A problem with NJO Jedi Morality

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth_Hospodar, Aug 1, 2001.

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  1. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "may take longer to reach the same conclusion, will end up saving more life in the end, Yuuzhan Vong and indigenous population both."

    The longer the war lasts the more people will die, not be saved because the fighting will be going on longer and as long as there is fighting people will be dieing.
  2. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    Nen Yiem, an ally? Come on. Using that against Kyp's actions is simply ridiculous. Anyway, no Vong are innocent in this galaxy, Shamed or not. As long as the Vong are pressing into the NR and the Vong culture remains unchanged, you must assume all Vong children will grow up to take after their parents.
  3. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    Oh, yeah, forgot about that. Nen Yim never had any potential to be NR ally. She was being a heretic and disobeying her gods to help the Vong take the galaxy so I don't see any ally potential there.
  4. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    Why is it that Wedge and Co. can do somethign that Kyp can't? Just because he's a Jedi doesn't mean there are limitations on what he can do. Contrarily, a Jedi must be expected to do more than the normal person. If Wedge, in destroyign the shipwomb, would be a brilliant tactician, Kyp would be too because they are both human. But it was Kyp who did it and not Wedge because Kyp, as a Jedi, went above and beyond what Wedge is expected to do.
  5. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    I fear wedge & co a whole lot more than any single jedi or group. Vader and palpatine ruled the empire, but the vast military is what kept it in line.
  6. Janz_Walker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    Who said anything about fighting a war? I was talking about the moral side of your post. That is what this thread is about.

    No worries. ^_^ I myself know that if all this moral stuff didnt' get in the way, one would probably try to take out the enemy as quickly as possible with as much force as possible a la Imperial Superweapon of the Day. The New Republic hasn't been doing that though throughout its history. So there must be a reason why.

    As for Nen Yim... I saw something there in Conquest. It's buried deep behind the lines, but it's there.
  7. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    Mostly cause they don't have any superweapons cause they don't want to risk them falling into the wrong hands plus superweapons aren't cost effective. The Empire lost a lot of money on destroyed superweapons and got little to no return. The NR captured the Sun Crusher.

    "Who said anything about fighting a war? I was talking about the moral side of your post. That is what this thread is about."

    That's exactly the problem. Everybody's arguing morals. Oh no we can't attack it's immoral. The Jedi can't attack, thrust or anything. They must only parry blows and retreat cause it's immoral. Better start fighting the war and attacking or else there soon won't be anything left to defend.
  8. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    Nen Yim will not defect from the Vong. She is however a rebel. She'll do whatever possible to help the Vong and she recognizes the fact that the Vong caste systems and all the different protocols are only getting in their way and prohibiting further advancement. Nen Yim cares deeply about the Vong and has no interest in helping the 'infidels'.
  9. I-poodoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2001
    star 4
    I agree Bogga, The Good guys will not find an ally in her. Especially not after the shipwomb debacle/victory. She practically vowed to get revenge on the infidels for that.
  10. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    hmm I just noticed the strong similarities between kyp and nen yim.

    anyways, I remember a quote in one of the books that said something like, the vong will kill you if you don't appease them, and if you do they'll kill you and laugh at how stupid you've been. These are the people that shouldn't be attacked? The imps get less love then that and they're indigenous species!
  11. _JM_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 4
    A Worldship is a valid military target as it has such great combat abiities. The Shipwomb was an even more valid military target as a facility directly related to the Vongs war effort.

    If the Vong choose to place their innocents in danger by having them on or near military targets then (IMO) the New Republic is not obliged to place a higher value on the lives of these Yuuzhan Vong than those enemy leaders who placed them there.

    Kyp Durrons actions seem like a reasonable compromise between the old concept of directly targetting civilian populations to destroy the enemy morale (which didn't work very well and so wasted vast effort) and the current concept of going to great lengths to avoid civilians (which doesn't work very well as it, again, causes wasted effort and it is easy enough to move a nursery school to above your bunker - which could be what the Vong decided to do rather than find a place of safety).
  12. Janz_Walker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    Hmm... good points. Maybe I was wrong about the worldship thing. :) Keyes even hinted that it might be okay to attack that target if Kyp came to them with the straight story. I now think that what was immoral about the debacle was that Kyp did not tell the truth, and that when finding the truth, Wedge, Gavin, and Jaina knew that they had attacked the ship with the wrong reason in mind. They still probably would have attacked it though.
  13. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    Lying was not te best thing to do, but he believed that it was the only way he could get it done. He believed this because no one ever listens to him or does as he suggests.
  14. Janz_Walker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    Sad, but true. You just made me feel sorry for Kyp. LOL.
  15. Jedi_Master_Thrawn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2000
    star 1
    You have to remeber, Luke was only just barely aware of the Force at Death Star I, and not all that much more at Death Star II. He and the other Jedi are much more aware of what kind of effect that would have. Also, if the Jedi step in in this case, the people of the galaxy would expect them to do the same in every case. they acted as mediators and peace makers in the Old Republic, but they wern't a SWAT team. but that's just what they'll become, if people like Kyp get their way.
  16. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "but they wern't a SWAT team"

