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A prime piece of real estate?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by lavo, Sep 4, 2006.

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  1. lavo

    lavo Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2006
    We know the insidious nature of Palpitine to be patience, malevolence and corruption, whose greatest Sith gift was surely his ability to mask such a strong dark-side presence and, like a lot of villains, he was most maniacal whilst appearing to be good, providing safety, security and a solution to war. The strength he displayed throughout the saga began not with a light-saber or blaster but the slow and often backwards grind of bureaucracy which he masterfully manipulated. Every step of Palpatine's plan was pre-cursored by law. This dedication to legality indicates how far-reaching his control was, how sophisticated his power. If we think of our own history, archivists often uncover breathtaking levels of detail in the running of an empire or army where there is scarcely a single aspect of military life that is not covered and recorded.

    An invading army claims by rite of victory, ownership of lands and so on, it has happened thought history and has a deep grounding in law; we all know the examples of territorial disputes like Palestine and Northern Ireland, my point is this idea of power backed up in the first instance by law and secondly by force, thereby every conceivable occurrence is covered.

    When the Jedi were declared traitors their temple was overrun. If we accept that no Jedi were left alive, we have to assume that custody, if not ownership, of the temple passed to someone. I am sure the legal status of the building and its ownership was covered in the Emperors plans given that he had prepared for everything else. What we do know is that buildings on Corescant are really buildings on top of buildings, what is less clear is whether they ultimately regress downward to a planetary crust upon which they are built, or simply emerge in the opposing hemisphere. If we assume the former then it is possible that beneath the jedi temple could be any number of things, an apartment building or bank, or possibly the Jedi own the entire structure. The size and composition of the building aren't important for the purposes of this discussion since what I want to deal with is the structure, captured on screen and generally accepted as being "The Jedi Temple", owned by the Jedi.

    This may be very boring but my point is: as the natural successor to the Jedi, Luke Skywalker has a legitimate claim to the ownership of one of the most prominent structures on all of Corescant, not only as symbolic inheritor, but due to his direct bloodline and by rite of victory (please don't post about the actual killer of the emperor, this is just a point of discussion). I am sure, as with all things, the status of Jedi (Knight or Master) carries with it legal recognition and responsibility and I am sure Luke would have a valid claim in this regard.
     
  2. Jedsithor

    Jedsithor Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2005
    the Jedi temple would have been declared as an Imperial building during the reign of palpatine, owned and operated (or left to rot) by the Empire. With the Emperor defeated in ROTJ (not including EU, strictly movies for this post) the Temple would have come under the control of the newly restored Republic.

    The republic may have their own uses for the Temple, but looking at the Jedi claim, there are a few factors to be considered:

    1. Luke Skywalker ma be a Jedi Knight, but thee is no Jedi Order anymore. The Republic may be reluctant to hand a historical monument over to one man.

    2. People in the Republic may feel that the Jedi are the ones responsible for the rise of the Empire and may not want to see a new Jedi Order.

    3. Even in a restored Republic there will still be some who preferred life under the Empire and they may seek to destroy anything that would lead the galaxy back to old times.

    4. If Luke was allowed to take control of the Temple, it just wouldn't be practical to stay there in the early years. After all he has to start from scratch and search the galaxy for potential Jedi. The Temple would be empty.

    5. i don't think Luke can afford the utility bills..
     
  3. LORDVIGILANCE

    LORDVIGILANCE Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Jun 11, 2005
    Its entirely possible that, like others have said, the Jedi Temple fell under the jurisdiction of the Imperial government shortly after the raid by Darth Vader and the 501st Legion. The Temple and the surrounding district were what Palpatine wanted them to be. However, we have no idea what that was since we don't have a definitive answer as to what the Temple was or wasn't transformed into.

    But I'm not quite sure where your logic comes from regarding the inheritance of the Temple. I mean I understand what your saying, I just don't think that's how things go. Your saying that since Luke Skywalker is a Jedi Knight, he is technically heir to the Jedi Temple Complex because his father was second in command of the Imperial government? [face_thinking]

    Sure, Luke may have asked to reclaim the Jedi Temple in honor of the Jedi after Coruscant was conquered by the New Republic, but the Temple was not his to claim by himself just because he calls himself a Jedi Knight.
     
  4. _Sublime_Skywalker_

    _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 2004
    Luke also technically has the right to the Empire if he wishes so. Remember from KOTOR, only the strongest rules, so they find the strongest and whoever kills them is the strongest. But Luke is quite a simple jedi, he doesn't need the Imperial Palace, he doesn't need an entire Galaxy. He's a jedi, like his father before him.

