A problem with NJO Jedi Morality

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth_Hospodar, Aug 1, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Darth_Hospodar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2000
    star 3
    I'll keep this concise, to allow for more discussion!

    Does anyone else have a problem with, or can anyone point me to an explanation of WHY the Jedi are so against massive attacks on the
    Vong - i.e., Centerpoint, the Worldships in Rebirth, etc?

    It would seem that the Jedi, especially Luke (who blew up the entire Death Star, and assisted the Rebels who blew up the second one) would understand that evil needs to be met this way, and not be so concerned about understanding or trying to "turn" the Vong into something they aren't!

  2. DarthIshtar Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 9
    I think it's the idea that keeps any sane unit from going after civilian targets. And, think about it. After all these years of death, destruction, and occasional reprieve, don't you think they're not exactly thrilled to have to kill more?
  3. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
  4. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    They are over-moral, but still, Kyp was wrong to lie.
  5. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    Kyp was wrong to lie, but these people aren't acting like they're in a war. Not guerilla warfare, like in the rebel days, but all out total war. They're dicking around too much. The Vong invade their space; they fall back. The Vong destroy entire worlds; they fall back. The line must be drawn here -- this far, no farther! Really, if blowing up a worldship means that 12000 Vong warriors die, which in turn probably saves millions of native lives, it's definitely worth it.
  6. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Yes, it was worth it, and it was about time something like that happened. The Jedi and the NR have become too squeamish.
  7. Darth_Hospodar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2000
    star 3
    Well, I'm glad others read it the way I do too!

    I mean, I can understand Luke is more sensitive to his opponent's life force, whether good or bad, and is more thoughtful, but COME ON! I just sat reading JEDI ECLIPSE's ending and saying to myself "What the heck are they thinking?" THink about it - sure, destroying the fleet like that would've shortened the story arc a bit, and Del Rey wants to make money :p but I didn't think after that book and Balance Point (which I thought was another tribute to non-action!) that I'd continue reading the NJO!
    Thank the MAKER for the Edge of Victory books!

  8. III_Vir_RPC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 1
    Twelve thousand? A mere twelve thousand deaths with the loss of a worldship? If the New Republic hesitates to commit this, then it is final proof of Republican hypocrisy.

    Observe:

    When was the last time that the New Republic hesitated to destroy an Imperial Star Destroyer?

    A Star Destroyer carries a crew of 25,000, not simply 12,000.

  9. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    This is one of the reasons that I am critical of the NJO, the NR / Jedi seem too fearful. Unreasonably so.

    Oh yeah, Mastadge, a word of warning: Jean-Luc Picard after you for nicking his line without permission, and this is the take-no-crap First Contact Picard! :)

    Jedi Ben
  10. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    Umm, who ever said that there were 12,000 Vong on that worlship? That thing wasn't done being grown so why would there be a full crew on it? Besides, 12,000 Vong died (or will die soon after the book) on the worldship that Nen Yim was stationed on. That same situation is probably happening on other worldships too.
  11. Sache8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 4
    As I said before somewhere else, I agreed w/ Kyp's reasoning to destroy the worldship, especially considering it was still under construction at the time and not very populated. But I also agree w/ Jaina that his method was wrong. She was pretty whoppin' mad;(that was one of the best scenes in the book :)); It'll be interesting to see if there is ever a reconciliation of respect in that arena.

    I like to keep in mind through all this that the series is called the "New Jedi Order" not "How to deal with the Vong." I mean, the answers to all these questions are supposed to be the theme of the whole thing, so I'm gonna hold out a little longer. I think Anakin and Jacen are working down opposite ends of the answer personally, Anakin making significant headway in Conquest, through his relationship w/ Vaah Rapuung. A good portion of the Jedi admire Anakin the way they do Kyp, and he's atleast trying to do things the right way. And poor Jacen's got to find his answers sometime, hopefully in the next millenia.
  12. Darth_Hospodar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2000
    star 3
    I was just thinking a little off subject, but mentioned earlier -
    THe Vong ships "dying" - I REALLy hope the resolution isn't the "War of the Worlds"/3001/Independence Day ending, where the GFFA contains some virus that destroys the Vong - or that Midichlorians are poisonous to them or some similar poodoo
  13. Drakh_BountyHunter Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 1999
    Now, see, in all due respect, it isn't fair to accuse Jaina of the noncommittance pervasive in the Jedi Order at this point. After all, she joined Rogue Squadron and was out there on the front lines up until she got a faceful of reactor exhaust.