    Sometimes the Jedi have to fight to defend people. Swat teams are a good thing to have. Just wait till Episode 2 and 3. I'm sure you'll see lots of Jedi acting at times like a Swat Team.
  17. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "Sad, but true. You just made me feel sorry for Kyp. LOL."

    Well, he did have a rough life. Maybe even rougher than Han's, but that's not what we're talking about.
  18. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    ep.2 spoiler!!!


















    i hear yoda fights
  19. phantasm66 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 2
    Thank you - s/he who posted 'only vaguely aware of the force at the death star battles'. He didnt have control at the second Death Star and got lucky in throwing his rage away. If he would've beheaded Vader right then, he would've died when the Rebels toasted the Death Star.

    He was also fighting for the survival of the Jedi, justice was needed for the thousands of Jedi slaughtered at Vader's hands, not to mention the fact that they are Sith lords (not innocents). Light needs to be in constant balance with Dark - and dark got a big advantage. The prophecy held true.. Vader brought balance to the force in chucking the Emporer over the rail.

    Any Jedi who took the attack to innocents in the past is wrong. Luke did it before he knew that, I havent read the circa TPM books, but if someone said Qui Gon attacked someone, for whatever reason (especially revenge) then he was wrong too.

    I also recall a post that said 'Kyp didnt need the force to blow up Carida'.. actually yes he did. The dark side helped him push that trigger to launch the missle into the star. He was wrong. Had say Cilghal stolen the SunCrusher - I seriously doubt she would cause a star to go nova

    Kyp was wrong to blow up that Worldship regardless of the implications. Its too aggressive (not to mention the tactics he used to do it) and its going to blow up in his face.

    Who was the last Jedi to break ranks and take some with him... Darth Bane I believe.

    Luke is right and it only reaffirmed my faith in that when he ceased attacking Mara's disease and beat it out from the inside by strengthening the defense. Kyp will learn yet another lesson - I just hope that he doesnt learn it the hard way.

    But again, as mentioned in another post, Jedi philosophy is governed by how the writers perceive it and we can argue till the cows come home. But from my standpoint, I'll listen to Yoda in that the force is in fact used for knowledge and defense.. never for attack. 900 years gives him a bit of an experience edge on just about everyone else.

    oh and when episode 2 comes around, you'll see that when/if Yoda fights, it will be in defense

    <throws my 2 pennies in the middle> bring on the retorts/flames. those who know what im talking about - im going to need your help.
  20. Janz_Walker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    <ignites lightsaber> Okay phantasm... Send in the clones. :D I'm ready for em.

    Chris

  21. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    Kyp did fight in defense. If Kyp had not destroyed the shipwomb, then it would have undoubtedly become a worldship used to further overrun and enslave sentients that the Jedi have vowed to protect. As I have reasoned before on this thread, until Vong culture changes, all facets of their society is currently geared to the conquest of the GFFA, and any action Kyp takes against the Vong will go towards delaying, and possibly preventing, this conquest.
  22. phantasm66 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 2
    Thanks Janz ;)

    Kyp got in his starship and with Kre'fey's flagship on his tail and Rogue Squadron with him, made the jump and initiated the attack against the Yuuzhan Vong. There was nothing defensive about it

    You're right in saying that the ship would probably have been used against the New Republic, but again - the Jedi themselves shouldn't do anything until its used against the people that they are there to protect.

    I wish I had more information to go on - these 2 months between books is killing me. I wish it was like when I started reading them - too many to count.
  23. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    Pre-emptive strikes are essential to prevent one's opponent from being able to augment his forces in an unhindered fashion, to make sure the enemy is unable to augment the strategic balance into his favor any further.
  24. phantasm66 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 2
    Which is a concern of the New Republic military, not of the Jedi Knights
  25. I-poodoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2001
    star 4
    Exactly the jedi aren't glorified, super-powered military special forces, but essentially a religious order dedicated on the advocation of life, peace, and understanding. They're like shoalin monks who've learned Kung Fu but dedicated on using the fighting techniques to further their understanding of life rather than beating someone up good or bad.
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