A problem with NJO Jedi Morality

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth_Hospodar, Aug 1, 2001.

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  1. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    Huh? So that whole lightsaber thing isn't a weapon, instead it's just something to understand the Jedi Code better? Come on. The Jedi are supposed to be irrevocably linked to the New Republic, as in they share mutual concerns, just like the Old Jedi and the Old Republic were linked in this way.
  2. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    The Jedi Knights have their origins in the samurai - a clear martial institution. Common definitions of "knight" is indeed include them as a special force - someone cermoniously awarded special status in the military as well as society-at-large.

    The Jedi are indeed the "special forces" of the Light Side, the heavy hitters, the defenders of the galaxy.
  3. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    monks? there are already the aing-ti, the jedi are just as much fighters as they are anything else. They are sworn defenders of the galaxy. there is zero evidence for jacen's beliefs. They've fought for something like 10,000 years!
  4. _JM_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 4
    Granted that the Jedi are not military special forces but they do have special abilities and a long history of using those abilities to defeat threats to the New Republic.

    Civilian experts have played a great part in past military operations thanks to their specialist knowledge and abilities. Kyp Durrons non-military status is not much of a disqualification.

    It comes down to which is the greatest obligation - is it morally superior to allow people to suffer when you can do something that may shorten the war, or should you stick rigidly to the philosophy espoused by Yoda.

    To Quote :
    "To be, or not to be. Is it nobler to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take up arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them"

    IMO Kyp has decided that as the sooner the Vong are stopped the sooner people will stop being killed or displaced by them that morally this should happen as soon as possible. He may even be willing because of his past mistakes and losses to risk falling to the Dark Side if this will allow him to do what he feels must be done. This seems a perfectly moral standpoint for the short or medium term.

    IMO Luke on the other hand has decided that the risks of direct action against the Vong to the morality of his embryonic Jedi Order are too great, that if they start acting this way now that as the Order grows and develops the consequences could be severe. He is unwilling to risk losing anybody to the Dark Side or even to return to his old methods of using vast quantities of Force-Power and risk losing his new enlightenment (which is crucial to his ability to shape the Order). This is a perfectly moral standpoint for the long or very-long term.

    As Obi liked saying "Certain Point of View"
  5. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    Problem is- the Vong are about to wipe out the galaxy, as in right now, immediately. Luke's long-term thinking is going to get the whole galaxy enslaved. I'd say another empire with a Dark Kyp Durron at the head is better than a galaxy with only Vong in it and their slaves (not that Kyp will fall to the dark side in my opinion). I do, therefore, disagree with the statement that Luke said a galaxy full of a hundred Darth vader's is more to be feared than if the Vong have their way with the GFFA. At least Kyp won't exterminate everybody. Am I right?
  6. Janz_Walker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    Klivan, that's a rather extreme view from my viewpoint. =P

    I think most of us are all agreeing on the same thing... There's just a few minor details that we differ on.

  7. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Here's an idea.

    The Jedi arn't fighting a war. They haven't declared war on the Yzzumng Vong nor do they acknowledge the Republic as just.

    They're purpose is like Amnesty International or Food corps.

    To save lives.

  8. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    Problem for that theory is that the Jedi have been historically linked the Republic, Old or New, and their interests are usually linked. As for the Jedi being some organization only involved in the war insofar as they are saving lives, well, the Jedi I think will save the most lives by taking teh war to the Yuuzhan Vong. Yes, any lives lost is a negative, but currently the Vong are in the process of a galaxy-wide genocide and lives will be lost if they are not stopped. This much is obvious, though hopefully Charlemagne will debate me on this
  9. Janz_Walker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    Hey that was mean. :(

