We each need to come up with our own purpose and desires if we are to stay alive.

    Not sure if I made that clear. Sometimes I wish we could be face to face having discussions of this kind as I lack the terminology to express what I am thinking here. Actually having a conversation might relieve that problem. But that's life!
  6. epic Ex Mod / RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 1999
    star 7
    i edited before i saw your reply, but what's there now is pretty much the same.

    I would say that creating our own meaning in life has the exact opposite result. It allows us to evaluate what we consider important and lead a life in that direction. We don't spend time worrying about the meaning of life or get stressed out when things aren't breaking our way, nor do we follow some "greater meaning" (basically a meaning to life assigned by somebody else).

    i agree with this. i think living your own life doing what you want is the way to go. but i wouldn't call it creating "meaning in life" (actually i have said this before, but i stopped doing it) -- because i think using "meaning" confuses the issue.

    If there is no meaning in life, then why live at all?

    because as you said before -- because we are free to.

    We each need to come up with our own purpose and desires if we are to stay alive.

    this is true, but i don't think we should necessarily call those purposes or desires or whatever the hell you wanters "meaning". i think they're just desires and actions and whatever we decide we want to do in life. i don't think any action can really "mean" anything, beyond whatever it performs.

    Not sure if I made that clear. Sometimes I wish we could be face to face having discussions of this kind as I lack the terminology to express what I am thinking here. Actually having a conversation might relieve that problem. But that's life!

    i think we're saying pretty much the same thing? bah, it's 2:30am and it's boiling hot here. meh.
  7. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    i'm still not sure whether working collectively, or within some kind of "human project" as Jabba said, can solve the problem... even working in a team environment, or doing some work towards some noble cause, aren't these just more ways to create meaning for the individual first and foremost?

    Oh, this totally MIGHT be the case. On the other hand, the human project might work. I just have nothing better to do than try, eh? :D

    Probably nothing would ever convince me we had created true meaning in our lives. I mean, I simply can't evaluate from this mortal perspective whether we have or not. So I wouldn't argue that we CAN do it, or later argue we HAD done it...I would just argue what else is there to do? It's my hobbie.
  8. GrandDesigner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2003
    star 2
    Hi again, just a few notes...

    Vagrant says:
    Let's try another way. Can a circle with four corners exist? I would say no, since it's ipso facto impossible to have a circle with four corners. But wait! What if the circle with four corners is not constrained by logic?


    As with 1+1=2, a circle is only imaginary. As is a straight line. When you see a circle, and magnify it to a certain degree, you'll find that the circle contains many corners. Magnify it more and you'll find those corners are curves. Magnify those curves more and you'll find corners. Did I mention I like fractals?

    Darth Zykalus wrote:
    Now if you have faith(or know) that God exist, can you show me God ? In my eyes, I cannot experiment that God exist or that He is affecting in anyway the universe, so I have no choice to deduce that He does not exist.

    Now if you want to debate what is existence exactly, that is another thing.


    Why would you ask to show you my faith when you've clearly stated you require physical evidence, as you know it, to know it's existence? I could tell you that every instant you're aware, that you are experimenting about G-D's existence but you may find that hard to believe. I could further go on to say that since you've deduced G-D doesn't exist, then it's completely ludicrous for you, let alone anyone else, to be discussing G-D. You can say existence is a separate topic but the 2 go hand in hand. Unless you're saying that your existence doesn't impact, in any way, the existence of G-D.

    "As for Darth Brooks, I could if I really wanted try to locate him, see him... "

    Uh-oh, am I about to be stalked? I am indeed the most dangerous game.;)


    Funny you should joke about that. The stalkers of G-D, however, usually say things like "oh, well...damn, if there is a G-D, I'm gonna screw him up good when I see Him!" Humans are a gas!

    There's abundant evidence to deduce God's existence is true. History, documented miracles, eye witnesses, etcetera.

    If you believe in me sight unseen, why not God?


    Yeah, what do you have against G-D? I suppose that'd be a whole other topic..or private message, eh? :)

    Please don't decide I don't exist. 'Here I am! Here I am!' Shades of Horton Hears a Who.

    Now I know how God feels.


    Yes, at times, I must admit too, I feel like that. As to you, or anyone, knowing how G-D feels...how could you not know?

    Vagrant may begin thinking he doesn't exist if he continues being ignored. "Yoo-hoo, Vagrant! I see you!" <Brooks waves>

    Now I really know how God feels, and so does Vagrant.


