PT A (non-blunt) refutation of the Ring Theory

http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/

Is that really a good scene description?

Quigon demands to land immediately - the captain relays the demand with a little bit of diplomacy.

Why concede the "opponent's" bad, weak points?
The defensive attitude here will be its undoing.

The entire sequence has a thick atmosphere of tension, urgency and mystery - in accordance with Quigon's demand, the unclear nature of the blockade and Gunray's obviously dishonest claims of legitimacy and hospitality.

Unlike the previous 3 movies, the camera doesn't "linger" on the empty space for a few seconds before objects start appearing - before the camera's even done panning down, the republic ship's already flying at the camera, giving the very first few seconds a noticeable punch and pace.

After it flies past it, the camera reveals the blockade and lingers on the shot for a bit, the score (distantly reminiscent of the spooky, quiet "Alien" theme) conveying mystery and uncertainty.


After the viceroy, in an obviously shady tone of voice, assures them a warm welcome, the music swells, conveying danger and tension, and the pace picks up once again, as the ship swings back and forth and moves in to land.

As it's slowly landing, with steam blowing and the atmosphere continuing to convey a sense of "wrongness", the battle droids are seen turning around at the ship - not hostile at this point (and not comical either), this reenforces the unease permeating the scene, indicating a possible threat.


While the mysterious tone is mainly stemming from the location, the Jedi (in a similar fashion to Ben's reveal from IV, and Luke's from VI - though how justified, is unclear in this case) are also given an aura of mystery - first shown only from behind on board of the ship, then seen walking into the room their faces hidden behind hoods, their "reveal" after the droid leaves the room gives another punch to the sequence, and to the introduction of the lead characters.



Bland? Uninspired?
The only sensible part of the RLM excerpt is the bemusement at the "doughnut ship" - the Star Destroyer's shape and angle conveyed a clear, potent image in IV, while in this case, it just seems like a "cool design".

The core of the station obviously resembles the Death Star (ships in I-III "foreshadow" those in IV-VI, though not necessarily in the most organized fashion - another topic) - the "moon" is surrounded by a thing in the shape of a Saturn ring, which also isn't particularly mystifying.

The weird part is that this ring is shaped like a bracelet - and, aside from that, the shape doesn't communicate much aside from "this is a precursor to the Empire".



However, symbolic shapes are generally mere bonus - the primary aspect is pace, atmosphere, and a scenario that matches both.

The RLM review is tone-deaf, its description of the opening scene is worthless nonsense, and yet the RT author starts his "counterthesis" by conceding it?

Ah... yes it is? Both are tense and convey / build up the ensuing scenario well.

And yes, it does resemble the ROTJ opening so a direct comparison would be more "precise", I suppose... but then, it's not really clear what RLM think of the Jedi opening (they're ambivalent about the movie), and they should've included that in the review.

It's not a coincidence, the question isn't whether it's coincidence - the question is how meaningful this parallel is, aside from "it's an arrival at a station like ROTJ, so let's make it similar".

He'll, of course, get to that in a second.

That's because they're hacks.


However, why does the RT author begin by saying "TPM's opening lacks ANH's punch", and, after drawing the parallel to ROTJ... forget to add that TPM's is significantly "punchier" than its counterpart?
ROTJ's pace is slower, and the atmosphere is quiet and eerie, as opposed to dangerous and impatient.

This doesn't make it "bland", or bland"er", or less compelling - however, calling TPM's bland by comparison, under these circumstances, appears particularly absurd.






Wait! Damnit! I accidentally the post button, this was meant to be posted much later!!
Now I gotta edit stuff...

Ignore for now...

 

(Editing limit expired)

ODD MAN OUT!

The final shot of ROTJ has nothing to do with the final shot of ROTS - that one resembles another scene from ANH, that takes place in the middle of the first act.



What's happening here?
He's seeing a pattern and, then, wishing it to be complete, pretends the pattern is continuing - no it doesn't?

It couldn't be more obvious that TPM resembles both films at different times, in terms of plot.

However, the ROTJ resemblances are mainly in the last act - the first one roughly resembles ANH, and Tattoine obviously Tattoine.
Then the podrace resembles the speederbikes in looks, and the trench run in structure; the swordfight is modeled after ESB.

So wait, what's with the parallels then?



http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/ring-composition-chiasmus-hidden-artistry-star-wars-prequels/2/

As everybody knows, his effort to keep things consistent with the CT were very successful.

It's only the first 3's setting - same with the politics.

The senate stops mattering after midway through 4 - which could be said to be a negligence on the OT's part, dropping a story element, and not mentioning anything about its aftermath.

This is all obvious and has nothing specifically to do with any "rings" - in fact, that's what conventional storytelling looks like, which the author claimed the Rings were different from.

