A new way to understand the Prophecy?

Yet String Theory may ultiamtely prove him right! Perhaps he wasn't wrong at all - just (once agin) way ahead of his time.

 

Yes, perhaps someone - hmmm - the young man in question should have been more open on both issues.

Great, yes. Perfect - NO. His greatest failings? That death bed promise and the way he set up the sibling rivalry dynamic betwen Obi and Ani which hampered Obi's training of Ani the whole time

That's from the on-line script I have. If it's not totally accurate I was unaware of it. Please point out to what I am not responding in particular. Usually where IMO an impasse has been reached - I let things go.

In a word - no. But I do distinguish emotion from instinct in the classic evolutionary, biological sense. If you have another definiton please supply it.

My problem w/ Ani is he stopped listening to Obi prematurely - a lot of people lay that at Obi's door. I don't. It goes back to the sibling rivalry thing and the fact that once Ani had percieved that his raw power was greater than Obi's - he shut down. He wasn't listening or trying to learn. He wasn't reaching out in any way. He felt he had moved past him and he wanted his knighthood and nothing else from Obi at that point.
The Dooku battle was a perfect example. Obi wanted to teach him how to think - in battle - and Ani didn't listen. He wasn't using the Force, using his "instincts" or listening. He wasn't doing anything but letting his emotions run away w/ him. So "Use the Force - think!" would have saved his arm as well as his soul if you ask me.

 

Actually - he has.

"Which brings us to films 4, 5 and 6, where Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."
--George Lucas
"In each of us we have balanced these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance."

Balance is about geting rid of the Sith - not the humbling the Jedi.

GL: "As Yoda says in this one, 'You must learn to let go of everything you're afraid to let go of.' Because holding on is in the same category and the precursor to greed. And that's what a Sith is. A Sith is somebody that is absolutely obsessed with gaining more and more power - but for what? Nothing, except that it becomes an obsession to get more. "

 

So who who taught him all that Cry? Who taught him to distinguish right from wrong so well that everytime he went off - he knew it. He knew the Tusken slaughter was unjustified, he knew living a lie (the secret marriage) - "would destroy us." He knew killing Dooku was wrong. He knew the Jedi were different (better)from the Sith. He even knew turning on Mace was wrong.

Who gave him the ability to make those distinctions? That "failed mentor" Obi-wan, perhaps? The one who takes so much of the blame (even upon himself) had endowed Ani w/ all the "tools" he needed to make the right decision. He just didn't do it.

 

i'm a little confused here. whats goin on, pm me.
but in reply to last post, i think it was anikins corrupted decision to go agenst obi-wan, and qui-gons stupidity to try to train anikin. anikin was never ment to be trained in the jedi arts, that would save the jedi.

 

The online scripts are never accurate - I don't know why. The dialogue I've posted is the one on the DVD.

Well, Wilber distinguishes between so-called pre- and transrationality. Pre-rationality is what's commonly meant by "irrational behaviour", acting on neuro-hormonally induced emotions. Transrationality is non-rational in a different sense. It is about listening to intuition, to "feelings" in the spiritual sense. Both states of mind can be clearly distinguished on the basis of monitoring brain wave spectrums. In the "normal" rational state the brain operates in the lower beta state with about 10-18 Hz. In the emotionally agitated state, which would amount to what Wilber calls "pre-rationality" it operates in the higher beta-state at > 18 Hz. In the state of intuitive feeling (what would be "transrationality) by contrast, it operates in the theta state at < 8 Hz. What I mean by learning to act on "feeling" is the latter state.

Question is why Anakin shut down to Obi. He didn't shut down to other people, it seems. I don't think it is a question of whether either Anakin or Obi is to blame. In my book, they both have their share.

And I think he should have learnt - or be taught - to use his "feelings" and his intuition, as defined above, instead of letting his emotions run away with him. His feelings and intuition, if he had listened to them, would have told him that he couldn't take Dooku alone. I don't believe that "thinking" would have saved him since he had no information for judging the power of Dooku on a purely intellectual, rational basis. Obi, by contrast, from his Darth Maul experience had. I think the Dooku battle was a classical example for a case in which acting on intuition might have saved Anakin. That Anakin had a tremenduous potential for acting on intuition and what Qui-Gon called "instinct" was clearly shown in the pod race as well as his other piloting skills. Anakin was piloting not using his rational mind, when he was piloting he let himself be guided by intuition, it was an almost meditative state. Unfortunately, this tremenduous potential for acting on intuition and "feeling" was never developed and shaped. And that it wasn't in part was Obi-Wan's mistake, because he didn't know enough about the living Force. "The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, et cetera." (GL). That's where Anakin's potential strength was, and what he would have needed was a teacher who was able to teach him how to develop that potential. Obi-Wan wasn't that teacher; he literally didn't understand this potential strength of Anakin (while Sidious, being tremendously strong with the living Force himself, understood; which was a major reason Anakin felt so close to him) - Qui-Gon might have been.