    Thats right! Now what are you gonna do about that, Vagrant? Hmmm? The funny thing about that is G-D's right before your eyes all the time, especially this instant, yet noone, as Darth Brooks eludes to, really points it out. Life goes on...

    Cheveyo wrote:
    However, in this thread, I am trying to point out only that there is as yet no way to logically discuss the existence or non-existence of God.


    But this doesn't mean it's not a desire to learn or discover ways to logically, or somehow, describe or relate the existence or non-existence of G-D. The mere fact there is desire to understand it more is what matters. After learning to study the confines of gravity, we took it's values and have used it to go to Mars. Finding universal ways to describe G-D may be a ways away, but so was understanding why an apple falls from a tree, at some point.

    Jediflyer wrote:
    They also all believed the world was flat up until 400 years ago.


    Exactly my point. It was flat to everyone since thats just how it is. It wasn't because they were any less smart or advanced compared to today. But even though it was considered flat, they still kept sailing. And it became a new awareness, in a sense. And I imagine it took a bit of time to convince everyone that the Earth is a globe, but it happened relatively quick. When people know G-D exists, it's very similar. Changing from questioning it to just plain knowing it.

    Vagrant wrote:
    Which in turn means that no
  9. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Seriously though, I do prefer to believe this is a pointless, pain-filled existence with no reward at the end.

    People, surprisingly, get what they prefer/want/deserve all rolled into one. If you prefer this existence to be pointless, pain-filled and with no reward, G-D will grant that. Not forever though. Just long enough to satisfy you.


    You took my quote out of context here, though. I said I prefer to believe it's as meaningless as it appears, because that creates the opportunity for us to imbue it with meaning. The meaning isn't already there to be found; the meaning is something we can create. I find that infinitely more exciting - and, ironically, meaningful. The act of creating v. the act of discovery.

    Not the act of wallowing in misery. :)
  10. GrandDesigner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2003
    star 2
    Ok, I may have taken that out of context. So thanks for the clarification.

    How I read the statement before made sense to me. But with further clarification, it makes sense that way, as well.

    Making sense of everything. That seems to be on my mind.

    Now, I know G-D is everything. That's how I define everything. So I know this thread is asking about something more specific. So determining what it's asking, to me, is essential. And to me, that would be the simple question of 'why?'.

    G-D
  11. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    GrandDesigner

    Thank you for the reply.

    "How is that diffrent for God from His point of view?"

    As I'll reiterate over and over...how could it be any different?


    My point is that it is no different. That in general, if I said that I don't believe in a god/God, but I will make a purpose to my life, there is no reason why that is a useful or important purpose. Yet what is God's purpose from God's point of view? Does He have one? Is it a good one? Why can He just make one up for Himself and it is a good one, but we can't?

    I feel you missed my point (or maybe you just didn't get a chance to finish), but I am not saying, "With God, I have a purpose, but how is that purpose any better than one I make for me." I am asking, "Why can God just make up a purpose for Himself, but I can't?"

    You also seem to say that my purpose is no different from Gods. What? I may feel that my purpose is to spread knowledge of Aerospace Engineering, but God may feel that my purpose is to go into business and I will find out later in my life.

    That is not what I meant though. What I meant is : I may feel my purpose again is to work on airplanes, and there is no overall reason why I want that other than I like things that fly. But God's purpose maybe (among other things) to create and watch over the earth. But what makes His reasons to Him any more fulfilling or real than my reasons for my purpose to me are?

  12. Vagrant Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 3
    Isn't it strange that one poster claims that God is not constrained by logic, and then dares me to disprove God's existence? It must have been a joke? Right?
  13. MasterZap Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2002
    star 4
    So all we have established is the fact, that there is no logical arguments that are inherently argumenting for the existance of God, gods, or theism.

    Only (shaky) arguments "against" various items of "science" that is fallaciously used as "arguments for God", when in fact they are not.

    I.e. "Science vs. God" is a false dichotomy. So what else is new :)

    /Z
  14. Qui-Rune Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    **BUMP**

    Hey! Look What I found!

    :)
  15. GrandDesigner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2003
    star 2
    << Hey! Look What I found! >>

    As Master Kenobi said, "Good job!"

    A long time ago, in a Galaxy far far away, Enforcer wrote
    'I am asking, "Why can God just make up a purpose for Himself, but I can't?"'