    And also, she even says in Rebirth that she might have still gone after the worldship if only Kyp had been honest with her.

    As for Luke, I think we might see some more aggressiveness from him in the near future: His wife is cured, his baby is born and healthy, it's all good on the home front. And that was probably the culprit of relaxed battle stance. "Attack in the defense of others", he even said it himself to Corran when they went to Susevfi in "I, Jedi", so he clearly supports it. Maybe if Luke starts getting in there, he'd knock some sense into Jacen, which would be an added bonus. That kid needs a healthy dose of good ol' fashioned dysfunctional cynicism.

    You know the right way to set off Luke's aggressiveness? Have him in a room, lightsaber in hand, and Nom Anor 10 feet away. *should send that in a letter to LucasBooks...

    ~Mike
  14. Darth-Cartman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 1
    Arrggh!!! Spoilers!!!

    Hey, when did Rebirth come out? I haven't run across it yet. However, from having read all the other NJO books, I have to concur that the thought has crossed my mind that they should be doing more.

    Luke especially seems to have changed his attitude about when and where Jedi powers are appropriate, but I agree that he is kind of on his own (no Ben, no Yoda to guide him.)
  15. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Rebirth came out on Tuesday.

    Hey, what a good idea! Nom Anor deserves to die, anyway!
  16. Darth_Hospodar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2000
    star 3
    I'll tell ya, I'm not tired of Nom Anor AT ALL - I would think that they're gonna try and have him defect to the NR, 'cuz he's very into self-serving actions - not very "Vongy" to me - actually, I think somewhere it was kind of referred to that he didn't worship the same gods as the rest of the Vong - he worshipped the god of trickery or something...I could see him messing around with the Shamed Ones in future novels - he could be as complex as Thrawn or Palpatine, seeing how he makes things happen and turns events to his benefit.

    Plus, he hasn't really fought yet - that's so cool...

    It has to be him vs. Luke, though.

    Let the young kids take out the Supreme Overlord - it will be a fitting passing of the torch.

  17. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    With the original worldships dying off naturally, there may be a war of the world ending. A good portion of the vong fleet will probably die off that way. ANd then luke will probably have some lame memorial service for them.

    I like jaina, but she should have had an "ender-like" response to the situation. Deep down she knew what she was really doing while she did it, to blame it all on the guy who lied to her is just not right. Of course the buggers were a heck of a lot more peaceful then the vong. So there shouldn't be any remorse or anger at all.
  18. I-poodoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2001
    star 4
    No there is no rationalizing what Kyp did. There is no understanding why he did it. There is no saying..."Well this is war..."

    NO Kyp has crossed the line no Jedi can cross. He did wrong!

    This is not like Luke and the first Deathstar. The first Deathstar was about to shoot Yavin IV, a moon teeming with innocent bystanders (massasi trees, Pirhana beetles, etc.). Luke made a defensive action when blowing up the first deathstar.

    Kyp made a conscious decision to attack a vong civilian target. Kyp made a conscious decision to decieve others to help him attack a civilian target.

    He did wrong!

    He didn't defend the galaxy from an obvious threat, he comitted mass murder. There can be no quibbling over circumstances and rationalizations for what he did.

    He did wrong!
  19. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    Are the Vong just some group of unruly picnicers or vacationers?

    And Star Destroyers have a crew of 37,085. So when is the last time anyone in the NR had felt sorrow over seeing a Star Destroyer explode? Try no one, including Mr. "paralyzed by morality" Skywalker.

    The Vong are conquerors. They are bringing their entire civilization into the GFFA to conquer it and take it as their own. As for the trillions of life-forms already inhabiting the galaxy, they are unworthy infidels who must be wiped-out, enslaved or sacrificed to appease the gods.

    What the Vong are currently doing in the GFFA is hundreds of times more horrifying than what the Death Star was preparing to do to Yavin IV. Did Palpatine want to kill everyone? No. But this is exactly what the Vong want to do.

    Luke fought fellow humans and killed them without getting all moralistic over it. So why should he pause and get all preachy when facing disgusting vermin that he has nothing in common with?
  20. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    It was not a civilian ship, it was not a civilian ship, it was not a civilian ship. It had weapons and warriors.

    Your blinded by your hatred for kyp.