On the issue of what "bringing balance" means, George Lucas has made several different statements which aren't readily reconcilable. He has stated that bringing balance was about destroying the Sith, and he has also stated that the "in each of us we have

 

Did you even read my first paragraph? Or, for that matter, the opening post of the thread?

Likewise: "It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance." That's the subjective interpretation of a SINGLE person. It's clear the Jedi can't really agree on what "balance" means, but due to the timing of Anakin's appearance coinciding with the appearance of the Sith, they seem to believe it most likely involves eradicating the Sith. From a certain point of view, they are correct.

What does this have to do with balance? Lucas was merely elaborating on Sith behaviour.

Show me some direct quotes where Lucas states whether the Jedi were causing the imbalance or not and we'll talk. I've personally never seen or heard of him making black and white statements on the issue. How hard could it be for him to say: "The Jedi were not causing the imbalance at all. The Sith were causing it entirely."? Lucas is not a stupid man. If he wanted to use unambiguous language, he would have done so. But he didn't and he hasn't. I don't see anything remotely contradictory about the beliefs I hold and have articulated herein. But OK, here's a new one...

Let's imagine you are correct and the Jedi were not causing an imbalance of any kind. Could their destruction, as horrific as it was, still have been a good thing? Does Luke still represent a more "well-rounded" Jedi in touch with other people and his own feelings? I think he does. There are a lot of imagery, symbolism and ideas being presented in the saga that suggest the Jedi Order of the first three films is fallible and failing; these are things I have given examples of in my last post. Luke stands on a new threshold. He knows things that the Order didn't (retaining one's spirit with the Force). He has experienced things that the Order didn't (confronting his own Dark Side and redeeming a Sith). He has lived a life that the members of the Order didn't (two decades of normal family life). He has a literal family and close non-Jedi friends that members of the Order didn't. In almost every way imaginable, Luke has tasted the Earth, so to speak, and the people and creatures upon it. His philosophy and outlook on life has been learned; not told to him through rigorous training and indoctrination as a child. He has a strong grasp of self and a holistic grasp of the universe. Whatever he does from the end of Return of the Jedi on is bound to be enlightened - significantly more so than any Jedi of the PT could aspire to. If Luke is exactly the same kind of Jedi as before, and if he establishes the same kind of Order as before, things are just going to go in circles. Lucas is saying that human nature is cyclical - but, with enough motivating us to change and break that cycle, we might be able to. After six films, that opportunity for these fictional characters, and ourselves cathartically, is finally there. It makes the final minutes of Return of the Jedi and the entire saga that much more resonant and profound.

Anakin

 

Perhaps. At least I'd say that Palpatine sprang into the gap the death of Qui-Gon Jinn had opened for Anakin. Which proves two things for me: (1) Obi-Wan couldn't fill that gap because he wasn't the kind of teacher Anakin really needed, and (2) there was a very profound insight into what was going on in Anakin's psyche on the part of Palpatine. That?s the point I?ve been trying to make numerous times ? more often than not in vain: Palpatine understood - and I mean "understood", not "pretended to understand" - he genuinely and very profoundly understood aspects of Anakin's psyche that Obi-Wan (or the other Jedi) could never understand. Anakin didn't fall for a whisk or a cheap diddler ? he fell for a man with enormous insight and more wisdom about the Living Force than any Jedi at that time could offer to him.

I agree with respect to the Opera scene. He didn't buy it at that time, therefore Palpatine changed the subject and brought up the Plagueis issue -- which btw. shows that in case his plan doesn't work out, he's always something else upon his sleeve. With respect to the issue with Mace, I'm not so sure. Anyway, I agree that part of him still knew what was right and wrong. But the Jedi had aberrated from their own code so far that ?right? versus ?wrong? wasn?t any longer the same as ?Jedi? vs. ?Sith? for him.

