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RPR Archive A New Old Star Wars Galaxy

Discussion in 'Role Playing Resource Archive' started by Hammur-, Apr 27, 2008.

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  1. Hammur- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2007
    star 1
    "Many people feel that in the contemplation of nature and in communication with other living things, they become aware of some kind of force, or something, behind this apparent mask which we see in front of us, and they call it God." - Roman Kroitor

    When looking across the various threads in the SWRPF, one obvious similarity unites them all: all occur within the Star Wars galaxy, as defined in two trilogies and innumerable other works of fiction. This galaxy remains fairly constant across the RPF; nearly every thread presents the same vision of the galaxy, even if they're set at different time periods. Though we've all come to accept the constancy of the GFFA, it occurs to me that there's a great deal of deviation - not just in the EU, but between the films themselves. In fact, I would argue that the GFFA we all know and love is radically and fundamentally different from the world George Lucas created in 1977.

    Every successive installment has been forced to up the ante, to surpass its predecessor if not in storytelling than at least in sheer spectacle. For example, let's examine how the Force has evolved. In 1977, the Force was primarily a matter of perception. It allows its user to see without eyes, to hear the unspoken, and to put words in the mouths of others. It is an empathic bond between beings. The Force unites all life, and it grants its user the ability to take life. ESB added telekinesis to the mix; from Luke pulling his lightsaber a few feet to Yoda lifting the X-Wing from the swamps of Dagobah to Darth Vader using his surroundings as weaponry. In ROTJ, we see Palpatine channelling the Force into raw energy. By the time we get to the prequels, limitations have been thrown out the window. The Force enables Jedi to employ acrobatics as a combat technique, hurl and deflect Dragonball Z-esque balls of raw energy, and destroy everything around them in their battles. By the time the story has run its course, the Force hardly resembles the Force from 1977. What once was an spiritual empathic bond has evolved into a psychokinetic energy.

    The storyline has also been dramatically affected. The world of the EU is predominately an orderly one: it generally heroicizes either the Old Republic or the New Republic, both centralized governments. The world may not be stable, but in general, the good guys are winning the battle against chaos. The original universe seemed nearly the opposite: the good guys are forces of chaos, facing an Empire that struggles to hold the world together. The galaxy isn't stable, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. This is a universe filled with smugglers and dreamers and ronin and rebels and lost droids. The so-called 'fastest ship in the galaxy' is a hunk of junk, but Han Solo's mostly full of it (in the EU, of course, the Millenium Falcon actually is the fastest ship in the galaxy. :rolleyes:) And the Empire's vehicle of order - their horrible sphere of destruction - fails completely due to a seemingly random anomaly.

    The EU also supposes that in the future, the world will return to the Jedi. The impression I get from ANH is entirely different. In this world, the blaster (which entered common use during the Clone Wars) has outmoded the Jedi. In ANH, Luke's lightsaber is a relic, one which can potentially stand toe-to-toe with a blaster given extensive training. Hell, the lightsaber is far and above the superior weapon given training. However, the blaster is cheap and easy to use, which means that even if one Jedi can take down one hundred troopers, it doesn't matter, because for every Jedi, the Empire can effectively deploy ten thousand troopers. In this light, the Jedi aren't scheduled to make a comeback - ever. The Clone Wars were the end. Vader and Obi-Wan are anomalies; the only two traditional Jedi left in the galaxy. That doesn't mean the Force is gone forever; merely, I imagine it will manifest itself in new and wonderful ways.

    I'm setting up a game idea here, my friends. Let's negate/>
  2. Imperial_Hammer Manager Emeritus: RPFs

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2004
    star 5
    It seems like a fine idea indeed...

    I've always been interested in the Empire without Vader and Palpatine...

    To me, the relationships (real or contrived) between Tarkin, Piett, Veers, Motti, and Tagge (plus or minus Ozzel, Needa, Jerjerrod, Pellaeon, Isard, Daala, Thrawn etc.) are absolutely fertile grounds of creative writing. In fact, I spent my first summer on the RPFs RPing those five (plus Isard at the end) in GAW...

    Was one of the most enjoyable set of characters I've written for (next to perhaps TBT)

    I think having the Imperial Officers as a set of "Good Ol' Boys," probably close knit (the Academy) working for the common (Imperial ;) ) good, is an amazing alternate universe SW galaxy idea. :)

    -I_H
  3. Ktala Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2002
    star 6
    :D

    LOVIN' the concept!!!!

