Rumor A Perspective on How Rumours Play Out

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by AL, Oct 28, 2013.

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  1. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    I actually do agree with this perspective, and I totally get where AL was coming from when he said it was thematically correct. For a long time I didn't read post-ROTJ EU because I wanted to maintain my own personal vision of where those characters' stories would lead, and Luke having children never quite jibed with that (along with everything else in the EU, but that's another subject). So I guess I'll just have to reconcile the fact that the end of ROTJ did actually paint the characters into a corner where there is no real way to proceed with new movies without making certain concessions, and that what's best for this story moving forward may not be exactly what it would be if Lucas had made more concrete plans for it when writing ROTJ.
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  2. Darth PJ Force Ghost

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    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I think the ending of ROTS is pretty perfect... I think the whole Vader bit is a little rushed (as in left for dead on Mustafar, rescued and re-built) but in essence I really love the montage/non-dialogue approach Lucas took with the last couple of minutes. Classic IMHO.
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  3. Frank_TJ_Mackey Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 6, 2000
    star 4
    I beg to differ.....yes the montage was well done....but not effective. Well done is a stretch...since the whole "I remember my mother" was done poorly.....and Padme dying while giving birth because she lost the will to live was terrible. As a father of 2, I can't understand that a writer can put those words in the mouth of a character.

    Those scenes should have ate 20-25 minutes.....not vignettes through a montage.
    Last edited by Frank_TJ_Mackey, Oct 28, 2013
  4. Fjw1970 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2013
    star 1
    If these script changes are true and they are focusing on an established character then it has to be Luke. Maybe Luke will be more of a Qui-Gon like character in Ep I than an Obi-won in Ep IV.

    Then the torch could be passed to his kid for episodes 8 and 9.
    Last edited by Fjw1970, Oct 28, 2013
  5. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
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    I think that's more than a fair point. If, while making Episode VI, Lucas had intended to continue the tale any further on in the timeline, I think there's every chance he would have wound up shaping some of ROTJ differently from the manner he ultimately did. The end result would almost certainly have differed in important ways.
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  6. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I thought it was very effective... Padme dead, Luke on Tatooine, Leia on Alderaan and Vader in his suit at his Masters side. Pretty much exactly where it needed to be. Of course, they could have made an entire film purely out of Anakin's physical transformation into Vader... but I don't think that was ever going to happen.
  7. Dewback Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 1998
    star 3
    I like that, and maybe a young Solo will be more like a young Obi-Wan type, leading some younger Jedi. After all, if Leia and Han did indeed have children together they would be Skywalkers. I don't understand why everyone is being so dismissive of that fact.
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  8. rezpen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2010
    star 4
    Hehe I know what you are talking about. I'll put it this way, in the original idea something happened where it became necessary for the new leads to find a character who would not appear till nearly the end of the film. JJ was not the only person not happy about this cause I've heard it from others. From my point of view I would prefer the main focus of the movies be new characters, but Disney may want to pace themselves before slowly fading out the OT cast since we are not just talking about 3 more Episode films anymore but who knows how many it could continue on forever. This might also tie into Jedinews rumor about an "arc" for Han Solo over 3 additional films and a greater emphasis on the OT cast overall in 7-9. Since JJ seems so into nostalgia I can also see how the idea would appeal to him.

    One more thing about people saying these movies will be about Skywalkers over Solos to me any kid of Leia is as much of the Skywalker bloodline as Luke's there is no reason to think Leia's kids wouldn't be as strong in the force as Luke's.
  9. TheStorm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2002
    star 4
    It has nothing to do with "Force strength" it just makes a better story for passing down the torch from Father to child. rather then Uncle to nephew/niece. It's a powerful emotional thing that happens lots of mythology (something I'm sure Lucas would agree with). But Lucas did want this to follow the Skywalker line (the main Episodes) and after thinking about it I think it works better with Luke. That and most would agree I want Luke over Han any day of the week for the "mentor" role. Luke needs to pass down everything, not Han.

    The weird thing is before the PT I always imagined most Jedi got married because it seemed like that in the OT. But even after the PT I would say Luke probably realizes that that "rule" did not really do much and in the end I think Anakin's true downfall was "HE" did not want to die, not so much others that he loved. It's why he clung to life so hard in a terrible uncomfortable suit lol. But it seems regardless of what draft Lucas wanted this to be about the next generation of Skywalker/Solo it seems that possibly JJ just shifted it to Luke more so than Han. Which I fully agree with.

    I think JJ is not "into" pure nostalgia, it was clear from the get go that the ST included the big three passing down to the next generation.
    Last edited by TheStorm, Oct 28, 2013
  10. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

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    Sep 15, 2010
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    I don't think I've seen anybody who has been dismissive of that. Everybody already knows that they would be Skywalkers, too. To any thinking, rational adult, it goes without saying.