 

Yes!

I almost forgot about the ACTUAL turn. Anakin actually looks shocked when Mace decides Sidious should be executed. I guess his thinking was altered after that.

 

As has been pointed out, we don't know what "balancing the Force" means. We also don't know the exact wording of the prophecy. We do know that the Jedi view the balancing as a thing to be desired, and we know from Obi-Wan that they believe it foretells the destruction of the Sith (It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them.). Also, I think we can all agree that the Force is balanced by at least the end of Episode VI.

Given all of that, two possible theories are being presented in this thread: 1. The Jedi misread the prophecy. They believed only the Sith had to be destroyed to balance the Force, that only the Sith were imbalancing the equation. But they too were imbalancing the Force, so they had to be eliminated as well. 2. The prophecy was read perfectly. Anakin destroyed the Sith. Anakin balanced the Force with that sole act.

Just as I am sure all of us are familiar with Occam's Razor I'm sure almost as many of us are rolling our eyes already. In the presence of two possible theories, choose the simpler of the two. Occam's Razor points to the prophecy being correctly read. In this theory, why would the prophecy not mention the death of the Jedi? The death of the Jedi had only a little more to do with balancing Force as Amidala's hairstyle, which probably wasn't in the prophecy either.

Now if we figure the Jedi were creating an imblance and had to be eradicated, are we assuming that among the combined thousands of them, none of them was in balance with the Force? I can easily believe two Sith are out of balance with the Force. Why would the Force allow Obi-Wan and Yoda to live beyond the rest of the Jedi? Sure, Obi-Wan died in battle against the person who was balancing the Force, so you can say it was still Anakin who brought balance to that loose end. But Yoda died years later of old age in his bed. Anakin can't take credit for balancing that part of the Force. Now you can say that Obi-Wan and Yoda were the two Jedi in balance with the Force, but they sure seemed to be preaching the company line to me, so did the Force just decide to give them another chance?

 

I'm sorry to me - that quote says it all. He tells what brings balance - destruction of the Sith. If that's what brings balance - then ipso facto, that's what was causing the imbalance. Your supposition that he doesn't directly say that the Jedi weren't responsible for the imbalance so they probably were doesn't hold water for me. Do we now need an exhaustive list of everything Lucas didn't say?

Of course - if were going to take that tack - Lucas didn't say that "that single person" in TPM who thinks it's the Sith causing the imbalance was wrong either.

This is what causes the imbalance. Lucus posits that there must be a balance between good and evil. Ying and yang. The Sith are so extreme they throw that equilibrium off. What about the Jedi throws that equilibrium off? Are you of the opinion that they too had become evil? Or are they too good? I've yet to see anyone satisfactorily explain how the PT Jedi were throwing off the balance between good and evil, unless they believe that the Jedi themselves had become evil. A contention I highly dispute.

I find it highly offensive that thousands of good people die so something marginally better could come along. That the galaxy was thrown into chaos - atrocities like Alderaan were committed just to build a better model Jedi. If that's what this Saga is - nothing more than a horror story (as you say) of sorts w/ no heart that's something I don't want to be a fan of. I was never a big fan of slasher flicks - if that's what the PT is - all the "bad Jedi" getting killed by the "demon" (like the teens who go into the woods to have sex) so only goods ones survive and start fresh - count me out.

To me it's story about a group of good people who did need to change and grow - needed to expand their horizons. They had lost their way a bit. So they were sent a "messianic" figure - a savior of sorts. Due to many factors (not all the Jedi's fault but some theirs) this savior failed them. Instead of being a force for good - he becomes evil. He chooses evil. That's why his spirit is trapped in that black prison the entire OT. His soul can't rest or escape - it hasn't fullfilled it's mission. It finally does escape when he does fulfill this mission - when he once again becomes a force for good - when he rejects evil. The whole Saga rests on that moment when Luke refuses to turn - makes the choice the Chosen One should have made and inspires him to finally make the right choice - free his spirit (as we see in his funeral pyre) and restore balance to the Force. Rid the galaxy of this overwhelming evil.

That's what is all about for me.

 

Correct. And every other issue stems from this one. The wording is NEVER revealed.

Let's re-write that with appropriate emphasis:

We do know that the Jedi view the balancing as a thing to be desired, and we know from Obi-Wan that they believe it foretells the destruction of the Sith (It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them.).