    YES!
  4. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Very interesting. One thing: in this mix, with that slight change, you still have the Emperor floating around, because he does rate a mention by Moff Tarkin:

    "The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the Council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."

    Now, the interesting thing about it is that it looks like the concept of the Emperor changed over the course of the three films. Taking ourselves outside the text purely for context's sake, Alan Dean Foster's ghostwritten novelisation of ANH suggests that the Emperor was in fact largely controlled by his advisors and toadies.

    As an aside, the rest of the OT changes his role significantly. I don't take the "George Lucas is a master pokerfaced storyteller who likes to keep significant elements of his master story in shadow until later" view; as an example, the revelation of Luke and Leia as brother and sister causes several scenes in ESB and ANH to play out significantly creepier in the light of that fact. More likely George was just looking for something as showstoppin' as the (mindblowing for the time) revelation that Vader was Luke's father.

    So. If you confine yourself solely to the text of ANH, with no Yoda, and no suggestion the Emperor is a Force user and that Vader was a free agent with no "Chick ain't gonna die on me" impetus to turn to the Dark Side, what are you left with?

    * The Empire as templated from the Roman Empire from around the Caesar Augustus period -- though GrandAdmiralJello could, I suspect, go for ages on the subject. You've got an Emperor, regional governors, troop organisations (decribed by Palps himself as legions in ROTJ), and an Imperial Senate. Not to mention the aghast attitude of unnamed Imperial officials as to how the Emperor will "maintain control without the bureaucracy". But you have to cope with the Emperor, because sadly he's in there.

    * As for approaching the Jedi Order, a good concept came up on a board where some folks were discussing creating a "virtual PT" to more accurately fit the vision from the OT. That concept suggested the idea that the Jedi Order was a really secret order, sort of on the same page as the Illuminati, or the Priory of Zion -- a truly secret organisation which preferred to safeguard peace and justice in the Old Republic by largely pulling strings behind the scenes. In this scenario the lightsaber is indeed the symbol of the Jedi, but only seen in rare circumstances. As to how the Jedi would continue in this post-ANH universe: "Now the Jedi are all but extinct", as we've seen with the EU, has so big a loophole in it you can drive an AT-AT through it. It's pretty easy to have the odd Jedi hiding out here or there. Maybe even looking to re-establish the order in a much different way.
  5. Winged_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    This is a fascinating idea, and well thought out. Nice work.

    Now I wasn't around in 1977, but I always find it interesting to hear the perspective of people who were- and particularly how assumptions they made based on ANH were contradicted by the later films.

    For example, IIRC, nothing in ANH suggests that only certain individuals were capable of using the Force. I've heard several fans say how they initially thought the Force was something anyone could use and tap into, with the correct training. Even Han could have been taught to use it if he had wanted to. It was a religious and spiritual choice- you became a Jedi on the power of your faith, not the power of your blood.

    So that's another element to consider in your brave new old world. I've got to go now but I'm certainly going to think more about this intriguing concept.

    [face_laugh]
  6. SephyCloneNo15 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2005
    star 5
    Love the concept. Got a meet and greet with a candidate to be one of our new Animation teachers, but I'll right something more interesting later.
  7. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    It's funny, as I was just discussing a concept such as this the other day. Not for a RPG, but simply where the rest of the EU would've gone without the PT. I definitely think it's an idea worth exploring, and would be most interested in seeing what path it would take.
  8. NickLitYouAFlame Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2007
    star 5
    So, lwhen can we schedule a time and place for you to have my baby? I mean that in a very manly way, obviously. But, seriously, I love this idea. And, I would love to contribute to turning it from concept to reality. As much as internet is reality, that is.
  9. Hammurabi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2007
    star 4
    All right, so the initial reviews pretty good. Remember everybody, as this project gets closer to completion (and due to my schedule, we probably won't be launching for at least two weeks, though I think I might like to spend a little time working out the details before I create something), I'm probably going to be looking for a co-GM.

    Before I go on, I'd like to credit Saint and Winged for providing some great insight and handy advice. Pretty much every statement you guys made is true: Lucas editing the galaxy as he went, the Force being a universal (rather than limited ability), Vader being free agent with no "Chick ain't gonna die on me" impetus to turn to the Dark Side... Nearly too many good ideas and astute observations for me to individually affirm them all. But I can respond to some of the issues, such as The Emperor. You're right, he will be around (I hadn't thought of that - I intend to rewatch ANH this weekend), but he'll probably be fairly distant, just as he is in ANH. A sort of unseen presence whose influence is diminished by distance from the galaxy's interior. However, this one depends on the focus, which I'll discuss momentarily.