    The point I and some others have made is that there's a certain narrative harmony to having the story follow along a direct lineage from Anakin to Luke to child of Luke. That much is undeniable.

    Whether that's the story person A or person B would most like to see is a matter of opinion, and I made sure to point out that I'm well aware that other's mileage may vary.
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  11. Frank_TJ_Mackey Chosen One

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    Dec 6, 2000
    star 4
    Sorry, i can't not understand anyone who buys the "I lost the will to live" scene.

    How can mother think like that, while giving birth, especially in a SW movie (where family is so important) ?

    Sorry Darth PJ, I can't understand how you can appreciate a scene like that. Its so emotionally wrong....
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  12. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    I don't think Han should be passing much of anything down either, but I'm a little disturbed by how male-centric some of the views are around here. Not saying you specifically, but I just see a lot of people who seem to regard Leia as a non-factor in all of this when at this point she should easily be every bit the Jedi that Luke is. Yoda told Luke to pass on what he had learned and immediately followed up with "there is another Skywalker", so obviously Luke would have taught Leia first and foremost, and she would have been perfectly capable of training other Jedi after that.
    Last edited by Mystery_Roach, Oct 28, 2013
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  13. TheStorm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2002
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    But you are jumping to many assumptions. First, that Leia...does she want to be a Jedi? She was more of a politician, and that does not mean she wanted to do it. Could be a part of it as well, where she does not want to end up like Vader, and afraid of the temptations says no to it. So Luke has to continue it on through other ways. It's not "male centric" I'm still hoping the main is a new female lead, but the fact of the matter is all of the history/Sith Vs Jedi stuff and experience was all with Luke, the main character of the OT. Not Leia. She was not as important in that regard. Now I'm sure she will have children and they may take on the lightsaber as well. But there is no reason for Luke "not" to have kids. After talking with a close friend about it, he and I kinda agreed that it's not weird for Luke to have a child, he seemed to view things much different then the old Jedi Order. He completely dis-obeyed Yoda in ESB to save those he loved and was attached to (which was a giant no no back in the day) and yet he did not turn to the Dark Side and still over came everything with the ability to have those he loved and cared about. Honestly I just never felt that Leia was the type that wanted to be a Jedi, she was a warrior, but also a politician, that was her arena.
  14. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    Agree. I never got the folks who say "the PT showed that Jedi cannot have children, so this means no kids for Luke," but then go on to say "Han and Leia's kids can be the new Jedi."

    They seem so quick to forget that Leia should be a trained Jedi by this point, too.

    Personally, I think I'd rather Leia be more "Jedi Consular" than "Jedi Guardian." Not that she shouldn't wield a lightsaber at all, rather, in keeping with her OT portrayal, I see her strengths more akin to Force-powered persuasion (perhaps in the political arena), and intuition (a la her rescue of Luke at the end of TESB).
    Last edited by Trebor Sabreon, Oct 28, 2013
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  15. Krueger Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2004
    star 4
    Focusing more on Luke is good, IMO. Hamill is a very lucky guy. I just feel lukewarm on the whole Ewan back as Obi-Wan thing. Why would his ghost all of a sudden be younger? I know AL said the tests for a CGI enhanced Guinness looked pants, but surely in this day and age they can pull something like that off?

    If all these actors are coming back I will be shocked if Hayden doesn’t also return. I think a scene with him and Luke together could be the stuff of legend.
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  16. rezpen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2010
    star 4
    Yes exactly, it's not like Anakin trained Luke the important thing he passed on to Luke and Leia equally was the bloodline. If Luke trains Leia's daughter as the main Jedi focus of the ST it's perfectly in keeping with the mythology that's come before. Nothing to do with Han either way. And let's face it the important character in all of this is not even Luke, it's Anakin the Chosen One.
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  17. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    Agree with most all of this, except to say I love Ewan so much as Kenobi that I'll take it. Give him some make-up or explain away the younger look.

    I mean, we cannot have the great Sir Alec, so short of writing Obi-Wan out completely, what would be the alternative? A GCI'd Ben that looked "pants" (love that phrase)? Nah, I'll just take Ewan, thank you. :)
    Last edited by Trebor Sabreon, Oct 28, 2013
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  18. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    First of all, I don't think it's that big of an assumption to think that Luke would have trained Leia after Yoda told him to on his death bed. After all, Obi-Wan trained Anakin for the same reason, and I see no reason why Leia would have then resisted those Jedi teachings. After all, she sure didn't make a fuss when Luke told her that she had the same power he did and in time would learn to use it as well.