Clearly, the prophecy is a vague and ephemeral thing. We can only know the following things with relative certainty:

a) The prophecy exists and is agreed upon as existing under such a definition by every Jedi that mentions it.
b) The prophecy foretells of "the Chosen One" who will bring the Force into balance (meaning, by implication, it must be out of balance before this time).

Absolutely nothing else is known - or at least divulged - in the saga itself. Lucas has made it clear that a primary condition for the prophecy being fulfilled is for the Sith to be destroyed. Fine. Why? Because they were clearly sustaining the imbalance. But were they the exclusive culprits? Lucas has never commented on this with complete clarity.

If you pay close attention to the exchange that Obi Wan, Mace and Yoda have on the Republic gunship in Revenge of the Sith, it is clear that the Jedi are having doubts as to the validity of their interpretation of the prophecy: "A prophecy that misread, could have been" (followed by Mace nodding in silent agreement). The implication in that scene is not that the Jedi are doubting Anakin is the Chosen One in and of itself, but rather, because of their distrust of Anakin, they are doubting their specific interpretation of the prophecy. The prophecy itself, by implication ("You refer to the prophecy of the one will bring balance to the Force. You believe it's this... boy?"), does not name or ascribe any particular traits to the individual alluded to as "the Chosen One". Thus, in doubting Anakin's abilities and attitude, the Jedi are doubting the implication that they have personally drawn from the prophecy: i.e. HOW the Chosen One is meant to bring balance (in their view: by destroying the Sith). Watch the scene again. It is absolutely critical.

Yes.

Now you've taken to stating things as fact and mocking the opposing viewpoint. Well done. Somehow, you went from presenting an impartial evaluation of both sides in your last post, which I found commendable, to this. How can one be expected to maintain a civil discussion when the opposing argument is being flamed, mocked and outright parodied? Well, I shall take the moral high ground here and keep up my end, even if you can't keep up yours...

Why would the prophecy not mention the Jedi? I don't know. Maybe for the same reason, as I have just logically argued, it evidently does not mention the Sith. The prophecy seems built out of a prediction for the ultimate state of the Force - not those who tap into it. This is the logic hole that many seem to have fallen into. The prophecy is what it is: very vague, very elusive and completely amoral and apathetic. The Jedi mi

 

What are these "feelings?" What is this intuition? Where does it come from? Is it learned behavior? Race memory? What? Intuition is usually nothing more than a supraconscious state wherein we've created shortened nerve pathways for accessing information in a more efficient manner. But we had to learn this information somehow in the first place. Stimulus generalization is a form of what people call intuition. But it's still some sort of rational thinking any way you slice it.

He shut down to his mentor because he no longer percieved him as such. He had moved past him in his mind - he had nothing of value left to teach him. And it irked Anakin that Obi thought (correctly) that he did.

If Ani hadn't been drunk on his own power he would have rationally realized that Obi did have more experience here - he did have something to teach him - he did have something of value to impart. But he had lost respect for Obi so he didn't listen.

It's funny that Obi got Ani to the stage of power that he did being such a piss poor teacher. There's no real proof that Obi didn't try to teach (or even succeed in teaching him) how to use his "instincts." What's clear is that stage we do see Anakin in AOTC he was neglecting to use any kind of rationality - so Obi was trying to emphasize that. I also see no sign that Ani is only strong in the Living Force anyway - the Living Force gives no premonitions and Ani was getting strong premonitions from the Unifying Force. I think The Chosen One could have mastered both sides of the Force if he hadn't decided he had nothing left to learn prematurely. Obi had a lot still to teach Anakin - and he was still trying - right up until he had to slice him up - Anakin just wouldn't listen. In fact he was still trying to instruct him right before his own death on the Death Star and Anakin still wasn't paying attention.

Well, I just listened to ROTS w/ the audio commentary and Lucas continually reinforces the idea that the Sith are evil and and are throwing things out of balance. He mentions nothing else. What is this other thing? Why won't he tell us? Is it that if he tells someone he has to kill them?

 

I read through many of the discussions concerning blame to Ani vs blame to Obi and it's all pretty enlightening. But I think many are missing the point; Palpatine had been manipulating Anakin since he was nine. There's a reason he doesn't listen to Obi Wan and act out of rage and madness; because he's being secretly trained by a Sith Lord without his or anyone else's knowledge. The seeds of the dark side are being planted as the story progresses.