    Another key issue I'm seeing is that of Force-users. As you may have realized from my opening quotation (which, according to Lucas, served as an inspiration for the Force), I feel like the Force should remain a key factor in our New Old Galaxy (the NOG, if you will), if in a different form than we're used to seeing it in. Saint's Jedi secret society idea is interesting, but I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it. I feel like the Jedi Order is more or less gone forever, but I can imagine the stray Jedi left in the galaxy (and I imagine there are several still in hiding) might seek to reform the Jedi Order. However, if they based it off the old one, I imagine they would fail. So we've got two possible scenarios: Jedi try to reform the old-school order and fail, or Jedi create a redesigned order, which succeeds - to a point. I can definitely see a small, secretive organization of Jedi forming up, with hopes of one day recreating the Jedi Order in full.

    I also imagine we'll see people tapping into the Force in new ways. The problem with old-school Jedi is they required years (decades, even) of training, but couldn't really hold up against blaster-wielding armies. So lightsabers are gone, but is it far-fetched to imagine elite, highly-disciplined combat units learning to wield the Force? It has useful applications, even for blaster combat. Enhanced senses, enhanced aim, limited precognitive ability, empathic ability... I also can imagine the Force used for espionage. In ANH, Obi-Wan uses the Force to alter others' perceptions, persuade others, and sneak around an Imperial battle station. This idea sort of lends itself to Saint's secret society type idea, in that of the surviving Jedi, most would be good at hiding out and evading the Empire.

    Moving on though, we've yet to discuss this thing's focus. Hammer made me realize just how broad my scope still was by proposing an area I hadn't fully considered yet: the world of the Imperial Officers. It's a realm that sounds intriguing enough for me to want to include it, but I don't know how easy or hard it would be to wedge that together with the cast of rebels and outlaws I've been imagining. So far, I've been thinking on a universal scale; before I start designing an RP out of it, I've got to figure out what we'll be focusing on, or at least the range covered by our focus. Right now, I'm faced with the urge to explore as much of this universe as possible, opposite the realistic impulse to keep this small enough to be manageable. Right now, I'm not even sure where to start - I essentially see two ways to limit the scope: either by setting or by narrative.

    So far I've been thinking more about limiting by setting - the idea of doing it by narrative just occurred to me, so I've yet to think of much. But if we did it by setting, I'm thinking (at least at the start) to limiting it to a single
  10. NickLitYouAFlame Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2007
    star 5
    First of all, I would like to say that I am quite interested in groups of Force-trained blaster-wielding troops. As was in the times of the old Jedi Order, the lightsaber clearly identifies a man on the field of battle as a Force-user, because rarely do you see a non-Force character wielding a lightsaber.

    By removing the lightsaber, the Jedi could remain inconspicuous from enemy targeting. One powerful in the Force would be able to wreak much havoc, before being found for who he was. If you throw in the opposing side, with Force-users of its own, the feel of Star Wars battles is warped entirely.


    On to your questions:

    How broad should the scope be?

    It?s commonly agreed upon that the larger the scope, the harder it is to control. But, while easier to control, a smaller game isn?t doesn?t seem as appealing as a community based RPG. This question is always a predicament I find myself in, which is to say: How big can I make the game, without losing a handle on it?

    I can?t actually answer this question, because I am still fighting for the answer myself. But, I think that if you can find it, the middle of the spectrum would be a good place for a game of this significance.


    The second question is sort-of answered in my first. So, on to the final question:

    How does the episodic idea sound?

    I feel this relates back, to the focus, a bit. The episode-type style, if properly exercised, might help you keep track of the game better. As well, it would make the game seem more like the movies, which is a wonderful prospect for me.

    As you can see, most of what I said revolves around ifs and maybes. It?s essentially my opinion, which while is what you asked for, means little.
  11. SephyCloneNo15 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2005
    star 5
    I rather like the crew of a pirate/Rebel ship idea. Could work, would be a good way to get a wide variety of characters together in the same game. It works well for an episodic structure too, jumping from adventure to adventure. The trouble, though, with limiting the scope by setting is that we may not get a big enough opportunity to see what's different between this and the SW we know and love and any other generic Science Fiction.
  12. spacelady Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2003
    star 5
    Edit: *doh!* This is Elu in Spacey's account. This is the second time in two days I've forgotten she was signed in and not me! Gah! [face_plain] :p

    I quite like this idea and I do like the idea of 'episodes,' though it would have to be pulled off just right.