The "balance of the force" is a never explained, rarely mentioned plot point that is EXCLUSIVE to this trilogy.

While the other things proceed to matter in 4-6, this one does not.

Actually, nothing could be closer to the truth - the villains behind the invasion proceed to join / ally with the separatists, however, as it "turns out" in III, they've continued to be in cahoots with Sidious all this time... and the relation of this new phase to the previous phase, is never explained.

Was Naboo a failed first attempt? Or just the first phase?
Was there an intention behind it, or was Palpatine's election (who just happened to be on it) the only important part of it?

Also, the movie itself already emphasizes the importance of Palpatine's rise - so there is never a disconnect on that side of the story.
This excerpt claims that the Naboo crisis itself appears to be disconnected.... which it does, and is.

It's because he's a child, just like HP, or John Connor, so stuff around him is in a childish tone.

However, parts that aren't connected to him or Jar Jar, don't have a childish tone - instead, it's pretty much the same tone from II.
So, the childish tone isn't an argument for anything larger than "Anakin is a child in this prologue which happens 10 years earlier".

Luke started out good, wasn't a child - neither did he "yippee".

The RT continues to be riddled with sloppy arguments.

Not "interestingly", and not "critics lend support" - it IS a prologue, to this trilogy, in very, very obvious ways:

-Quigon kicks off the Anakin plotline, then dies, passing on the baton to the next generation
-the Sith is killed, and the crisis averted... for now; after laying dormant for 10 years, it'll return in full force, seemingly under a different guise at first.
-the "separatist operation" that actually directly leads to Palpatine seizing power, hasn't begun yet - only its villains are introduced, doing something else

So, it's not "the central plot", focuses on the "previous generation", and ends on a boreboding note about the future - obviously a prologue.

While this isn't entirely true, there's lots of disconnect between I and II/III (between those two as well, but that's another thing) - Quigon almost isn't mentioned, Anakin is redesigned and his dynamic with Obiwan, connection of conspiracy plot to the next conspiracy plot isn't established.

Had those weaknesses of the script been rectified, the prologue would've mattered.

Partially, in the sense of starting off / setting up various things - however, partially not, due to ^^.

Will this essay prove otherwise?

So far, nothing specific to a "ring theory" has been named - it sets up themes and plot points (not always well), and is a prologue (for obvious reasons hardly any of which were named in the "essay").


http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/ring-composition-chiasmus-hidden-artistry-star-wars-prequels/3/

Um... yes it does?

"Two Jedi embark on a mission to save Amidala from Theed Palace."
"Two droids embark on a mission to save Han from Jabba palace,"

Amidala isn't in her palace when she's rescued - they only show signs of wanting to rescue her after, presumably having seen her arrested on the streets, moving in to rescue her.
She's not held captive anywhere for a prolonged period of time.
The Jedi rescue her, the droids are just there as tools/assistants - THE JEDI does the rescuing.

"On the planet of Tattoine, a native named Anakin Skywalker befriends the Jedi and helps them fix the ship."
"On the planet of Endor, the native Ewoks befriend the rebels and help them take them to the shield generator."

"The primitive Gungans join..."
"The primitive Ewoks join..."

The second is a parallel. The first is not.


"There's a great race including podracers"
"There's a great chase involving speederbikes."

The latter isn't "great", it's small. Ewoks don't partake in it, which apparently were a parallel for Anakin????

One half is striking and didn't need pretentious pointing out.
The other half is not even straw grasping.

Anakin's thing on Tattoine clearly resembles Luke in ANH, to a degree - he likens him to the Ewoks instead, just because he helps them with something? Even though the Gungans actually do the thing that resembles the Ewoks?

Placed "firmly"? Really?

So.... does Luke now parallel the Jedi, or the robots? Luke sent the robots, sure... but Valorum sent the Jedi!

Is there supposed to be any structure to this, or are the parallels just there, in a disorganized form?

So does the female protocol droid parallel Bib Fortuna?

There's no structure to any of this so far - just various disjointed references, which are already known.

Who says that phrase at any "end"?

But that's the only "parallel", right?

Palpatine's hologram probably "echoes" Sidious' hologram, to allude that they're the same - and that one takes place earlier than 9min.

They fail with Jabba and fail with Watto - succeed with Nass.

So... Boss Nass is now a Jabba equivalent. Except nothing else is similar.
Boss Nass is a Gungan... Gungans parallel Ewoks... Ewoks parallel Anakin. Makes sense.

But, again, Jabba's palace, the underworld, is Theed now. From which the Jedi never rescued the queen. They led her there however to escape FROM it, just like Han led Luke to the part with the Falcon where they escaped from... so that port was Theed? Or the cave from Hoth?

The monsters don't live underneath the palace.

But the Rancor also has primal appetite?

So there are generators.