    Who told you you cant? If you dont want to make a "purpose" you certainly dont have to. But dont confuse that with saying you cant make your own "purpose". I put purpose in quotes because that could mean many things to different people. A side note...there's so much to define, adequately, that eternity is just enough time to do so. Thats a joke, sort of...

    " You also seem to say that my purpose is no different from Gods. What? I may feel that my purpose is to spread knowledge of Aerospace Engineering, but God may feel that my purpose is to go into business and I will find out later in my life."

    You may feel whatever you like. You can choose whatever field you want. You can do anything. And every instant, serving G-D's purpose. If I may say, it seems you think it's possible not to serve G-D's purpose.

    "I may feel my purpose again is to work on airplanes, and there is no overall reason why I want that other than I like things that fly."

    That's plenty of reason, enough, to work on airplanes!

    "But God's purpose maybe (among other things) to create and watch over the earth."

    Ok, thats quite possible....

    "But what makes His reasons to Him any more fulfilling or real than my reasons for my purpose to me are?"

    They're not any more fulfilling or real to Him than your purposes are to you.


    MasterZap wrote
    "" So all we have established is the fact, that there is no logical arguments that are inherently argumenting for the existance of God, gods, or theism.

    Only (shaky) arguments "against" various items of "science" that is fallaciously used as "arguments for God", when in fact they are not.

    I.e. "Science vs. God" is a false dichotomy. So what else is new""


    I'd say there's not much new about it, really. New ways to see things or ways to interpret things, at most, but usually that only opens up a 'new can of worms', so to speak. I find discussions about these things fun and enjoyable. I could literally spend an eternity contemplating it all. Somehow I dont think I'm alone in that sentiment.

    G-D
  16. mariel_rose Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2003
    I was looking for something else, but found this thread. It's quite interesting. I haven't read all 15 pages, only looked and skimmed page one.

    In my option God exists. Why? That's hard to say.
    I could say it's how I was rasied in my beliefs, I'm Catholic by the way if anyone is interested, so to speak.

    Anif I can say it at all. Each person in the uneriverse after a while finds their own path to find if God exists or not. At any age.

    So I don't mind different religons, but sometimes they are annoying because my prideful self gets to me. As I said before each to their own path in the existence of God. The bad part of different religons is when feelings get in the way. Tis annoying that is.

    It might seem that I'm getting off the toppic, the only thing I can say to that is, in a way I am, in a way not.

    What I mean is to theists, I think that's the word, is everyone in all different kinds of religons is seeking a/the higher power. They just don't understand each other.

    As for the Atheists, well that's their way of thinking, their own point of view, so to speak.

    But I do want to ask a question or two, they might have aready been questioned, but humor me, please.?

    For the Atheists, if God doesn't exist or any other higher power, how did the unriverse come into being? How are we here?

    In many different religons those two quetions are answered in different ways, but in a way, they stay the same. Someone or something made us.

    It can be invisable god or aliens or so forth, but something did make us, or whatnot.

    Second, if I can think of the question I wanted to ask, is this, it's for everyone.

    If a god doesn't exist how can you explain the unexplainable? Ex. people who died years ago, but still look alive and asleep?

    Also on the first or last page there was a question or something of there is nothing after death.

    The last question is this, if god doesn't exist and/or does exist and he/she/whatever promises life after death is, well what I'm trying to say, if it makes any sense to any of you after I say ask it, is this,

    Pascal's Wager 'Infinite reward is worth a finite wager.'

    Basically as most of you proabluy know is if you have genierene faith for one year or so, can't really remeber the whole thing, that is if I can remember it probally, you will hav grace, or whatnot.

    Basically what I'm trying to say is if you believe or not, you have nothing to lose. Nothing, for if their is nothing beyond this world, for the belivers, you would have lived a full life. Um, does any of this make any sense?

    questions, comments and so forth would be nice. Thanks.

    One last thing, I think that science, in way of speaking, proves that god or something does exist. Why?

    The human body and everything is so complex, how can it be made or created without someone who knows what he/she/whatever is doing? Ok, that makes sense if you read it a couple times. But it does make sense.

    Wind is invisable, but it can became visable. You can feel it, but you can't see it, but you know it is there, you don't know how or why, you just do. It's the same with God for me.

  17. MasterZap Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2002
    star 4
    Honestly, I think you should have read the 15 pages.