    I must also say I like the idea of Force-Based troops, because of two reasons we have to admit: 1) It's a neat and cool idea. 2) Emperor Palpatine is still in power and he loves his Force-User cronies. Look at the multiple groups under his command.

    The Dark Inquisitors(something like that I believe), the Emperor's Hand, his Sith Apprentice, Prophets of the Dark Side (I believe they were under him for a time), The whole Tion Hegemony were quietly manipulated by him. Plus others.

    I wouldn't mind them being taken out for a game like this, in fact, they should be. However, the Emperor without his Dark Side cronies is not the Emperor at all. So that's points to the Forcetroopers. Snowtroopers, Sandtroopers, Spacetroopers, Stormtroopers, why not Forcetroopers?

    In any case, Palps will want something else with Force Affiliation on his side and I believe that issue must be faced.
  13. Penguinator RPF Modinator and Batmanager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 6
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Jedi were knights in ANH. The PT and EU have kind of forced upon us this monastic image of the Jedi. I honestly can't remember an instance in the OT where they were called an "order".

    True, the Templars and Hospitallers were monastic knights, but that concept was so radical when it originated that it shook European nations to their very core. I agree that the Force shouldn't be genetic, and that it's more for those who seek it out. I'd also like to see an end to the whole "Master and Padawan" thing. It's a dumb way of saying mentor and learner.

    In fact, now that I think about it, the Jedi Order of the PT isn't as noble as that in the OT. They were always pulling out the lightsabers, mind-tricking people, and being uptight and snobbish while claiming to be non-partisan peacekeepers. I think that we could toss out that rubbish and keep them as a semi-spiritual order, semi-secret, devoted to defending the people.

    Honestly, it's far more effective if your negotiator doesn't look like a mighty Jedi Knight and doesn't go around advertised as such. Get rid of the robes, too. If all Jedi wore such robes, why would Ben Kenobi keep 'em when he was trying to stay hidden?
  14. Hammurabi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2007
    star 4
    An astute observation, Peng. You're right, we have all been assuming a sort of 'Jedi Order' which, on second thought, shouldn't really exist in the universe we're trying to create. I really like your description of the Jedi as "a semi-spiritual order, semi-secret, devoted to defending the people". Because I just looked into a few things (I wouldn't go so far as to call it research), and I'm starting to develop a concept of what our New Old Jedi will look like.

    First of all, I think it's fair to say our Jedi won't be based off the Templars or Hospitaliers. However, as you implied, there is a heavy spirituality to the Jedi. Yeah, plenty of the monk-like characteristics are taken from the PT and the EU, but there's also a few which take their cue from Ben Kenobi's behavior in ANH. Of course, old Ben doesn't seem to resemble any Western monastic knight; rather, he seems to take his cue from the yamabushi, a group of mostly solitary ascetics famous for "supernatural powers and mighty warriors". They were practitioners of Shugendo, an animistic religion whose name translates to "the path of training and testing". During the Meiji restoration, superstition forced the yamabushi into hiding.

    Mostly this is all just delving into the mythologies from which Lucas created Star Wars. At a certain point, one starts to wonder if the parallels are imaginary or real. Could Yoda be a representation of Sojobo? Is Ben Kenobi partially inspired by Benkei? There are parallels (such as the name), but it doesn't all fit together perfectly. Then again, how about this picture of a yamabushi, naginata gleaming like a lightsaber:
    [image=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Yamabushi2.jpg]

    I'd like to tackle the various mythologies Lucas draws from. I've already begun exploring the eastern influence, but that is only a small part of Star Wars. There are also some very strong Western elements - Han Solo, everyone's favorite space cowboy, stands out in my mind. Of course, Lucas wasn't the first to mix East and West; Kurosawa was famous for it, and Lucas clearly draws a lot from Kurosawa. Then there's also the Imperial side of things, which we haven't even begun to explore in detail. There's a lot of galaxy in A New Hope alone, and I hope to get at that with this project.

    Anyways, expect another post later today or tomorrow regarding how I intend to organize this thing. I've got some new ideas, which could work out very well.
  15. SephyCloneNo15 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2005
    star 5
    I don't know how exactly it would work, but could we try to incorporate a little bit more of the Imperial Roman side of the Empire? Everyone sees the Nazi parallels and, frankly, extrapolating only what we see in ANH, we'd get probably just an even more Nazi-esque Empire, but I think it might be fun to try and push the Roman side of things, if only for a little change of pace.
  16. Imperial_Hammer Manager Emeritus: RPFs

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2004
    star 5
    You know, I've never seen Nazi parallels in ANH. I've always thought of the Empire equating to Imperial British (a la Revolutionary War).