It's not like the DC ship's too strong shields are the equivalent of the DS' - no, it's the ones on the Naboo cruiser.

Maul is Sidious now?
But when Sidious appeared as a hologram at first, that was supposed to resemble ESB Sidious, as said in the commentary?


Sidious had been built up from the start - the "first act" was a sidequest/opening adventure, in a way the first act begins after it ends.
Maul isn't built up, he's just escalation, and introducd as a response to the escape from Act 1.

Again, flimsy parallel.
The much less flimsy parallel to ESB, however, is ignored, because it doesn't fit the "ring".

In other words, a random callback disjointed from the context - just like all the previous examples.

Yes... you heard it here first.
The TPM dinner is a parallel to the tribal sacrifice from ROTJ, even though TPM never shows them make dinner, while ROTJ never shows them eat it.

Or too random and otherwise entirely not similar.


Then the podrace/speederbikes are compared, ignoring the podrace also resembling the trench run - and, another major action sequence, the duel, resembling ESB, thereby NOT fitting into the pattern.

Finally Jabba actually parallels Jabba.

Flimsy resemblance - that ROTJ scene is similar to "he's become dangerous" from ROTS, but not to this one.

Anakin's "refusal of the call" here, is, um... well it's the same general beat, but still more similar to ANH than the secne is to ROTJ. Seriously.

It's not her "compassion", she's affected as well! She, all of her people, are attacked, and she looks for HELP!

Luke puts himself in DANGER, to help the VILLAIN!


This isn't even flimsy, this isn't resembling at all.
He's using language to spin this and make it look similar, but even that fails.

Either the intended capture was in service of some alternate plan, or it was always intended to fail in service of getting her to Coruscant - so, in either case, Palpatine doesn't "capture" her, not even symbolically.

He coud've invited her over at any time before the blockade, there just wouldn't be any crisis to solve, or get elected over.

No.

Approximately.

Palpatine sets traps for EVERYONE - there's nothing about her that resembles Luke, in any way shape or form, specifically.

The sun sets on Coruscant - this is mainly tied to the way Coruscant turns from hopeful to depressing as the leads are all blown off or disillusioned; could reflect Palpatine too I guess.

He had to search for him in the previous movie, however... it's not part of the ring though

But.... Maul wasn't gonna bring her to "Palpatine" lmao... aaaaand she was ALREADY on the way to him!

What flaw of compassion??

Yes, the two towers resemble each other - the parallels aside from that are, once again, thin.

It's the Jedi tower, and the Sith tower.... of course the Sith are gonna try to do the opposite. He wants Luke and brought him to him, but the Jedi don't want Anakin who came to them... but... Luke came to Vader, while Anakin came to them direclty.

See? Patterns end pretty quickly.


No, Emperor's scheme isn't "based" "on" 1, it's just based in the same mythology.

And winning it without a hint of becoming evil.

No it's not "her emotions" - she had (gained) the ability to fight, senaet wasn't doing jack, so she made a reasonable decision.

Back then she thought she could rely on the senate.... however, what courses of action were those anyway?

Because he's being tawts honest with Gunray?? He acts surprised there, while already knowing she's returning. Christ.

More foolish? Turned out it wasn't, since she won.

Wow.

So, if the emotions hadn't clouded her judgement, she wouldn't have forgotten that Palpatine=Sidious and is evil??
And that teaches Palpatine how people can act rash out of emotions... not becoming evil?

Seems like the RT author doesn't get the basic plot.

So her coming back to Naboo after he'd already won the election, was his nefarious purpose?

Oh, wait, no, he already manipulated her using her fear and compassion (except reasonable ones), so he already knew, and hence didn't just "learn" it.

Guess not, then.

Hard to miss as in, actually non-random.

That part resembles Jedi, the rest of the duel resembles Empire.

So.... whenever TPM resembles ANH, it's "let's bring up parallels later", when it resembles ROTJ it's "chiasm", and when it resembles ESB it isn't mentioned.

Gungan army wasn't deliberate.
Anakin didn't get "disarmed".

Padme primarily got captured, not disarmed.

That happens all the time in movies like Star Wars, however, Anakin doesn't disarm anything while Han does "disarm" the station.

I-III are about a conspiracy masterplan that leaves the protagonists in the dark until the last moment.
V and VI are too, with separate masterplans.

They don't learn about the conspiracy at the end of I, because they're not planned to, and there's no leads.

The victory isn't accidental - only Anakin's is accidental, because it was done for comedy, and meaningless, because it only saves the gungans.

Real victory, aparently, can only be achieved once the villains have revelaed all their masterplans to you and you managed to thwart them - note how "compassion" couldn't have done that in III, or any of those other things.

??????????????????????????????????

