A problem with NJO Jedi Morality

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth_Hospodar, Aug 1, 2001.

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  1. Santee Ordrin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 6
    What is different about that? Innocent lives were affected in both situations.
  2. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "Kyp is now teeming towards the Dark Side in that he has lied to get what he wants"

    Wrong. He did not get what he wants. He does not want war. Members of his squadron, his friends died. He didn't want that. Jaina's pissed off. Hedidn't want that. He lied so people would listen to him. People discriminate against him and automatically do the opposite of what he suggests. Because of this lie they had to pay him attention. He lied to strike a blow against the Vong and save people in the GFFA their lives. That's what he lied for and while I wish he could've done it without lying he had to get it done. Sure lying was wrong, but it's true that he wouldn't have been able to do it any other way and it HAD to get done. Many of the SW heros have lied to get something done and we have praised them for it.
  3. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "Wrong. He did not get what he wants."

    Um, I think he did actually.

    Kyp wanted to send a message to the YV that their civilians weren't sacred if the NR's weren't. He got that.

    Kyp wanted to strike a blow that would hit the YV where it counts. He got that.


    The difference between Kyp destroying this worldship and Luke destroying the Death Stars is that as it turns out, the worldship isn't capable of any immediate military action on it's own. The Death Star HAD to be destroyed. It was a superweapon capable of destroying planets, with billions of lives already on it's hands. The worldship is nothing more than a glorified nursery. Yeah, you can say that those YV would grow to become warriors, thus making it an even more dangerous weapon than the Death Star. I'm not buying it. Luke did what he did because the Death Star would have destroyed billions more lives if he did not. Kyp destroyed the worldship as nothing more than a notice to the other YV, and he did it with anger and revenge on his mind. Seems of the Dark Side to me.

    JMA
  4. Tellesto Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 1999
    star 5
    What is different about that? Innocent lives were affected in both situations.

    The difference is that now the New Jedi Order has adopted a much more philosophical approach to the confrontation of their enemies.
    They write Luke Skywalker as a wise Jedi Master who would be just as happy to see the conflict come to an end despite the loss of life and property on both sides.
    Peace is their general theme with the Jedi, and they need to stick to that theme to ensure that we feel their plight.
    This isn't just a bunch of pilots going to blow up a Death Star for the good of a small rebellion, which would not happen during the time of the Vong because of the political and philosophical checks and balances in place.

    Wrong. He did not get what he wants. He does not want war. Members of his squadron, his friends died. He didn't want that. Jaina's pissed off. Hedidn't want that. He lied so people would listen to him. People discriminate against him and automatically do the opposite of what he suggests. Because of this lie they had to pay him attention. He lied to strike a blow against the Vong and save people in the GFFA their lives. That's what he lied for and while I wish he could've done it without lying he had to get it done. Sure lying was wrong, but it's true that he wouldn't have been able to do it any other way and it HAD to get done. Many of the SW heros have lied to get something done and we have praised them for it.

    Make no mistake; Kyp does indeed want a war that will end the fight with the Vong.
    He wants the restoration of the galaxy that he grew up in and he sees that the only way to that path (from his perspective) is conflict.
    Conflict is the very seed of war, and he desires that conflict to bring about his selfish desires.
    His pilots may have died, but I assure you he sees them as needed casualties, sacrifices for the greater good of things.
    He'd just as well sacrifice a few lives for millions.
    And like I said in my last post, past Star Wars heroes did lie to get what they wanted, but they didn't do it on the scale of killing thousands of lives.

  5. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "Kyp wanted to send a message to the YV that their civilians weren't sacred if the NR's weren't. He got that.

    Kyp wanted to strike a blow that would hit the YV where it counts. He got that. "

    He only wants to do that to end the war so people will be safe. What you just describedis what all the people they are supposed to be protecting want and what all sane people want, so what's wrong with it. Kyp is one of the few with the courage to attempt to give everybody want they want.
  6. Tellesto Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 1999
    star 5
    That is true, he is acting on a desire that no one else will contemplate.
  7. bobabooie Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2001
    star 2
    Look at one simple line Yoda said - "The Jedi use the force for KNOWLEDGE and DEFENCE, NEVER for ATTACK" If the Jedi start attacking the Vong they are using anger and aggression, the Darkside. They can't do that. Luke knows this, thats why the Jedi aren't leading any kinda of assults on the Vong or anything (at least not at the point I'm at)
  8. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    Luke has been acting like an idiot for much of the series. It's called bad writing.
  9. bobabooie Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2001
    star 2
    Theres been some bad writing (mostly by Stackpole) but Luke is following the Jedi teachings Yoda gave him, thats all.
  10. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    With an enemy like the Yuuzhan Vong, one can attack for the purpose of defending. This does not contradict Jedi philosophy, or it should not, anyway.
  11. son of lucas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 1999
    star 1
    what i really had a problem with was anakin not firing from centerpoint