    Plus, as long as the Rebellions doing ok, Luke's pretty well off. He's like the Paris Hilton of the Rebellion, he gets free stays at hotels, food and beverages on tap, and he's like a bloody celebrity in star wars. Imagine..the man who slayed the Empire. Ooooh Aaaaah!
     
  5. LORDVIGILANCE

    LORDVIGILANCE Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Jun 11, 2005
    How? I'm confused on how Luke Skywalker has the right to rule the Galactic Empire. Who slayed the Empire? As far as my information progresses in the EU, the Galactic Empire is fine and well and ruled by a new Sith Lord.
     
  6. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 29, 2000
    That's the EU. ;)

    Anyway, Luke has the right to rule the Empire by hereditary means from being Lord Vader's son. If you read Dark Empire, it's clear that Palpatine's intention was for the Skywalkers to be a sort of royal bloodline of Sith.

    Palpatine: Emperor.

    Vader: Second in chain of command.

    Luke: Vader's son, and presumably hoped-for replacement for Vader by Palps.

    Ergo, if anyone does have the right to be Emperor, it's Luke.
     
  7. LORDVIGILANCE

    LORDVIGILANCE Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Jun 11, 2005
    Technically. The Galactic Empire belonged to Darth Sidious and Darth Sidious alone, Darth Vader was merely another lackey in the Imperial court. Palpatine could have replaced Vader at any time therefore voiding Luke's claim to rule anything. Correct?

    Ok. So does Luke still have the claim to rule the Galactic Empire? Even though Darth Vader and Darth Sidious are long dead? Could Luke Skywalker, along with being the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, claim ownership to rule the Empire still? I don't think so. It was Palpatine's Empire first. Not Darth Vader's. His claim would be useless if Palpatine didn't agree to it first. Just because family is involved in something doesn't give you an automatic claim to rule.
     
  8. lavo

    lavo Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2006
    ^^"Just because family is involved in something doesn't give you an automatic claim to rule."

    Actually it does, as a matter of legality, which is my point.
     
  9. LORDVIGILANCE

    LORDVIGILANCE Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Jun 11, 2005
    How so? All your basically saying is that Luke Skywalker has a right to everything because he was Darth Vader's son. What about Leia? Han? Mara Jade? The Solo twins? Ben Skywalker? They're all related to Darth Vader in some fashion, why aren't they running the Galactic Empire or demanding the rights to the old Jedi Temple? That would be exactly like a cousin of our own President Bush claiming the right to rule the United States becase he's family. Sorry. Things don't work like that in our government.

    You speak as if Darth Vader and the Galactic Empire are one and the same. They're not by any stretch of means. Emperor Palpatine was the Galactic Empire plain and simple. His rules and laws were absolute. As a matter of legailty, Luke dismissed any chance to rule the Galactic Empire when he joined in open rebellion against Darth Vader and the Emperor therefore, voiding his right to rule legally because he was a traitor. However, Darth Vader died at the hands of the Emperor, taking Luke's "hereditary claim" with him.
     
  10. Jedsithor

    Jedsithor Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 1, 2005
    Well in the movies, the Empire begins and ends with Sidious. He was the one given the power by the Senate, not Vader. Now it is conceivable that Palpatine could have openly declared Vader to be his successor and it could be argued that since Luke is Vader's son, Luke wold have a right to claim the throne. Except for one thing...

    Darth Vader's identity was the most kept secret in the galaxy. Nobody knew that Anakin Skywalker was Darth Vader and the only evidence was destroyed when Luke burned his father's body. There is only one way Luke could become Emperor, and that would be to declare himself a Jedi Knight and take control of the New Republic while the Senate is being reformed and Palpatine's rule was being dismantled, kinda like what the Jedi were planning to do in ROTS. But even then, without the support of the new Senate, he couldn't become following the transition.
     
  11. lavo

    lavo Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2006
    "All your basically saying is that Luke Skywalker has a right to everything because he was Darth Vader's son. "

    Except I'm not. You're ignoring the first three paragraphs of my post. I'm talking about the legality of the siezure of property by the state and the legality of any claim made upon it. I believe Luke Skywalker has a claim, not necessarily to him personally, but certainly to a transfer of the property out the juristiction of the state.

    "What about Leia? Han? Mara Jade? The Solo twins? Ben Skywalker?"

    That's a matter for the EU.
     
  12. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 29, 2000
    So long as we're bringing EU into this, it's fact that Vader was 2nd in command of the Empire in the EU, as well as the commander of the military (although that's fairly obvious in TESB and ROTJ).

    If Vader's plans had succeeded, or alternately, if Palpatine's plans had succeeded, Luke would have been the Sith Apprentice, and as such, #2 in the Imperial chain of command.

    As for all those *other* people..