This matches the overall structure here, which is that Anakin's "lowest point" ends here, leading to victory - the climactic end of the battle (the fact that it's not the most important is kind of eh).
Then, Obiwan gets out of his lowest point to give the whole thing a quiet, melancholic resolution, leading into the epilogue.

There's like evil drums playing when Anakin overheats, leading into the duel - so why wouldn't there also be green red lights for moar atmosphere?

The parallel with "disarmament" is flimsy, especially given the meaninglessness of everything that happens with Anakin, due to "creative choice".

It's called a "ring" theory for a reason - however, there was no vomit in ROTJ.

Uh... yea no.

Lots of random parallels to 4 and 6, some to 5 - no pattern between them visible, or explained.
A parallels X, but then it parallels Y, and Y parallels C. Everything is disorganized, random, and a lot is flimsy and made up.

No "complex" "correspondences", just random and spontaneous.


No "requirements" have been met for anything.
And he gets the actual plot wrong all the time too - apparently can't understand that Sidious doesn't tell the Neimoidians that he's Palpatine, or that Padme has no way of knowing it.

Nice, but it would've been quite okay for a "brilliant, and this truly deserves the term brilliant, master narrative" to actually include that in its... narrative, instead of forgetting about it after one line.


____________________

F-

While the author makes a huge fuss about extremely obvious discoveries, such as Gungans=Ewoks - he provides some value by finding various little resemblances and similar shots, which is neat by itself.


However, he fails to bring those into ANY kind of coherent structure - confirming, in his hapless descriptions, that these are all just quite random, while he, at the end of this part, seems to think he's uncovered some intricate "complex" pattern.


















EDIT: Alright formatting got screwed first time - paragraphs disappeared etc., had to reconstruct and paste again from word file.

Pretty sure all the formatting issues are gone - so if there are any issues, it ain't my fault

 

Have seen the HelloGreedo review of the ring theory?

 

Never heard of it... what's it like?

 

Oh... and where is it?
lol

 

Here's the hello Greedo review:

He doesn't really go into it in all that much depth imo, mostly just talking around it.

2K-D2 I agree with many of your criticisms, especially of Klimo's interpretation of that opening scene of TPM. And the theory as a whole doesn't really seem to hold up all that well when you probe at it a bit, such as that gungans = ewoks = Anakin(?!). But at the same time I don't think he's wrong that episodes 1/3/4/6 intentionally mirror each other the most while 2/5 mostly mirror each other. Or that 2 is an inverse of 5, and in some ways 3 of 4. And some of the shot comparisons are pretty convincing (such as the shot from behind the chairs of the pilots approaching a forest/metal planetoid at the beginnings of 1/6, or the similarities between the rancor and the mammalian-looking sea beast). I think it's in those visual comparisons that the ring theory is most convincing, more so than the structural similarities that Klimo tries (sometimes less successfully) to draw. But do these visual references really support a chiastic structure, or is it just cherry picking the ones that fjt with that preconceived notion? Well, I don't really see a lot of ESB parallels in TPM, except arghable the pits in the duel, but even the design of that pit is closer to the one from ROTJ. Whereas 2 has a lot of references to 5. So I don't think the references are random, but I don't know that Lucas was specifically going for a chiastic structure, either. It's possible he simply continued the pattern that happened.in the OT, with ESB being a deliberate departure and inversion of 4 while 6 was a return to 4. Then again, maybe it was deliberately set up as a chiastic structure--I'm not sure.

 

While one among many (less notable?) resources for finding various parallels/similarities/allusions between the movies, RT can certainly be valued for that aspect - I kinda said as much.
Some of them are extremely reaching, others dead obvious, but a lot of cool stuff in the middle.

All in all, I'm not saying all of it is arbitrary or unjustified - there may very well be some more intervowen structure to it, but, as you said, RT is trying too hard to squeeze it all into its "chiasm", and doesn't seem to be aware that citing a bunch of interrelation doesn't automatically mean it's "complex and intricate", but may very well be chaotic and random.

Also, got the plot wrong, literally, when he talked about Padme and Palpatine/Sidious there.




Eh - I wanted to go through the rest and then maybe see if I can make sense of the "mirrors" myself; kinda tired after yesterday tho atm

 

Good analysis! People see patterns in random events all the time, but never more so, if they want to see them.

 

I don't think that, when so many shots and scenes mirror each other in the PT and in the OT, it could only be accidental and therefore refutes the idea that there's some kind of pattern between the two trilogies... People can see patterns if they want to and if they go watch the movie only for this purpose. But it doesn't mean that there can't be some...

 

There certainly are mirroring shots, but there's a difference between a number callbacks, and similarities, and a large over-arching structure. As 2K-2D argued, there exist many similarities between the PT and OT films, that fall outside of the scope of a ring theory. So, I while GL certainly used mirroring, the evidence for a ring composition is unconvincing IMO.