    you gotta do something pretty stupid for me to say that thracken did the right thing!
  12. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. They can't hurt you and innocents if you push them back into their galaxy and keep them busy. Jedi have attacked before and nobody made such a big fuss. Get over it. Check out Tales of the Jedi Series. Hell, Luke Skywalker atttacked what he believed was an unoperational space station with billions of non-military crew people and builders aboard at Endor. It was his job to pull down the shield so that other people could shoot at this unoperational target. Qui-Gon takes an active role in hunting down Xanatos and it's a good thing he did or else how many others would he have killed in his twisted hunt for revenge. The Jedi must take an active role in fighting the Vong too or watch the galaxy as they know it disappear.
  13. Drakh_BountyHunter Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 1999
    I just got done reading the whole board. Here's what I see.

    Now personally, I'm for the more aggressive involvement of Jedi in the conflicts. Otherwise, who is really blocking the Vong from the other half of the galaxy (The Ison Corridor, Bakura, Endor, etc. etc.)

    However, those that agree with me and are using the "No one ever felt remorseful blowing up an ISD, and they have a crew of 30,000+" is going about it all wrong.

    You know why? ISD's have escape pods.

    Here's my thought. We know that the Old Republic Jedi got down and dirty in the Clone Wars. However, the New Republic Jedi don't know to what extent. If we use the average person's knowledge as a baseline, we think that Luke knows what Captain Afyon said in "X-Wing: Rogue Squadron":

    "You'd think that a dozen Jedi and two dozen snubby jocks won the whole thing."

    Given this statement, Luke would have to guess that what is being exhibited by Kyp is perfectly normal in broad, galaxy-consuming conflicts like this, i.e. a few Jedi break away and act aggressively - in turn being rewarded for their actions - but the Order as a whole remains outside the conflict.

    My call - Vergere comes in sooner or later and teaches Luke of the extent to which the Jedi were involved in conflicts like not only the Clone Wars, but the Sith War and other conflicts before that, knowledge that would have been repressed by Palpatine. From there, the whole Order gets into the swing of things.

    ~Mike
  14. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    With all due respect, Rebecca and I-poodoo, you evidently don't know how to win a war.
    And likening Kyp's destruction of the worldship to Carida is so off-base that I'll make that clear right now. Cardia was a legal, non-aggressive planet which did nothing to merit its wholesale destruction. On the other hand, the Yuuzhan Vong have no right to be in the GFFA, and the worldship that Kyp attacked is in fact building on the remains of a destroyed planet (and Chewbacca by the way). To win a war, one (even a Jedi) must attack, whether for defensive purposes or not. And Kyp is surely attacking the Vong in what is GFFA territory (by the way is Sernpidal in the NR?), and Kyp is surely doing everything he is doing for the good of the galactic sentients. The worldship's destruction wasn't BAD. To defeat an enemy,you can't simply defeat them on the battlefield, because you leave them all the time in the world to regenerate in between battles. You must take the war into their territory (or, in this case, their STOLEN territory), and knock out their MILITARY infrastructure. Vong civilians? That doesn't even exist.
  15. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "And likening Kyp's destruction of the worldship to Carida is so off-base that I'll make that clear right now. Cardia was a legal, non-aggressive planet which did nothing to merit its wholesale destruction."

    Excuse me, non-aggressive? It was the major stormtrooper training facility, and was a heavily armed imperial fortress. It's where a huge chunk of the emperor's war resources were created.

    I think you guys are missing the point. At least what I'M trying to argue is that it's wrong for a JEDI to do these things. Why? Because a Jedi has the power, through manipulation of the Force, to cause untold destruction on levels that non Force-Sensitives can't even begin to comprehend. Look at the destruction that only 2 Sith Lords brought about. They managed to basically enslave an entire galaxy! If Wedge, Kre'fey, Gavin Darklighter, wanted to hit the Vong worldship, I would applaud that as an extremely intelligent military maneuver on the part of the NR. But it was Kyp who orchestrated the entire thing, manipulating many people (sometimes through use of the Force) to do something that they may not have agreed with if they had known the whole truth. Kyp Durron, one of the most powerful Jedi in existence, and possibly in history. If he falls to much farther into this kind of thing, the entire GFFA could be paying for his actions, even if they are successful in wiping out the Vong. If regular military personnel wanted to hit that Vong target..fine. Great move on their part. But don't get someone with the power to destroy stars at his immediate command involved in that.

    JMA
  16. Face Loran Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 1999
    star 4
    --"And even though many of those children would grow up to become warriors, shapers and tricksters in the vein of the current Vong, they were still innocent casualties in a time of war"--

    Luke and Mara have no problem killing innocents who have the potential to become threats, if you recall. Forget the Death Star, what about Mount Tantiss?