    Steampunk = Make the Empire Prussia. :)

    -I_H

  17. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    It's the length of the coats that hides it. If Admiral Piett had an overcoat that was about a foot longer (see "Starship Troopers" for comparisons) it'd be more obvious. As it is, the Nazis did have sturmtruppen, and the solid grey uniforms throughout do heavily echo the Nazi military era and uniforms.

    Although that's an interesting parallel to pursue as well, especially given the fact ANH was pitched at a US market. I wonder sometimes if different audiences did take different interpretations from the same material -- Americans took the "independence" thing because of their background, while Europe and the rest of the world saw the Nazi element because they'd confronted the Nazi menace on their home ground, so to speak.
  18. Hammurabi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2007
    star 4
    The most fascinating Nazi parallel in ANH is the final scene, which perfectly mirrors a scene from Triumph of the Will:
    [image=http://www.horrordvds.com/reviews/n-z/totw/totw_shot6l.jpg]
    And mind you, those are the Rebels. Puzzling.

    Anyways, ANH presents some Nazi-esque qualities to the Empire. We've got stormtroopers, as well as the officer uniforms which bear a certain resemblance to Nazi stuff. And of course, ANH makes it quite clear that the Empire is bad: Darth Vader choking people, Grand Moff Tarkin blowing up planets... They're set up as a force of evil in the world, in stark opposition to guys like Luke and Obi-Wan. If we can, that's a notion I might like to distance this universe from, if only a little; I'm not really a fan of absolutist good-vs-evil stuff, and I think it'd be more interesting to emphasize the side of the Empire that doesn't choke people just because they feel like it. The elimination of Vader helps us here - the rest of the Empire is far more pragmatic, though Tarkin is truly a wicked man. The Empire I'm imagining is led mostly by social and military elites. The top of society. They generally won't be outright evil, but most of 'em will probably be somewhat lacking in terms of compassion.

    For the most part, the Empire doesn't resemble Nazi Germany. But then again, ANH doesn't give us a picture of the galaxy's heartland - we see the outer edges. What this means is that we're fairly free to paint the core of the Empire as we please. The details we see in ANH are pretty vague - all we really know is that the Empire is big and bad, but has a limited influence in the outer reaches of the galaxy. That could describe just about any empire in world history, and I think the generic-ness is somewhat intended. However, I might lean slightly toward them being British-based - the Empire just strikes me as a naval superpower. In that sense, they also resemble America, as well as some of the other European nations (namely France and Spain).

    EDIT: Saint got to some of my points first. In other news, expect an update tomorrow probably regarding the game's structure. Though it might come later. Depends.
  19. SephyCloneNo15 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2005
    star 5
    Good points all around, especially on the Empire not all being kitten-kicking, moustache-twirling Snidely Whiplashes. We really only see Vader, the evil sorcerer-type character and Tarkin, the scheming politician character, as truly at that Snidely Whiplash degree of evil. Motti (or is it Tagge? I can never keep them straight) gives us a very strong military impression when he points out that no naval force could hope to take on the Death Star. I bet most of them wouldn't even think twice if they didn't have a superlaser at all, and just had to orbit with the Death Star giddily blowing up Rebel fleets with unstoppable barrages of turbolaser fire.

    Only Tarkin seems to really be all that big on the planet-exploding side of things. Vader's really evil in other ways, and everyone else is just in that Imperial Military mindset of wanting to win the war and settle back on their massive Core-world estates.
  20. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2000
    star 6
    I would like to correct someone about "stormtroopers". Stormtroopers existed BEFORE the Nazis. Stormtroopers are German shock troops and they existed as far back as WWI. Nazi Stormtroopers are street bullies.

    The only resemblance to Nazi Germany with the Galactic Empire is the uniform. Thats it. There is nothing else that can be compared to the Nazis. And no the slaughtering of the Jedi doesn't count. That can be applied to any nation with a history of genocide (America included).
  21. Hammurabi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2007
    star 4
    Yes, but it is conceivable that Lucas equated them with Nazi stormtroopers. In any case, you're largely right: the Empire really doesn't resemble the Nazis, though if you squint hard enough there are some similarities.
  22. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2000
    star 6
    Actually no it's not conceivable at all. Imperial Stormtroopers are not street bullies. You dont see them in the movies going around randomly beating people up because their political perspective is not in line with doctrine. In the movies Stormtroopers are displayed as shock troopers, elite soldiers, loyal to their monarch. Palpatine even says they are elite and loyal.

