"A Prophecy that Misread Could Have Been"

I'll agree with most of what M.S. states, with the exception of . . .

The 'ethics' of the decisions of the Jedi we first meet in the PT are relative to their millennial role in a galaxy where first they assumed the Sith order no longer existed, and also to how they actually responded when faced with the prospect of a Sith resurgence.

The Jedi were essentially neutered, blinded by Sidious, so much so that they served him at his whim in the Clone wars without ever fuly realizing the nature or purpose of their orders. The order had fallen asleep, become 'corrupted' to their time honored values. Corruption is not used in an 'evil' sense, but only in comparison to their post Sith Wars state.

The Sith, on the other hand, plodded steadily forward, advancing below the radar, rising to positions of influence and power beneath the collective noses of the Jedi and most of the Senate.

We sense that the PT Jedi order is doomed when, in TPM, Mace wickedly responds to Qui-Gon that the warrior who attacked him on Tatooine could not be a Sith, because the Jedi would have sensed them. This, or course, was tragically wrong due to the arrogance of the order and its own sense of complete righteousness and correctness.

Lucas sends a less than subtle message to our global society here that those who serve as the guardians of freedom must always remain vigilant against the rise of evil, and self-critical of their trusted roles. The Jedi order failed to do this for various reasons made clear as the PT unfolds.

 

First of all, I'm going to say that the Force moves in mysterious ways.

I'd say it's pretty clear that the prophecy was not misread and that Anakin did bring balance, destroy the Sith, etc. But I'd also say that he could have done so in Palps's office--and he chose not to. (for reasons listed above) There's that old saying; to err is human, to be perfect is Jedi... in the prequels, Anakin isn't fully a jedi, he won't give up his own fears for the greater good, even when he has his lightsaber at Palpatine's throat! But in the end, he does.

A couple other points:

These two sides aren't both necessary: it could be saying less of the Jedi that they didn't see the Sith moving, or it could be saying more of the Sith's power in the Dark Side. I see it as the latter, that Palpatine pretty much was evil incarnate. After all, he dominated Anakin, the chosen one.

That Palpatine was just more powerful and blinded them takes away the 'arrogance of the order and its own sense of complete righteousness and correctness.' I would not say the Jedi were arrongant or completely sure of themselves... but I'm biased! Palpatine's influence and direction of the Clone Wars definitely would have contributed to their confusion, taking away from their original goal of simply listening to the will of the Force (because they were unknowingly serving the Dark Side).

And this is a very good point. Definitely true--to a degree. Again, I'm biased toward the Jedi and would accuse Lucas of ascribing too much human value to them.
I guess I'd say only that the Jedi could have been really manipulated by Palpatine, who didn't see the will of the Force, only his own (thus allowing for the obliteration of the Order).



Peace, all--it's always fun to waste this much time debating Star Wars.

 

I agree that the Jedi(well many of them at least) had become too certain of themselves, too blindly trusting of the Republic(and understandably so given that it had stood for 25,000 years without a full-scale war), and had forgotten that everything is impermanent except for the Force itself. However, I wouldn't describe that as evidence of corruption. I would describe it as nothing more than the Jedi being flawed. They were still trying to fight the last war, where the Sith attacked from without, and thus Dooku served to distract them from the Sith within by providing them with the enemy they were trained to face.

Oh of course, but that's Mace. Yoda, who displays better judgment throughout, isn't so foolish.

I definitely agree with that.

 

Even Mace's response is delivered a bit cryptically, implying there may be subtext to his comment.

 

^^^

Care to try and define that alluded to subtext? I'm curious, 'tis all.

It really bugs me that both the Jedi and Sith seem to immediately understand who Anakin might be and the galactic implications of his apprearance. The Jedi seem to react with rejection rather than with the usual concerted contemplation.

The Sith recognize Anakin as the straw that will break the back of one side or the other -- and Sidious determines that it is the Jedi that will be broken!

 

It almost seems like Mace and Yoda know something which the rest of the Council does not.

As to what exactly that would be, your guess is as good as mine.

 

Lucas has confirmed that Anakin was the "Chosen One".

 

Yes, Anakin was the chosen one and as such, the prophecy was speaking about him (according to Lucas). But Anakin didn't have to be a Jedi to fulfill it. He could have been an ordinary guy. But seeing as he was a Sith Lord moments before transforming back into Anakin/Jedi, the Jedi probably would have never ascertained all of that in another thousand years of medidation. It was just a pretty whack situation. But all is well that ends well...

And that means of course Yoda and Mace knew nothing - which is exactly what they said they knew.

 

Huh. It would fit with their status as Senior Members and members of the Old Folks' Home.

 

Just as Sidious believed himself to be "The Senate" I think the PT era Jedi believed themselves to be "The Force" to a certain extent. That being the case, it's hardly surprising that they would interpret the prophecy in a certain way, and struggle with the idea that it may be fulfilled completely independently of them.

 

...That's it? That's the friggin prophecy?

Heck, it doesn't even match what Obi-Wan had to say about Anakin not necessarily needing to be a Jedi.

 

It says more than that.

"The Great Holocron contains many references to the prophecy of the Chosen One:

A Jedi will come
To destroy the Sith
And bring balance to the Force

Records are unclear about this prophecy's exact origin, or whether the above words were the actual prophecy or a concise interpretation."

Obi-Wan's statement that they're not even sure the Chosen One has to be a Jedi would imply that it's the latter(with whoever the interpreter was sharing what Obi-Wan described as the Order's "pro-Jedi bias.")