    Mara: She's an assassin. Vader treats her like dirt. She doesn't even officially exist in the Empire-everyone thinks she's a concubine of the Emperor, for the love of crumbcake.

    Leia-Vader's daughter, although never offered any actual rank of significance in the Empire. If she became Luke's apprentice, or Vader's, then she'd be a shoo-in.

    Now, assuming that Luke in fact had children as a Sith and #2 of the Empire (seems unlikely; marriages seem to be beyond Sith Lords) and that he overthrew whoever he was working for and trained up the kid as his second in command, then, yes, Ben would eventually be the Emperor.
     
  13. LORDVIGILANCE

    LORDVIGILANCE Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Jun 11, 2005
    Well, back to the main point then. Honestly. I don't think it would be legal or appropriate for Luke to seize the Jedi Temple Complex just because he's a Jedi Knight. Now, if he had the approval and authorization from the New Republic Senate to begin restoring the Complex, then I believe he would have all the rights to restore the sector to its former glory.

    Even though it may not have been legal if he had begun restoration without approval, I think Luke would be bound by his obligations to help restore one of the principle symbols of the Old Jedi Order.
     
  14. DARTH_MARK-22

    DARTH_MARK-22 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 11, 2003
    "I will make it legal."
    --Darth Sidious

    'm jus' sayin' ... [face_monkey]
     
  15. lavo

    lavo Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Well, back to the main point then. Honestly. I don't think it would be legal or appropriate for Luke to seize the Jedi Temple Complex just because he's a Jedi Knight. Now, if he had the approval and authorization from the New Republic Senate to begin restoring the Complex, then I believe he would have all the rights to restore the sector to its former glory.

    Even though it may not have been legal if he had begun restoration without approval, I think Luke would be bound by his obligations to help restore one of the principle symbols of the Old Jedi Order.
    [/quote]

    Yes. I think you and I are in agreement here and perhaps I should have made my post clearer in relation to Luke, although I find the idea of Luke going into the temple after the 'Battle of Endor', telling everyone he found there to get out, that these were his digs and then getting onto the holo phone to the old gang back on Tatooine: "Dude, you should see my digs now man, it's like woah, seriously, party time at the Lukester's". quite funny
     
  16. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 29, 2000
    Yes. I think you and I are in agreement here and perhaps I should have made my post clearer in relation to Luke, although I find the idea of Luke going into the temple after the 'Battle of Endor', telling everyone he found there to get out, that these were his digs and then getting onto the holo phone to the old gang back on Tatooine: "Dude, you should see my digs now man, it's like woah, seriously, party time at the Lukester's". quite funny[/quote]

    lol, yup.

    I was quite suprised that Luke decided to move the Order into the old Jedi Temple, as is the case now. I mean, the place was the site of arguably the greatest triumph of the Sith.

    Maybe it's supposed to be an object lesson? "feel how all these Jedi once died, and think about why."?
     
  17. LORDVIGILANCE

    LORDVIGILANCE Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Jun 11, 2005
    Well, the old Jedi Temple was destroyed before Luke could ever visit it. But I did find it weird that Luke would accept the new Jedi Temple's construction over the well-spring of Force energy that was tainted with the Dark Side by Lord Nyax.

    Gotta love the EU! :rolleyes:

    Yes, Palpatine and Darth Vader may have crippled the Jedi Order, but they came back stronger then ever. Maybe we could see it as a stick from Luke to Palpatine though. You know like...who's laughing like a crazy homeless guy now?
     
  18. DS615

    DS615 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2003
    The missing point here is, whith what would Luke cliam the temple?
    Who knows that he is a Jedi Knight? Yoda, Vader, and Palpatine. They're dead and can't testify.
    So now, the only way anyone in the galaxy knows Luke is a Jedi is because he says so, and that's not good enough. He has no proof, so he has no temple.

    As for ruling the Republic; He doesn't want to, and more importantly, the people would be loath to accept a new dictator even if he is nice. Him having Force powers puts him right out.

    That, of course, is assuming the happy fairytale ending GL wanted. The reality is that the Regional Governors no longer answer to anyone but themselves, and they still have complete control. The rebellion didn't free the galaxy, they unleashed a civil war of a size and scope that would make the Clone Wars look like a Tatooine bar fight.

     
  19. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 29, 2000
    Unfortunately, the "happy fairy-tale ending" *is* the reality. Not EU, and not your fanon.
     
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    It's simple. Going by the films, the Alliance would become the Republic again. And they would say nothing about Luke moving into the Temple and restarting the Jedi Order. This would happen not because of his relation or anything, but simply because he is a Jedi and the Temple goes to him since there are no other active Jedi.
     