    German stormtroopers are shock troopers that are elite soldiers loyal to their monarch.

    COMPNOR thugs are the Imperial version of Nazi Stormtroopers and COMPNOR is a West End Games creation who diligently tried to make the Galactic Empire out to be like Nazi Germany.

    George Lucas did not envision the Empire to be anything like Nazi Germany. He borrowed the Werhmacht Heer (Army) Officer's uniform because it looked "sharp". If anything, the Galactic Empire is closely related to the Roman Empire.

    Those similarities you speak of can also be compared to Rome, Russia, Japan, China, America, Britain or any other nation with a history of war and inhumane treatment of civilians and prisoners. Nazi Germany stands out the most in our minds because we're ingrained to believe that Nazi Germany is the most horrible and evil regime to have ever existed and if you know your history you'll disagree.


    But anyway, we're not here to discuss Nazism and the Galactic Empire are we? I just wanted to point out that the Imperial and Nazi Stormtroopers are not one and the same except in name.
  23. Penguinator RPF Modinator and Batmanager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 6
    Nothing else?

    Luke was a little short for a stormtrooper.

    They're all human, all Caucasian, all male, all generally the same height (at least a bit taller than Luke), they blew up an entire planet...I'd say those are all parallels.
  24. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2000
    star 6
    One word: Clones

    Clones tend to be the same height, gender and race. You can't fault them for that. Once the parameters have been set for the armor, its costly to change it so someone of Luke's height can effectively wear it. Cheaper to just recruit into the Corps men who are the same height. Also you know those black uniformed officers in ROTJ (no not the guys with the black samurai-like helms)? They are Stormtrooper officers. The two we saw were taller or shorter than stormtroopers. So the Stormtrooper Corps seems to have men who are either taller or shorter than Stormtroopers. Funny no?

    Secondly, the Nazi Regime never came close to wiping out an entire civilization despite their attempt to do so with the Jews. If you want regimes that have wiped out civilizations or brought them down to a number where they can't recover from, then why don't you look up the United States Calvary or the Conquistadors, especially the Conquistadors.

    Third, the Waffen-SS, Luftwaffe, Heer, Kreigsmarine, Gestapo and the Schutzstaffel were not all the same height nor were they exclusively restricted to men or Germans. kthxgbye.



    And I believe this thread has gotten off topic long enough. If anyone else wishes to debate with me on this subject feel free to PM and I'll gladly take it there.
  25. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Well said, Mitth. :)

    Getting back to the topic at hand, some of the dialogue from ANH is handy for giving us some insights as to the nature of the galaxy at hand:

    Obi-Wan Kenobi: "This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy, or random, as a blaster - an elegant weapon, from [for?] a more civilised age. For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the Dark Times. Before the Empire." (Emphasis added).

    Obi-Wan Kenobi: "A young Jedi named Darth Vader -- who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil -- helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct."

    Luke: "It's not that I like the Empire, I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it right now! Besides, it's all such a long way from here." (Emphasis added).

    Luke: "You fought in the Clone Wars?"
    Obi-Wan: "Yes. I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father."

    Tagge (I think): "Until this battle station is fully operational we are vulnerable. The Rebel Alliance is too well-equipped; they're more dangerous than you realise."
    Motti (I think): "Dangerous to your star fleet, commander - not to this battle station."
    Tagge: "The Rebellion will continue to gain support in the Imperial Senate until--"
    Tarkin: "The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us" (etc.)

    Luke: "You don't believe in the Force, do you?"
    Han: "Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other; I've seen a lot of strange stuff. But I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one, all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."

    (As an aside, reading those lines on the page makes me realise how much of a film rests on the delivery of the actors. And Harrison Ford in particular. Truly, ANH rests on his and Alec Guinness's performances.)

    The reason I include the highlighted bits is because they seem to suggest the Empire as a whole is either complicit in or devoted to evil. And yes, Obi-Wan does have the habit of talking about things from a certain point of view - except that Luke seems to have a similar opinion of the Empire despite having little to no contact with Ben, which suggests it's a fairly widespread point of view. Unless you're prepared to take a "Luke and Ben are in the minority" argument, I don't think you can get away from the Empire as an oppressive, if not totalitarian, regime. I would also have posited that the way the "Mofference" is filmed and acted also supports that point of view.
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