The spectral image of Anakin at the end of Return of the Jedi shows him wearing tan and WHITE robes. This represents the Jedi he would have been had Sidious not been twisting his mind. This is why the story begins when Anakin is a little boy; to show that his fall from grace was a very long and detailed one. It didn't happen over night and the lessons Anakin didn't learn are due to his mind being in a constant state of confusion. His dark Jedi robes are the clues to this. Remember the series is based on the visual storytelling style of a silent film.

This pattern of seduction against Anakin didn't work on Luke, because he was hidden away until he was an adult.

 

A lot of the reason Palpatine was so successful was due to "baggage" that Qui-gon saddled Obi with before he even began training Ani. Obi was dealing w/ a "poisoned well" from the get go.

?Poisoned well? not referring to Anakin himself but to Anakin?s experience up to that point. A lot of which is due to Qui-gon?s lack of foresight (yes, sometimes you have to look at the future - living in the moment is not always the way to go.) If Qui had only approached the Council with some forethought and caution. Acknowledge the possibility that the Council might not see things his way (as Obi warned) and therefore not have Ani in the room for the decision. Be ready with a back-up plan and suggestions. Take their decision calmly (?NO!!???? Ugh.) If his main back-up plan was going to be to train Ani himself then take the opportunity on the balcony to discuss it with Obi ? tell him privately that he was ready for the trials, etc.

Having Ani in the room during the Council meeting led to him starting his assocation w/ the Jedi under a veil of resentment towards the Council that initially rejected him. (Which he may never have truly gotten over.) And he also had to feel that Qui rejected Obi in favor of him (setting up a sibling rivalry dynamic.) He also heard Qui dismiss Obi as merely "capable" and having "a lot to learn."

Ani ended up being a very powerful individual - he respected one thing only - power. That's why he both liked the Chancellor and liked being around him - the aura of Power. Power he didn't feel Obi had due to Ani outstripping Obi in raw force (but not in control or understanding) and due to the cloud under which they started their association.

 

I agree with the above.

However, I posted this in another forum and believe it is relevant to the subject of this thread:

George Lucas has said that Qui-Gon was both "wrong and right" in The Phantom Menace - that Qui-Gon made a "dangerous decision" on Tatooine. I think what Lucas means by that is the Qui-Gon was "right" about Anakin being the Chosen One, but "wrong" in the decision to separate him from Shmi and begin training him at age 9. (Did Qui-Gon "cheat" in the roll of the dice with Watto? ) Anakin's attachment to his mother - his fear for her which Yoda senses and his inability to let that go - is a problem in terms of his training. It would have been better to wait until Anakin was older and more emotionally mature. If he's the Chosen One - with the highest concentration of midichlorians of any being - then training him once he was older and had more emotional maturity with respect to his mother shouldn't be an issue.

 

I bring this up front because you have read venom into something I typed with no venomous intent. I intentionally prefaced those lines with "in this theory" to show I was writing fully from the perspective of someone with that opinion. If you thought Amidala's hairstyle was frivolous to the point of mocking, my point was made, but in addition I unintentionally upset you. I apologize for the latter and will attempt to be serious in this response and in the event that I post again to this thread.

I'm not sure what you mean by stating fact, but anyone using Occam's Razor would have come to that same conclusion. If I took any side it was that of William of Ockham.

The words you highlighted were there for you to be able to highlight because I was keeping no secret that the views were not certain.

I agree completely. Prophecy is always fuzzy. And George Lucas guaranteed garbage in and garbage out is the result of any of our theories given that he never specifically worded the prophecy. However if we reach on the more obscure parts and obscure the clearer parts, we're not making the prophecy any clearer.

I'm curious what criteria you are using to decide the certainty of interpretations. Why for instance is it a certainty that there is a Chosen One when that could be interpreted incorrectly just as easily as correctly? Why is it less certain that the prophecy is to destroy the Sith when that could interpreted incorrectly just as easily as correctly?

I can only assume you mean to ask why I can accept that the Sith are imbalancing the Force but can't accept it may be possible that the Jedi are imbalancing the Force. Of course it's possible the Jedi could be imbalancing the Force. If you're argument is purely hypothetical, then I have no reason to argue a "what if" scenario. If you're arguing that there is actual evidence that the Jedi were imbalancing the Force, then you're not only assuming the evidence to support your argument but you've assumed an argument too.