    Who cares if it is or isn't like the 1st deathstar? Luke attacked the 2nd believing it was defenseless and unoperational. It still wasn't a civilian target, and the rebels did the "right" thing. Just as kyp did the right thing, using all means possible to destroy a military target. He also had very few friendly casualties. Probably the most successful mission in the njo. If rogue squadron had done it on their own without kyp, you'd be singing their praises. and if you still had the same position, then you really are completely ignorant of the rules of engagement.


    gaw-you're absolutely right, palps wanted to rule everyone, the vong want to kill everyone.
  21. Ana Vitorrian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 1999
    star 3
    Kyp has experience with Worldships before, at Helska IV, where the original Dozen-and-Two Avengers were anihilated. At Helska IV, three Praetorite Vong worldships were able to slave their plasma cannon batteries together for planet-side defenses against the engaging NR ships. So Kyp has seen worldships used for military objectives.

    Plus, with the requisite power necessary to move worldships, these dovin basals at the Sernpidal shipwomb do have potential offensive capabilities - regardless of whether the worldship is categorized as a civilian ship or a military vessel. The worldship can act as an interdictor and perhaps even create devastating gravitic anomolies. Upon completion, it might have even been armed with plasma cannons. So whose to say what might ultimately happen with this particular worldship?

    By separate example, the Mon Cal Star Cruisers used by the Rebel Alliance during the Galactic Civil war originally had been for made for civilian transport, but modifications to these cruisers allowed for combat use.

    What Kyp did at Sernpidal did create a devasting loss to the YV - and perhaps created a problem for YV in terms of "loss of" and "allocation of" resources. It definitely made a difference for Yag'dhul (sp?). And perhaps sent a message to the YV that calls for defensive orientations as well as offensive orientations when deploying their war vessels. "Now" - the YV know that they can be attacked . . . and that, in-and-of itself . . . might slow the invasion (a little bit) by giving the YV something else to consider - by perhaps creating hesistation, as well as caution.

    Even with the loss of lives, Kyp's decision resulting in hitting a major target, with minimal loss to the NR, and minimal civilian loss to the YV. It might actually have been a good thing for the NR overall.

    Besides, Obi-Wan and Yoda lied to some extent to Luke. Qui-Gon seemed pretty liberal to me with utilizing "Jedi mindtricks." Whose to say the Jedi are perfect? Maybe Kyp didn't do much wrong - only time will tell - so let the ongoing NJO play it out.
  22. Jedi----Cost Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 1
    as much as i hate to say this luke is wrong.

    the jedi in the old republic went to war (The clone wars} and if thats not enough proff go into the E2 forum and see about the jedi's war in E2
  23. Santee Ordrin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 6
    Kyps actions against the worldship at Sernpidal are similar if not the same as his actions at Carida. And now he is being lauded for what he has done, whereas before he was punished or looked down upon for them. What was so different? War was occuring in both cases.
  24. Tellesto Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 1999
    star 5
    The difference is that innocent lives were present in both situations.
    Jaina mentioned that Vong children would die for what Kyp had done, simple children who had done nothing to the New Republic save for existing.
    And even though many of those children would grow up to become warriors, shapers and tricksters in the vein of the current Vong, they were still innocent casualties in a time of war.
    It was an attack that could have been prevented, it could have been solved another way.
    Kyp is now teeming towards the Dark Side in that he has lied to get what he wants and now is moving towards an eventual all out war on the Vong.
    Of course, Obi Wan and Qui Gon took some similar liberties in their execution of actions, yet none that would ensure the death of thousands if not millions of enemy lives.

    The sad thing for his deceitfulness is that it seems that perhaps Jaina and the others would have still destroyed the ship had they been told the truth, already knowing the full capability of a Vong Worldship and its power.
    But all in all, it does serve as a nice plot device to show the true malignant tone behind his active personality.
    It's a good twist and ads some spice to the bridging strife between him and the other Jedi who support pacifism.

    Yet I sense that Luke and the other Jedi will adopt a much more active role from here on out, but I don't believe that it will be on the scale of military action against the Vong such as that contrived by Kyp.
    Such missions should be planned and carried out by the New Republic.
  25. Ana Vitorrian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 1999
    star 3
    I don't understand "why" or "how" Jaina would know Yuuzhan Vong children would die for what Kyp had done. The YV on Dubrillion, Obrao-skai or Yavin 4 seem to be doing OK. Why can't the YV children go planetside. I fail to understand why the children would have to stay on a worldship until it dies. It's my understanding that there were no children at the Shipwomb at Sernpidal. I would think the YV have more than one alternative for relocating their peoples.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.