    SW Chris
  10. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    I thought you guys were maybe done w/ the discussion and I was just telling him to stick around and debate, no offense to you or others. Why else would I responed to your arguments?
  11. darth-skycrawler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 2
    From what we know when the clone wars occur the jedi don'tsit back and say we can't go and fight they get majorly involved and even become generals. Also if the jedi are the guardians of peace and justice that means if a group of lets say bothans decided the wanted to conquer Corellia because their Gods demanded it you can bet there would be a few hundred jedi in a flash to stop the invasion. Kypp is the only true jedi the rest should follow his example.
  12. bobabooie Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2001
    star 2
    The Jedi CAN'T ATTACK - why is that so hard for people to understand? "The Jedi use the force for knowledge and defence, NEVER for attack". The Jedi cannot attack without using the darkside. Where would it stop? The Jedi attack the VOng, so why no the Empire, they might be a threat, then who? The pirates and smugglers like Kyp was doing? If the Jedi attack the Vong and kill say a thousand of them, how are they different then the Vong? What if HALF of those VOng had not lifted a finger to hurt anyone in the galaxy? They fight when attacked, that means when a planet is attacked, they fight back, but they can't go and make a counter attack against the Vong - thats agreesion, which is part of the darkside.
  13. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    obiwan encouraged luke to "use the force" to destroy the deathstar. All throughout the movies and eu, the jedi fight and try to strike cruical blows to the enemy. On the first deathstar there were thousands of personel who would not of attacked alderaan. They didn't try to kill anyone, but they got killed and of course it's no big deal cause luke did it.

    Where has it been said that "agression" is a dark side attribute? uh nowhere.

    loose quote from kyp-"why are we taught to attack with lightsabers and not just parry and defend?"

    uh because you're supposed to fight.

    that's why it's so hard for people to understand your point of view.
  14. Jarik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "NEVER for attack"

    Then you will NEVER win. If you never thrust you will never win. If you only parry and you are hgood at it you may last for a while, but eventually they'll get through and you'll lose and die. You better fight back.

    Once again I'll play a game of risk with you. Do not attack. I will. We will see who wins. It may take me a while since you could heavily fortify 1 position for a while, but eventually my armies will build up and you will lose.

    I'm like 5'9, 130 pounds, 16 years old. If I fought a wrestler: 6'4, 250 pounds pure muscle and they never attacked I would win eventually. Why? Cause he would not be giving himself a chance to win. (I still might not be able to beat him with my bare hands, but they use chairs and stuff all the time. Just for people's info, I'm not a wrestling fan.)

    If the Jedi don't attack they render themselves unable to defend and only prolong the extinction of the galaxy for maybe a coiuple months, maybe a year.
  15. Janz_Walker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    What I think the words "never for attack" mean is simply this: The Jedi shouldn't attack on their personal feelings (notice I didn't say Feelings in the Force), but for the greater good.

    An example would be that perhaps Kyp thought the inhabitants of a region would be safer if he carved out his own empire and became a warlord. Clearly an act of the Dark Side.

    Conversely, it would be okay to attack if the fight was taken to the Jedi, NOT the other way around. Once the Vong attacked the Jedi, it should be their responsibility to defend themselves by attacking back.
  16. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    Very wise, Janz_Walker. I suppose intentions is everything to a Jedi. Attack for the sake of defense is something Luke said in I,Jedi and I suppose that's what he and Corran hold to.

    Anyway, wrestling fans rule! I wrestle in high school and the WWF is even cooler than that! Star Wars and WWF, what's better than that? :D
  17. BOOSTERERRANT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 4
    Hey...I admit...Luke is a little too lax.

    It's only because he hasn't been hit where it counts.

    Think about it...Corran snapped at Elagos's murder...Jacen snapped when his mother was in danger...