Also, you accept that there is a chosen one who will balance the Force--and I take that directly from your assessment of what is and isn't certain--and if we assume the Sith were imbalancing the Force, then there needs to be evidence that someone acted directly to end the existence of the Sith. We have direct visual evidence that Anakin killed himself and Emperor Palpatine, so he would have to be our Chosen One if we assume all I've stated in this paragraph. If we assume the Jedi were imbalancing the Force and Anakin is the Chosen One (based on evidence that he ended the imbalance caused by the Sith) then we need direct evidence that Anakin acted directly to end the Jedi. I can't see how Ana

 

I don?t care what ?people? commonly call intuition. I?m talking about intuition in the Jungian sense. It is not rational in the classical sense of rationality because it is associated with the right rather than the left cerebrum half. And it?s about getting access to what Jung called the collective unconscious, that?s why it doesn?t have to be learnt in the first place. I?m sorry for not being able to give a crash course onJungian and transpersonal psychology to a person who?s obviously never heard about these things in a few TFN posts. It took me years to understand even the basic stuff and I?m in no way qualified for teaching it.

Yes, he had moved past him in his mind and he had felt misunderstood for over a decade, because Obi didn?t have enough understanding of the Living Force, which was Anakin?s major strength, and therefore couldn?t teach him about it. Anakin realized that and finally shut down to him.

His feelings would have told him also. And if he has lost the respect for his teacher then obviously there was something wrong with the teachings. Otherwise he wouldn?t have lost the respect for him.

There is enough evidence that the Living Force wasn?t Obi?s strength. Qui-Gon said it more than once, and even Yoda reminded him to "search his feelings". And there is no hint whatsoever that Obi did try and teach him how to use his instinct. I?ve never said that Anakin wasonly strong with the Living Force. I said it was his greatest strength. I wonder why this sentence is on the Official Site databank: ? Kenobi recklessly thought that he could be as skillful a master as Yoda. His mistakes had dire consequences for the galaxy.? -- if Obi was such a great teacher who did everything right and it was all just the fault of Anakin there would be no point to it.

To r

 

Occam's razor was a tool invented for scientific analysis, and it has proven to be dangerously encouraging short-cut solutions that turn out to be wrong because things often aren't what they seem to be. Now, Mythology is all about symbolism, indirect storytelling and hidden meanings and messages. Many things aren't what they seem to be, and the problem I see in many of these discussions is that people are taking everything one-dimensional and face-value. Occam's razor is about the most ineligible tool available when it comes to analyzing mythology.

 

This right brain / left brain thing has been blown way out of proportion by those w/ a poor understanding of anatomy. The orginal studies that establsihed such "compartmentalization" were done solely in men. The corpus callosum tends to strengthen later in boys than girls and therefore exaggerates this division of work. In females the division is not so severe. And stroke vicitms have shown that there is nothing the right brain can traditionally do that the left is not truely capable of and visa versa. It's all grey matter.
I know enough about Jung to know that less mystical proponents of the Jungian model hold that the collective unconscious can be adequately explained as arising in each individual from shared instinct, common experience, and shared culture. Most of this is learned experience - it's still rational thought - just accessed through unique nerve pathways.

It's all about power. If Anakin had felt that Obi had truely neglected him in such a manner he would never have said that Obi was a "great mentor." He wouldn't have said he was greatful to be his apprentice. He wouldn't have praised him as "strong and wise." He mentions nothing about his teachings being lacking - he talks only about having moved past him. It's all in the script - for ANAKIN it's about POWER.

Well nothing did tell him this - neither feelings nor thought - and that was Ani's failing - not Obi's.

No he was "primed" to lose respect for him because of the mistakes Qui-gon made in the early stages of their relationship, because of what Palps was saying about Obi behind his back and because he was not as powerful as Ani who had come to believe power was the end and the beginning of all things. It was only after Ani was humbled by Dooku that he was wiling to see how much Obi still had to teach him.

Ten years earlier.

When Obi was desperately trying to get out of having to kill the young man he loved as son and brother. Obi was stalling and Yoda knew it.

Nor proof that he didn't. But we do have Anakin saying he was a great mentor.

Well for starters - that sentance has been removed. It now says:
Obi-Wan recognized both Anakin's strengths and weaknesses, and he tried to impart his lessons with the patience and understanding that his mentor, Qui-Gon, did. As Anakin progressed, Obi-Wan grew increasingly concerned that the young Padawan's raw power had fostered a dangerous arrogance.