 

^^^

Those who believe in prophecy are absolutely convinced that the substance and nature of their 'prophecy of interest' totally exceeds the limits of what humanity can conceive. The prophecy is destiny. It is, in Lucas' case, the Will of the Force.

In reality, all prophecy is pretty darn vague. Prophecy does not foretell the future -- it identifies conditions that, 'should' they occur at some unknown point in the future, the prophecy comes into play! That may be tomorrow, next week, in a century, a millennium or never.

The people of some particular time suddenly acknowledge that their condition apply to a given prophecy -- not the other way around.

The Chosen One Prophecy is one such example. Anakin Skywalker had mysterious abilities and origins, yet had the Jedi not discovered him, trained him and introduced him to Palpatine, the events of the PT would have transpired in a vastly different way. Anakin may simply have become the best pod racer in the Outer Rim had Jinn and Kenobi crash landed on a neigboring system.

Anakin never actually embraces his prophesied role throughout the entire PT or OT. He in fact totally reject it in the PT, and by his actions in the OT. He only 'becomes' the Chosen One by 'choosing' to save his son. In order to do so he must destroy the Emperor. Destroying Palpatine means accepting his own certain death, thus eliminating the Sith.

I really doubt that Anakin, as he stood by the Emperor watching Luke get fried, thought to himself: "Gee, I really blew it. It could've killed this jerk 23 years ago and fulfilled my destiny as the Chosen One. Thank the Maker I've got this second chance. Well -- here goes!"

Instead, Anakin likely had something like this going through his head: "Wow! Luke just kicked my a**. He's defenseless. That scumbag is going to kill my son -- Padme's son. What do I do? Serve him? Kill him? Kill him -- now!"

After throwing the Emperor goes down the chute, Anakin realizes he's sealed his own fate and is going to die. For a good cause, yes. But by HIS choice, not by some mystical, magical destiny or a hokey Jedi prophecy. He, Anakin Skywalker, created and then embraced his own fate through his own free will. In doing so, he fulfilled an ancient prophecy.

 

Good, because that's probably the worst-worded prophecy I've ever seen. It sounds like a GAO report.

 

If a prophecy is reduced down to a statement which means little more than "something might, or might not happen, some time" then it's barely a prophecy at all is it?

 

That's why I'm glad JvS gives an out through the idea that what's there could simply be some Jedi trying to make it more concise. I would hope the Jedi would at least have as many requirements for the Chosen One as the Talmud has for the Messiah.

 

Well, let's look it at it scientifically.

Let us assume, for a moment, that I said that the prophecy of evolution states:

Production of variation
there shall be,
followed by
natural selection.

Now I did not mention genetics, evolution, the Hardy/Weinburg Equilibrium, survival of the fittest, organisms, or any of the pieces of the prophecy of evolution that are vital to their existance.

In the same way, the words...

A Jedi will come
and destroy the Sith
bringing balance to the Force.

...are merely the core of a much larger concept of the "prophecy" of the One who will bring balance to the Force.

 

The destruction of the Jedi Order and the fall of Anakin to the dark being integral to the prophecy is never something that I could believe as being necessary. The Jedi may have been blind in some ways, but they stood for good and what was right. To say that their destruction was necessary would be to condone the countless atrocities, killing of innocents, and destruction of planets that the Sith committed over the next 20 or so years while in control of the galaxy, as there was no one left to stand in their way.

Anakin could have avoided all of that, saved billions upon billions of living creatures, and lived happily with a complete body and his wife and twins if only he would have bravely chosen the selfless path and done the right thing in the chancellor's office in the two opportunities that he had. Goodness knows it's what Padme would have had him do, even at the possible expense of her life, as she always chose duty, morality, and what was righteous and just. From his dreams, he didn't realize that the cause of her death would be his actions and turn to evil.

So while he could have averted the horror, he chose the quick and easy path. He luckily did the right thing in the end, but his earlier failure certainly resulted in a great deal of hardship, death, and destruction.

 

No, I am not by any means condoning the atrocities committed by the Sith or exlempified by the darkness that enveloped the galaxy under the reign of Darth Sidious. I am merely stating that, in all life, change is a necessary component of enhancement. As such, the Jedi needed to be rebuilt in order to fulfill their intended destiny of preserving the light side of the Force.

 

But they didn't all have to be killed off for that to happen. All it accomplished is it threw the Force further off balance leaving it in darkness like Obi-wan told Anakin on Mustafar.

 

Wow.

The Jedi prophecy looks rather astute.
Sortof like the one I'm about to make.

"Someday, migrating cows will fly,
and a few might drop a little poo-doo on the concrete."

 

^^^



While anything is possible in the SW universe, THAT would truly be a mooo-ving experience -- dodging poo-doo as it grazes past. But alas, nothing could be fodder from reality.

Oh well, I've milked this for all it's worth. But you certainly haven't herd the last of me on this subject!

 

Or a really bad haiku.

 

Your make the Sith sound so... Thomas Paine-ish.

Or at least so... 'Tis the business of little minds; and high midichlorian-counts, to shrink in the face of adversity. We the Sith, admire the man who grows brave by reflection. One who never hesitates, shows no mercy towards children.

 

^^^
Or . . ."He who is the author of a war lets loose the whole contagion of hell and opens a vein that bleeds a Galactic Republic to death. That 'he' would be ME. "
~ Darth Paine