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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

A Mary Sue warning

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by KadeBendu, Jun 6, 2008.

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  1. VaderLVR64

    VaderLVR64 Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2004
    Good idea. Consider yourself dared! :p

    Maybe I love Vader so much because beneath the menacing armor and a choke hold every now and then, you sense there's something more lurking behind the facade. And maybe he does eat puppies for breakfast, but he probably has a kitten that curls up next to him when he sleeps. [face_mischief]
     
  2. TKeira_Lea

    TKeira_Lea Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2002
    [face_laugh]

    Definitely use the Mary Sue litmus test as a loose guide but don't take it too much to heart. The first time I saw the litmus test as a fanfic writer I went "ARGHHHHHHH!" I read much more on the subject and found that people truly misunderstand the term. Many people don't even know where the term originated.

    There are characters that meet almost all the qualities attributed to a Mary Sue and simply aren't one. Flaws in the character's nature will keep them real. The biggest thing that makes a Mary Sue is that the writer wants everyone to love the character, to the point the character becomes annoying to the readers.

    If you're worried get an experienced person, who you trust, to provide feedback. Somewhere in the depths of this forum there are a couple Mary Sue threads with links to articles on the subject. I'll try to find them.
     
  3. SilSolo

    SilSolo Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2004
    lol puppies for breakfast.. yum, yum, puppy bone crunch :D

    I just get annoyed when I see an overt Mary Sue taking over a story and making all of the canon people love him/her. Also hate self-insertions, too.
     
  4. MsLanna

    MsLanna Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2005
    Guilty as charged, SilSolo, but it is such fun.[face_blush]

    In a way, all my girls are a way to insert myself into SW and have all the fun. :D But then, reading an SW-novel is also a way of inserting myself into SW, so i might be using that term differently.
    Except in that self-insert story. Amazingly enough, it is my most popular around here.:eek:
    I am still working on marrying myself off to a canon character, though. :p
     
  5. SilSolo

    SilSolo Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2004
    same here lol

    My self-insert MS-containing story that I wrote when I was 14 seems to be the most popular of my fics save for an AU that I did of a TV show where a key character who died in canon did not die, but awww, shucks, I loved going around the boards, reading massively, and hanging out, which is what probably got me the reviews for that first fic that I still hate with my guts.

    Correction to previous post: only hate self-insertions when they're blatantly obvious Mary Sues.
     
  6. Darth_Manion

    Darth_Manion Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2007
    I feel uncomfortable about these Mary Sue threads, because I don't actually think I've ever created one. For all the Mary Sue litmus tests I've put my characters through, they all came up negative. And that's mainly because most of my OCs are losers.

    I've only done one story that could be considered self-insertion, and throughout the story, I fulfilled the role of Cowardly Running Away Man, as I felt I would have done in real life. After all, I'm no hero, and the end result was actually quite humorous.

    The rest of my OCs have consistently been cowards, emotionally scarred, or borderline psychotic. In other words, the characters I seem to be consistently cranking out far from perfect. I suppose just like putting these misfits through the ringer for some reason.

    Unfortunately (for them, anyway), my OCs rarely ever succeed in their mission/quest/whatever because they are quickly squashed by whatever absurdly powerful villain I've cooked up for them. So any protagonist is quickly doomed to failure. Which is nice in cases where I want to shake things up a bit, you know, jar the reader, but occasionally we'd all like to see the hero win in the end. Am I right?

    So is there a term for this - like an 'Anti-Sue' for when it's the villain that's too perfect? Or am I the only one with this problem?
     
  7. JediXManSerenaKenobi

    JediXManSerenaKenobi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 2007
    I'm ashamed to say I've written a few Mary-Sues a few years ago when I first started writing fanfiction. I didn't know what a Mary Sue was, but after I did some research, I realized that my main OC was a Mary Sue, and I was like "Dang!" I've tried not to write any more Mary-Sues, but rather stick to the real characters instead. That's worked out better, as you really can't make a character that's already there, like Padme, a Mary Sue (or Gary Stu).

    Still, Mary Sues, no matter how much hated, I still like. We all wish we could be in Star Wars. Mary Sues are a way to do that. I, for one, do NOT hate Mary Sues - at least if they're not TOO perfect.

    - Serena
     
  8. Darth_Leia_6669

    Darth_Leia_6669 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Quite the interesting thread! Just some thoughts...

    When I started my first story here, I had no idea what a Mary Sue was. After some time, I came across the termand realized that my OC was lining up a little too well with that notion. That, along with a few other problems with the story and DRL, caused me to quit that story.