    All your questions are asked ten times, and answered twenty.

    /Z
  18. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Grand Designer

    Who told you you cant?

    Many Christians who say that God's purpose is the only real purpose in life and eternity.

    You may feel whatever you like. You can choose whatever field you want. You can do anything. And every instant, serving G-D's purpose. If I may say, it seems you think it's possible not to serve G-D's purpose.

    I feel that... Of course it is possible to not serve God's purpose. Imagine if say... even though the Pharos heart was hardened, he still somehow choose to let Moses? people go, or something along those lines.

    They're not any more fulfilling or real to Him than your purposes are to you.

    That is exactly my point, and that is why I feel that the IMHO general Christian view that God's purpose is the only real purpose is flawed.

    BTW, does G-D stand for GoD or Grand Designer?

    EDIT: Ohh Ohh, I missed mariel_rose's post....

    mariel_rose

    For the Atheists, if God doesn't exist or any other higher power, how did the unriverse come into being? How are we here?

    Oh, easy. Big bang virtual particles blowing up but still conserving energy and mass (so the total is 0)... a whole lot of quantum mechanics and other sciences but what I understand of it does make sense. Although I am not an astro physists, I do keep up with these scientific ideas. How are we here, we evolved and formed and became who we are.

    You should realize that why is a much more annoying question. Also see that 'why' implies intent and if asked in terms of 'why was the universe made' which obviously involves a god of some sort, you are already assuming there is a god by asking why.

    In many different religons those two quetions are answered in different ways, but in a way, they stay the same. Someone or something made us.

    I disagree and Christianity is a prime example. How did God make the earth? Did He make the core first then add the layers? Did He make a wedge and revolve it around? How did God move and modify the mater and energy of the universe to make things like us and the earth? Simply 'breathing it into existence' is not an explanation of how.

    It can be invisable god or aliens or so forth, but something did make us, or whatnot.

    How/why do you feel that? Can you please explain why that must be so? What reason says that we could not have just formed naturally?

    If a god doesn't exist how can you explain the unexplainable? Ex. people who died years ago, but still look alive and asleep?

    Um... the specific example I would say odd luck or embalming fluid... but let me digress...

    Did you know the phrase 'saved by the bell?' It came from the realization in the 1700's that when they buried people who 'died' a certain way, they sometimes came back to life. So they would tie a string to a finger of someone who died in that way and if it rang, they came back to life and should be dug up or else they would die again for good. It was considered a miracle obviously. Then later science explained that they entered such a deep coma or something that many doctors of the time were mistaken that they were dead.

    Moral of the story. Even if we can't explain it today, there is every chance we can explain it tomorrow. Post proof or decent evidence of things that we have not explained yet and explain why we cannot explain them.

    The last question is this, if god doesn't exist and/or does exist and he/she/whatever promises life after death is, well what I'm trying to say, if it makes any sense to any of you after I say ask it, is this,

    Pascal's Wager 'Infinite reward is worth a finite wager.'

    Basically as most of you proabluy know is if you have genierene faith for one year or so, can't really remeber the whole thing, that is if I can remember it probally, you will hav grace, or whatnot.

    Basically what I'm trying to say is if you believe or not, you have nothing to lose. Nothing, for if their is nothing beyond this world, for the belivers, you would have lived a full life. Um, does any of this
  19. mariel_rose Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Yea, I should of read the 15 pages, but I was tired.

    EnforcerSG, so you are saying that the Big Bang created or formed us. I can agree on that. It does make sense, but how did the particles get there?

    The seven days creation story in the bible is only so people could understand what God was doing and not let them be confused.

    He put what he did in simpler words so that the people could understand them. Many creation stories that I've read are very simple.

    About the people being dead and looking alive, I mean was when the people are dead a hundred years or so. I'm sorry if I didn't really make that clearer.

    On Pascal's Wager, I wasn't really thinking on that, so let's let it go.

    Now on the complex of creation or formation, whatever you want to call it, I want to tell a story. You might have heard of it or not.

    One day St. Thomas Aquious, was walking along the beach trying his hardest to figure out the mystery of the Blessed Trinity.

    Looking up the beach he saw a young boy taking a cup of seawater and putting it into a hole that he dug. The saint watched him for a while, wondering what he was doing. Finally he asked what was the boy doing. The boy replied that he was going to put the whole ocean into the hole that he had dug.