    From Page 179 of The Last Command
    "Were there a thousand cylinders?" Organa Solo persisted. "Two thousand? Ten?"

    "I'd say at least twenty thousand," Mara told her. "Maybe more."

    There you go, at least twenty thousand "innocents," at least by your standards. They were in there infancy (sort of). They had done nothing to warrant their deaths. They died because, most likely, they would end up as stormtroopers or pilots or whatever. But not necessarily, the could've become simple, honorable folks, like Carib Devist, or many others. They were killed simply because they exist.

    They are exactly the same. The Vong treat the children as a crop, which will blossom into warriors. Remember the remark in Rebirth about the children growing up in higher gravity to make their bones stronger and their muscles thinker.

    The situation is almost exactly the same. You argue that the children did not deserve do die because they had yet to commit a crime, although they probably would. Thats right, you shouldn't kill someone because you think they might, ten odd years down the line, kill you. Similarly, you can't arrest someone because you think they might grow up to be a serial killer. But sometimes, bad things must be done to prevent REALLY bad things.

    What I'm saying Luke, Jacen, and all there fans out there should get off there high horse, because Luke is not above getting his hands dirty to accomplish a greater good, either.

    Face
  17. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    <<<My call - Vergere comes in sooner or later and teaches Luke of the extent to which the Jedi were involved in conflicts like not only the Clone Wars, but the Sith War and other conflicts before that, knowledge that would have been repressed by Palpatine. From there, the whole Order gets into the swing of things.>>>

    Well Vergere left with the Vong before the Clone War began so she won't be able to speak on those events but she can still talk about other galactic conflicts.

    <<<Similarly, you can't arrest someone because you think they might grow up to be a serial killer.>>>

    This is off-topic, but this reminds me of Spielberg's next film Minority Report, which is essentially about cops who have ways of determining whether someone will commit a crime in the future so that they may arrest them prior to that and stop the crime from happening. FYI, the movie will be released next summer and the movie is based off a short story by Phillip K. Dick.
  18. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    jedi can't be in the military? what!?

    sorry general kenobi, your just too powerful.


    since a couple kids have shot up schools, all kids should be banned from school.

    your logic is completely flawed.


    btw, kyp didn't need the force to blow up carida. any pilot could've. And there wasn't all-out war and it wasn't sanctioned so the comparison is apples and oranges.

  19. Janz_Walker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    The reason everyone was mad at Kyp for the destruction of the worldship is because unlike Kyp, they recognized that the Yuuzhan Vong are people, not some force-mad enemy, and that their older worldships that lack faster-than-light travel are dying. Thus, if they don't get a new worldship, many innocents (the YV children, shamed ones) will die.

    Plus with the saving of lives may come rewards. The destruction of that worldship guaranteed the death of Nen Yim's worldship. Those deaths turned a possible ally into a very dangerous enemy, one that will in the future take more life than would have been lost by leaving the worldship alone. She was a possibly an ally in the first place because she lacked the motivation (belief in their gods)to conquer the infidels.

    I see nothing wrong with Jedi morality. Preservation of life is paramount to these people, no matter which side it may be on. That is their reason to serve. Sure you can take the easy path and kill off a worldship and thus a future generation of Yuuzhan Vong, but isn't that easy path of the dark side? It gets you to your goal a whole lot quicker, but there are other ways, that while they may take longer to reach the same conclusion, will end up saving more life in the end, Yuuzhan Vong and indigenous population both.

    Janz Walker
  20. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    Luke must be destroyed then. He has crippled the Jedi with the mindless prattle of Kenobi and Yoda.
  21. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "If regular military personnel wanted to hit that Vong target..fine. Great move on their part"

    That's the problem. Finally we get to the crux of an issue and what is it: A double standard. It's ok for a regular person to do it, but a Jedi can't. Why? Because a Jedi is stronger and is capable of doing more damage. When they're causing damage to an extragalactic invasion force bent on the extermination of the entire galaxy I say the more the better. Why would you not want the person who is the most capable for the job, do the job. A Jedi can help people in any situation including attacking an enemy worldship.
  22. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    <<<jedi can't be in the military? what!?
    sorry general kenobi, your just too powerful.>>>

    I just wanted to throw this in real quick but there's also an example in the NJO: Kenth Hamner is a retired (right?) colonel. Luke was also part of Rogue Squadron for a couple years. Heck, even Jaina has been in the military.
  23. Janz_Walker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    Jarik, my reply to you is above. :)

    SW Chris
  24. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    I don't really see how that is a reply to a double standard and I don't see too much new stuff in there either except that last paragraph which proves you know nothing about how to fight a war. If you ever become a commander in our army let me know so I can move to Russia.

    I'm not trying to be mean here. I've just been arguing this for a long time and I probably am getting a little snippish.
  25. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Was just gonna suggest that this thread may want to cool it down a notch. So many good conversations on here degenerate into insults it seems like.

    JMA
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