    Secondly, she may not have been as important as Luke in the OT, but that's because it wasn't decided she was his sister until the writing of ROTJ, and in retrospect I think it's a huge misstep when you put the saga together in order. She really should have been every bit as important as Luke, and the ST would be a good opportunity to rectify that mistake.

    As for Luke having children, I quite agree that there must be a reevaluation of the Jedi Code in the new Order, allowing for that sort of thing. Obviously I feel that way if I'm arguing for Leia to be a Jedi while having a family as well. My point was simply one of not liking the notion of Luke suddenly having children when we've never even seen him have a love interest other than his sister, but I've already covered why I feel that way in previous posts.

    Last edited by Mystery_Roach, Oct 28, 2013
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  19. Mystery Roach Chosen One

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    Mar 10, 2004
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    Edit: Double Post
    Last edited by Mystery_Roach, Oct 28, 2013
  20. TheStorm Force Ghost

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    Apr 8, 2002
    star 4

    Well just because we did not see "love" interest before hand does not mean he can't have one. That is not important. When the OT just existed, I had no problem (sometimes I still wish it was just the OT :p) that I had no idea about Vader's wife. Just because I did not see him "in love" on screen did not take away that I imagined he loved his wife prior to the OT (and I did...probably better then Lucas executed it later on). Luke is a human that can love, he was 23 years old, I doubt that means anywhere (and actually it sounds rather odd in some ways) that he just said: "Well I have not met anyone yet, therefore I'm forever alone" 23 is young. As for the other thing the deal with the "misstep" of Leia in the OT as a sister was because she was not the sister it was originally Nellith, a completely different character.

    But another point is I just don't want every character to be a lightsaber wielding Jedi like the PT. I want some variety to a point. Of course we have to have Luke and a few others be new Jedi/Old Jedi. But maybe Leia is trained but that does not mean he cannot have children as well. Maybe it's the Skywalker curse of wanting to have kids lol.
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  21. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    Because I accept that it's primarily a fairytale and Lucas uses fairytale type conceits to tell stories. I don't naturally gravitate towards the whole "died from a broken heart" thing myself... but it's not like the little medical droid is gonna say "she's died from internal haemorrhaging" or "her bowel is ruptured and she's **** herself to death". Saying that - I acknowledge that ROTS actually contains decapitation/incineration and other grizzly things... and one may shout "double standards". However, having some insight into how these things work, I think depicting Padme's death in a more realistic sense would cross that fantasy/fairytale boundary and would probably be seen as 'distasteful'. A "broken heart" is a bit of a cop out I agree, but it's a lot less problematic in terms of ratings/censorship etc. ;)
  22. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Oct 31, 2012
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    I'm okay with the focus of the film being shifted from Solo children to Skywalker children as long as the lead is the next generation character and not Luke. Other than that though I'd be quite pleased if they gave Luke a three film arc instead of killing him off in Episode VII. It's been my hope since the announcement of the ST that Luke would serve as the "good father" and mentor throughout the trilogy just as Vader served as the "bad father" and corrupter throughout the OT. It'll also be very interesting to see what type of woman Luke would fall in love with and decide to raise a family with. I'd actually prefer it if she wasn't a Jedi and instead had her own career. I can't remember who suggested it in the thread about Luke's wife but I like the idea of her being a medic. It's a career we haven't seen yet in the films and she could have a part in the end battle that doesn't involve another lightsaber or fighter.

    Anyway, I'm ranting now but I think it could be very fascinating to see. :D
  23. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
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    Heck, I'm a huge fan of the Prequels as well as the SEs, but sometimes I still wish it was just the OT also. However there's no going back now. You can't stop the change yada yada yada.

    Anyway, yeah that was the point I was making about the misstep of Leia not being as important because she wasn't originally supposed to be Luke's sister, which is why I thought the ST would be a perfect opportunity for her importance as a Skywalker to finally be realized.

    And I have no problem with every character not being a Jedi, and there should be room for that not to be the case. For that matter, there's no reason for every main character to be related either. However, I'm trying my best to brace myself for the inevitable (figurative) clone of Han Solo, whether it be male or female, because this is not something I'm interested in one bit. One of him is bad enough, but people love him and wanted someone like him in the PT, so I have no doubt that we will get exactly that in the ST now.
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  24. jedilips Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 1
    We all know how much JJ loves his daddy issues - and what better issues to put on display than Luke still dealing with who his father was while simultaneously serving as a father figure elsewhere. Could be epic good stuff.
    Last edited by jedilips, Oct 28, 2013
  25. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
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    Has this been a recurring theme in J.J.'s work? Because if you just mean LOST, I wonder how much of that was Lindeloff, since it was something that carried so heavily throughout the entire run of the series.
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