    The saint responded that was impossible, there was no way that the hole could hold the ocean, it was to big and the hole was to small.

    The boy replied it was the same with the trinity. It was too complex for him to see. Then the boy disappeared.

    Some things are to big to understand, we just don't have the room, I'm not saying we are dumb or anything, just that we can't figure it out at this time.

    But we can still try and find out about it all, and that's what we are doing.

    For the real reason I think God exists is that it's been prove to me, time and time again. In many different ways, for one, how am I here? Not by my own doing. It's hard to explain. I need to think about it some more.

    One last thing, would you say creation and formation could mean the same thing.

    Many of my questions might have been answered before, I'm just asking them in a different view.


  20. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    mariel_rose

    so you are saying that the Big Bang created or formed us. I can agree on that. It does make sense, but how did the particles get there?

    I have two responses and I like neither, and I just thought of a third one that I do like. One, it does make sense with quantum mechanics, but I do not fully understand it and cannot (not will not, cannot) fully explain it. Two, I can say something along the lines of it does not matter or you are no better since you don't explain where your God started. But the response I like the most is that we are trying to figure it out. We do not know, we admit that. However we are also trying to figure it out any way that we can, which is more than I can say about most religious people when it comes to trying to figure out God and various parts of the world in relation to their religion.

    The seven days creation story in the bible is only so people could understand what God was doing and not let them be confused.

    He put what he did in simpler words so that the people could understand them. Many creation stories that I've read are very simple.


    That doesn?t change the validity of what I said. The bible and no religion that I know of gives a clear or accurate account of HOW the world was made.

    About the people being dead and looking alive, I mean was when the people are dead a hundred years or so. I'm sorry if I didn't really make that clearer.

    Can you post a picture or link or a title of a book or article or something?

    On Pascal's Wager, I wasn't really thinking on that, so let's let it go.

    'Kay.

    Now on the complex of creation or formation, whatever you want to call it, I want to tell a story...

    I don't think I heard the story, but what is its point? How does it relate to what we said?

    Some things are to big to understand, we just don't have the room, I'm not saying we are dumb or anything, just that we can't figure it out at this time.

    I realize that this (and the rest of your post) are the point that I asked above. But there are some problems with that attitude. By that logic, we eventually can figure everything out (even if not right now). Would that not make us too godlike? If not, then what you said is wrong.

    Also on a somewhat side note, can we truly know and accept something without understanding it? If we ever say 'it just is' isn't that blind faith?

    But we can still try and find out about it all, and that's what we are doing.

    Can you give a specific instance in history where the Catholic Church seriously tried to understand the world without something like the idea of evolution or something there to motivate them?

    For the real reason I think God exists is that it's been prove to me, time and time again. In many different ways, for one, how am I here? Not by my own doing. It's hard to explain. I need to think about it some more.

    It would interest me greatly (and if you ask I will not debate about it) to know what the reasons are. What has convinced and why have those things convinced you? I understand that you need to think about it.

    One last thing, would you say creation and formation could mean the same thing.

    No, it is the same thing is why/how. Creation implies that something intentionally created something (like I create a computer program) whereas formed implies it just happened naturally.
  21. mariel_rose Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2003
    EnforcerSG-However we are also trying to figure it out any way that we can, which is more than I can say about most religious people when it comes to trying to figure out God and various parts of the world in relation to their religion. What do you mean by that?

    On the creation story and others like that, it's true that it doesn't really tell how, it's just a way for people to understand. In a way, nobody knows how we came to be. Not even fictional characters, in Star Wars they say the Force, but what or is the Force? They have blind faith on that too. In questioning the exists of a higher being, aren't we question everything?

    On the sleeping/dead people, looking it up.
    Got it, it's called the Preservation of the body. Many Saints have been in this state. St. John Basco for one, I believe. It's quite fascinating.

    Here is one web page that doesn?t prove incorruption. I just thought it was kinda funny. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/vennari2.html

    Found the perfect website, well, book. Here it is. Took a while though.

    http://www.christianity-books.com/The_Incorruptibles_A_Study_of_the_Incorruption_of_the_Bodies_of_Various_Catholic_Saints_and_Beati_0895550660.html

    I'm thinking of reading it myself.

    On Can you give a specific instance in history where the Catholic Church seriously tried to understand the world without something like the idea of evolution or something there to motivate them? I can only give these.