Because it wasn't their presence alone that created the imbalance. It was

 

I'm well aware of shortcomings in Occam's Razor, just as I am aware all scientific processes have shortcomings. As advertised, Occam's Razor does not come up with the one truth bright shiny it's splendor. It's simply the most likely--and even then it's only the most likely of all theories presented. A leap of faith will always be required in light of limited evidence. We can make that leap based on facts or we can make that leap based on pure speculation.

Certainly. In mythology you can come across a city burned to the ground, and despite a completely logical conclusion such as attack by an armed force, the true answer could be that an angry god bathed the city in fire. Now, still in the realm of mythology, if we come across that same ruined city with knowledge of the existence of that same god but an army supplied with burning pitch and vast numbers of archers is getting massively drunk off to the side while singing songs and eating a feast, we can't cut Billy some slack and assume that army had something to do with the attack? Sure, it may be absolute incontrovertible fact that the army showed up ready to fight only to discover a god bathing the city in fire, at which point Occam's Razor was no help. It failed pretty miserably. However without evidence of divine intervention, why would anyone assume it? If logic and evidence are always forced to surrender to the fantastic, there is absolutely no point in arguing, because each of us has our own personal, built-in deus ex machina whenever our argument doesn't hold water.

 

We're never told when the imbalance started nor when the prophecy was made. If I make the same assumption, I can ask how the Jedi could be part of the cause of the imbalance if they have been around for over a thousand generations without there being an imbalance. Obviously if the imbalance came after the Jedi were formed and after the Sith were formed and either one of them was responsible for the imbalance it would have to have been caused by some change that took place in one or both groups. Your assertion does not have to be true. How can the Sith have been solely reponsible for an imblance that took place in the last thousand years? Because they changed the way they did things and that caused the imbalance. Now in an attempt to head off the inevitable mirror image argument: How can the Jedi have been solely reponsible for an imblance that took place in the last thousand years? Because they changed the way they did things and that caused the imbalance. I see both sides, so I don't need anyone to mention the other. Unfortunately the door swings both ways.

 

Wonderful point! Mythology it may be but it's still the subject under analysis here. Everyone has their theories (hypotheses) and has marshalled their defense of these theories (facts) such as quotes from the script, from the author, snippets of philosophy and pyschology.

I see no reason why an analysis tool such as Occam's Razor should be any less useful in intepreting a myth than it is in interpreting an experiment. This myth does follow a logical progression - it's not an exercise in surreal story telling.

 

I believe the imbalance came from the activites of the Sith. The balance between good and evil was thrown off when the Sith made their power grab - their move to take over the galaxy. That's why - when this Sith Rule was ended - balance was restored.

You know how Faith w/ out good works is "dead"? Well, Evil w/o "bad works" is equally dead.

 

In females the division is not so severe because the brain balk is bigger and more dense with neurons. Nothing to do with the specialization of tasks that is there from birth per se. And actually the study of stroke patients has shown that there are areals in the brain that cannot be replaced.

You can always find minority groups that hold a heterodox interpretation. Dreams about myths belonging to an entirely different culture the client has never heard of can't be explained by shared instincs, common experience and shared culture.

If Anakin had felt understood by Obi, he wouldn't have stated that "he never listens, he doesn't understand."

The absense of evidence against it is no proof that he did. And we have Anakin saying he was a great mentor who never listens and doesn't understand.

This sentence has NOT been removed. It is there in the Darth Vader entry. http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/darthvader/index.html
Whether you like it or not - the official site states that Obi-Wan (and not Qui-Gonn) has made mistakes and the galaxy had to pay for them.

In my book, it was the imbalances within the Jedi order itself that allowed them to grab power in the first place.

And to me it's a story about many themes, personal choice and integrity being just one of them.

"Star Wars is made up of many themes. It's not just one little simple parable. One is our relationship to machines, which are fearful, but also benign. Then there is the lesson of friendship and symbiotic relationships, of your obligations to your fellow man, to other people that are around you. This is a world where evil has run amuck. But you have control over your destiny, you have many paths to walk down, and you can choose which destiny is going to be yours."- Time interview (Bill Moyers) 03/05/99

"Most, I mean all, art, all mythology is a metaphor. It's not about that. It's not about the words written on the page. It's not about the paint on the surface or how they got there, it