  21. Callina

    Callina Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 15, 2005
    Even if Luke could reclaim the Jedi Temple, it wouldn't be very practical. It was made to be the headquarters of the Order as well as the home of thousands of Jedi. Living space for ten thousand Knights and Masters, various Padawans and younglings; enormous facilities; office space to conduct all the business of the Order - it all adds up to a huge amount of space. Most of it would go unused. But the upkeep (to say nothing of repairs) would be costly. What Luke invested in the building and what use he got out of it would be quite disproportinate.

    Doubtless the Temple belonged to the Empire after it was taken from the Jedi. I don't know how Palpatine dealt with the home of his conquered enemies. I have this fantasy that the Temple was deserted all through Palpatine's reign - with rumors abounding that it was haunted by the murdered Jedi - the Temple's atmosphere thick with the long presence and terrible deaths of the Jedi so that even non-Force sensitives could feel it. But that's just my take.
     
  22. DS615

    DS615 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 30, 2003
    And how would the restored Senate know he's a Jedi? Just because he says so?
    My Nephew says he's a Jedi too. So you're saying the Senate will just let him have the building? Facinating.

    Oh, and by the way, the Rebellion becoming the New Republic is EU only. Nothing in the films even suggests that that's the plan.

     
  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I never called it the New Republic. I just called it the Republic. I highly doubt that Lucas would've kept them as the Rebel Allaince forever, since there is nothing to rebel against anymore. The Empire is defeated and everyone surrendered. Either way, everyone in the Alliance knows Luke is a Jedi. He blew up the Death Star when no one else could. He was trained by Obi-wan Kenobi, before the Negoitator's death. Han, Lando, Leia, Wedge, Chewbacca and the droids are witness to his abilities. Ackbar, Mon Mothma, Madine, Dodonna, Rikeen and others in the Alliance's military command structure can vouch for who Luke is. And if they need a demonstration, a simple use of the Force to levitate an object would suffice. Using the mind trick on someone. Etc. Unlike your nephew, who cannot do that.
     
  24. LORDVIGILANCE

    LORDVIGILANCE Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Jun 11, 2005
    Wasn't it common knowledge by the Battle of Hoth that Darth Vader had indeed been Anakin Skywalker? Don't you think that the populace, even the New Republic Senate in question, would be hesitant to hand over an entire district on Coruscant capable of training individuals as powerful as the late Darth Vader?

    Besides, in the public's eyes, is being trained by Obi-Wan Kenobi something Luke wants thrown around? He and Leia have already been questioned on their loyalties because of their father's legacy, granted those insults were hurled by corrupt Senators. Of course, we have many individuals who can vouch one-hundred percent on Luke's Jedi Knight authority, but if we're going to argue about the legality of the Republic Senate, then we have a thousand plus Senators that need to be convinced that Luke Skywalker, son to the hero of the Clone Wars, will not follow in his father's footsteps and become the next Darth Vader.
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Obviously not, otherwise Leia wouldn't be so ignorant or shocked by the revelation Luke made that they were both related to Vader. According to the expanded universe, Anakin Skywalker was killed in the Jedi Temple raid. Darth Vader emerged one month later as the Emperor's new assistant and later, became known as his enforcer. In the films alone only Obi-wan, Yoda, Palpatine and possibly Tarkin knew. In the eu, several others did know.

    In the eu, the Temple was trashed by the time the New Republic took control. Ysane Isard has most likely destroyed it when she flew by in Luskyanka (sp) on her way out of Coruscant. Luke visited the Temple to find what was left, which wasn't much. After the Empire Reborn crisis, the Senate under Mon Mothma gave Luke permission to start up his own Temple/Praxeum on a world of his choosing. Which came to be Yavin 4. After the Vong war, he moved to Ossus which had been the Jedi home before the Temple on Coruscant. The Galactic Alliance built a new Jedi Temple on the remains of the old, but it was used sparingly until Kol Skywalker and his Jedi opted to abandon it, when the Sith returned and forged an alliance with the newly reborn Empire under Emperor Roan Fel. They were still on Ossus three years later, when the Ossus massacare took place. Now they're scattered again.

    In the films, the Senate would trust Luke as he was a Jedi and the Jedi had once been trustworthy until the Sith manipulated them. Long before ANH, the Alliance had complete trust in the Jedi again, thanks to Bail Organa. Bail, Mon Mothma and the Alliance high command had agreed that the situation required the return of Master Kenobi and Master Yoda. He was going to go pick them up, but was unable to and thus he sent Leia to get Obi-wan. If necessary, Obi-wan could or would decide to pick up Yoda. Obi-wan, as we know, opted to wait and instead head to Alderaan with Luke. Anyway, the Jedi are trustworthy once more.

    Faith is important in all things. If there is no faith, then the Republic would die again as it had before.
     
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