    Aquinas' Proofs for God's Existence-many people have wrote and talked about these. I bet you looked at them yourself, but I'm not sure about that.

    http://www.self-realization.com/prooffor.htm

    And thanks for the clearing up on the creation/formation whatnot.

    On the personal proofs, I'll get to them later.
    Questions comments, etc.

    One last question through. That is on, but off the topic, for it includes God. What is the difference between Catholic Christians and Christians?

    I ask this because when someone asks me what religion are you I say Catholic and he or she knows what I'm talking about. But when I ask others, they sometimes reply Christians. I ask what kind?

    I ask that because, even if we are all Christians, and worship the same God, I'm curious on what church that they go to, for if everyone worships the same God, wouldn?t he want everyone in the same church? For none will fight against each other? I'm sure he wouldn't want that. It would make him sad. Well, that's my thoughts on it.
  22. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
  23. GrandDesigner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2003
    star 2
    Who told you you cant?

    Many Christians who say that God's purpose is the only real purpose in life and eternity.


    Christians? Muslims? Jews? Jedi? Here's where that old scenario I spoke of before is quite amusing. Humans will listen to Christians, or people of some religion, as to what G-D says they're not allowed or allowed to do....but if G-D were to say different than a Christian, you'd still listen to the Christian, right? The scenario, which I gave before, was G-D to be standing outside of a Church...and he says hello to some people coming out of the Church. When they ask who he is, he says "I'm G-D" and instead of saying hello back, those people proceed to explain to G-D what is supposed to happen, some signs of the apocolypse or whatever trype, and tell G-D why he can surely not be G-D. Have no fear, though, G-D would laugh at that, not be angered. Others would probably shoot him or nail him to the cross. Again, funny. Anyways, your purpose, whatever you believe it is, can in no way be separate from G-D's. If someone were to shoot G-D for saying he's G-D, it's all part of the...design.

    " I feel that... Of course it is possible to not serve God's purpose."

    Nope, it's not, so there...or neener neener :p

    "Imagine if say... even though the Pharos heart was hardened, he still somehow choose to let Moses? people go, or something along those lines."

    I'd say you're talking about the Pharoah's freedom to choose to let Moses' people go. Let me remind you that the Pharoah has just as much freedom as you do. Yet he served G-D's purpose too. But may I say, it's better served with that freedom of choice in mind. Can you imagine a G-D who'd actually want to force beings to serve and be a part of G-D? Like you, G-D would be happy to have beings choose their allegiance than to force them into anything.

    " BTW, does G-D stand for GoD or Grand Designer?"

    Yes.

    Grand ol' Designer
  24. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Christians? Muslims? Jews? Jedi? Here's where that old scenario I spoke of before is quite amusing. Humans will listen to Christians, or people of some religion, as to what G-D says they're not allowed or allowed to do....but if G-D were to say different than a Christian, you'd still listen to the Christian, right? The scenario, which I gave before, was G-D to be standing outside of a Church...and he says hello to some people coming out of the Church. When they ask who he is, he says "I'm G-D" and instead of saying hello back, those people proceed to explain to G-D what is supposed to happen, some signs of the apocolypse or whatever trype, and tell G-D why he can surely not be G-D. Have no fear, though, G-D would laugh at that, not be angered. Others would probably shoot him or nail him to the cross. Again, funny. Anyways, your purpose, whatever you believe it is, can in no way be separate from G-D's. If someone were to shoot G-D for saying he's G-D, it's all part of the...design.

    Well of course. To us, God was revealed through the Bible, and through the reading of that, He has revealed Himself directly to our hearts. So anyone claiming to be God must fit the pattern set out in the Bible to be God.

    If the Christian God is NOT real, then anyone claiming to be God, as far as I'm concerned, is merely an ego-centric monkey with dilusions of grandeur.

    That said, He is real. So it still stands (with variation): anyone claiming to be God is merely an ego-centric, devinely-created human with dilusions of grandeur.
  25. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    The universe is far too complex for it to just have happened.

    The more science studies our world and the universe we come understand it just couldn't happen.

    Just like a new house doesn't get built without a builder. And it isn't even alive. The organized matter that exists in this universe and is alive didn't just happen.

    "One day a normal cell wakes up in the morning millions of years ago and decides it's to become a blue whale eye cell". Whereas the day before it was some type of fish cell. Yeah right 8-}
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