    Five years later I finally started rewriting it, and I've been making sure that I didn't MS this time. But as someone pointed out above (sorry, can't remember who [face_blush] ) Maybe I've spent a little too much time obsessing on it. I feel that the character is complete in her own right, but having seen so much MS bashing, I became almost paranoid about it. Well, thanks to some of the advice here, I might be a little easier on myself in the future.

    As for self insertion, OK, I'm a bit guilty here. But while the character is loosly based on myself, I have imported my nerosis along with the rest, which should make things interesting. I can just hope at least!

    I do agree on using what you know about others to help round out OC's. It is something many pros have done, so why not! When writing, you need to know what you're talking about or it won't work.

    Ok, I've rambled too much already, so I'll stop.

    --later--
    6669 [face_devil]
     
  9. Seremela

    Seremela Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Oh, but you can, you can! I come from another fandom where especially two of the canon characters have been 'mary sue'd' a lot in stories - with a horrible childhood that's unbelievable, saving the day all on his own against impossible odds and of course half dead while it happened, completely selfless and absolutely flawless (even flaws from the show itself are worked over so they are all a matter of being misunderstood) and everybody loving him to pieces and laying fawning at his feet. Except of course when they all misunderstand him completely and treat him horrible, only to keel over in remorse and love at the end.

    There's even a term for it, 'Canon Sue' and I have to say I hate those much more than Mary Sue's. Because they wreck the original character and don't leave anything of him. (Yes, I'm saying 'him'- that fandom is for a show with the main characters all male I'm afraid :D )

    I don't think that fandom is the only one in which Canon Sues happen.



     
  10. JediXManSerenaKenobi

    JediXManSerenaKenobi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Hm, interesting! I've never witnessed a canon-sue before, but now you've piqued my interest.

    I guess you CAN really mess up the characters.

    - Serena
     
  11. Seremela

    Seremela Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 2008
    :( Unfortunately I've witnessed quite a few too many.... and it's always a sad thing. If I encounter one I stop reading immediately.

    Maybe some fandoms are more prone to them than others though. I haven't seen one in this fandom yet, fortunately.


     
  12. Earthknight

    Earthknight Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2002
    You want to avoid Mary Sues and Gary Stus? It's very simple: make your OCs complete utter failures in life :) .
     
  13. ardavenport

    ardavenport Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Mary Sues are in all fandoms. I haven't seen many in SW fandom -- lately. There were PLENTY of them in the print zines in the 80's. And there's loads of stuff on the internet that I haven't looked at.

    There are a few easy things to look for, in either reading or writing, that mark Mary Sues.

    - The narrative stops for that character. Either to describe him/her, or dwell on what they are thinking, etc.

    - The plot stops and revolves around that character.

    - The other characters in the story are subservient to that character.

    Pretty much, if any character sucks all the oxygen out of the story, the plot, the scenes, and/or the other characters, you know you've got a Mary Sue.

    You CAN write an OC, put him or her into the center of the story, make them the center of attention, and still NOT have a Mary Sue BECAUSE the other characters have their own issues/motives/personalities/back stories that are independent of the OC. And more importantly, if the plot moves on, as if it were its own entity, independent of OC, and the author, then you don't have to worry about having a Mary Sue.


     
  14. Persephone_Kore

    Persephone_Kore Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2006
    You really can have all the same pitfalls and characterization mistakes as with an OC, plus the problem of messing up an established characterization. I seem to run across Obi-Sues with surprising frequency.
     
  15. Seremela

    Seremela Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 2008
    I have to admit there are a lot of stories that I don't even start to read, because of what the summary tells me it's about. And yes, those are a lot of time with Obi-Wan in a certain.... 'role'. They are the kind of stories that scream 'this might be a Canon Sue' at me - and maybe they don't have an Obi-Sue or whatever kind of Sue at all, but I just don't feel like trying. Not yet anyway; with so many stories I still haven't read I'm not desperate for reading stuff at this point and indulge in being choosy :D

    I find Canon Sues truly horrible, so that's why I try to avoid them at all cost.

    That selective reading might be why I haven't encountered them much in the stories I have read in this fandom (and wow, I've come across so many GREAT stories in it, it's like sitting in the midst of a treasure trove). It's only happened a few times and as I say, I stop the moment I encounter one. Come to think of it, those few were Obi-Sues [face_thinking]

    It seems a lot of fandoms have one (or two) characters that get this role in particular, so now I'm wondering if for the PT stories that would be Obi-Wan :(

    Another reason I don't like Canon Sue stories is, that the other canon character(s) often get to be horrible in a way I don't recognize for them. To all the more make the Canon Sue suffer. So quite often stories like this sort of twist more than one canon character. On the other hand that's a fine line, because a darker characterization than is canon can also lead to very interesting stories.




     
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