    What is Luke's breaking point....
  18. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    Technically, the Vong have declared war on the Jedi. Recall Tsavong Lah's speech in BP.
  19. HALCYONERA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2001
    Even if all the fully trained Jedi started to fight back against the Vong, there would only be a hundred fighting the Vong, to defeat the Vong will take the efforts of the Imperial Rememant, the Republic & the Jedi Order and possibly the Shamed Ones. Kyp does not seem to have any strategy beyond attacking the Vong from what I have seen up to Conquest and following the events of Rebirth may have alienated any allies within the Republic the Jedi had. I do think Luke has become quite passive in his approach but he is not sitting around doing nothing as some people seem to think, he protected the refugees, is setting up a safehaven for Jedi. The problem is that Luke is not used to politics, he does not have the diplomatic training that Leia does and has very few allies left within the Republic Senate, Kyp's actions seem to be self aggravating IMO especially if he is calling for Jedi to look out only for themselves which is against the spirit of everything that the Jedi Knights was founded to protect. It sounds more like something that a Sith Lord would say.
  20. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Kyp's strategy was doing exactly what you called for..."to defeat the Vong will take the efforts of the Imperial Rememant, the Republic & the Jedi Order and possibly the Shamed Ones"

    Kyp sided with the Jedi Order (Jaina, a member of "Luke's Faction"), the Republic (Rogue Squadron and New Republic Navy). All that was missing were the Empire and the Shamed Ones.

    The Empire - Kyp does not have an open dialogue with the Empire, so he didn't pursue that angle at this time. It doesn't mean that he's ignoring them. He may have plans to hook up with them if required.

    The Shamed Ones - As of this time, Anakin and Tahiri are really the only ones who know the extent of their Conquest actions. Corran got to see a glimpse of what the Shamed Ones may mean. However, realistically, any alliance with them will no doubt come from a dialogue between Anakin or Tahiri and them before anyone else.

    Kyp has united with the New Jedi Order and the New Republic to defend against the Vong. He united with the New Jedi Order even while he knew one of its leaders was violating trust and integrity by bugging his ship. If people choose not to unite with him, then that is their problem, and in turn the galaxy's problem - but not Kyp's problem.
  21. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    "especially if he is calling for Jedi to look out only for themselves which is against the spirit of everything that the Jedi Knights was founded to protect. It sounds more like something that a Sith Lord would say. "


    so...what do you think yoda and obi-wan were doing during the purge? Looking out for themselves and hiding. Following their own hidden agenda that I'm sure mace windu and others wouldn't agree to. I mean, building a living superweapon to fight the empire?
  22. Janz_Walker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    Whoa hold on a sec. Since when did Kyp unite the Jedi Order and the New Republic? Half of the NR seems to have it out for the NJO because of Tsavong Lah's little speech in Balance Point.

    Kyp didn't unite them. They have been united since before the fall of the Empire. And now they are fighting a common enemy, but they've begun to fight each other on a political and diplomatic level.
  23. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Janz...
    "Kyp didn't unite them."

    Yes, he did. It was pointed out by Haly that the only way the galaxy could win is if the NR, The NJO, the Empire and perhaps the SO joined in fighting the Vong. Then Haly went on to say Kyp didn't have any plan.

    The fact was that Kyp's plan united the NR and the NJO. In fact, he united both sides of the NJO - members of his faction and Luke's faction - together against their common enemy.

    He couldn't easily tap into the Empire, and the status of the Shamed Ones aren't really common knowledge yet.

    Because Kyp united them, they ended up striking a major blow against the Vong. Whether they choose to stay united is up to them, but the credit goes to Kyp for getting them all working together.
  24. Ana Vitorrian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 1999
    star 3
    I wonder if Han and Lando ever told Kyp about that crazy stunt Bria Tharen and the Rebel Alliance pulled at Ylesia?

    Then again, this is apples and oranges, right? Or is it? Or does it really matter?

    I still think the ends were right regarding the Sernpidal Shipwomb, however, the means could have been handled better, (I think the NR would have struck the target anyways if Kyp had been more forthcoming).

    Now I've moved on to relax and see what happens next with the "Big Picture" in the NJO.
  25. Janz_Walker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    Ok. Just how did he unite them? People keep saying he united the NJO and the NR, yet they don't say how.

    Chris
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