A question about Dark Empire and the Bantam Line of books

My question is if the Dark Empire series had never happened do you think the Bantam Line of Star Wars books would have been better, worse, or roughly the same.

Now two ground rules I'm basing this off:

1.Dark Empire was a huge change of pace from what Zahn did and what others like Anderson and the rest were doing or planning to do. They then had to deal with huge events like the Return of the Emperor, Boba Fett, Luke falling and so on that might've took away from time they could have used planning their own stories (this is based mainly off the KJA interview in DE TPB.

2.This is not a debate whether or not the Dark Empire series is good or not (I personnally like it). Its whether or not you think it was detrimental to the Bantam books.

 

I think the Bantam line would not have been affected as much. The NJO, however, because of the birth of Anakin, would.

 

The only 2 things that Bantam took from the DE series was Anakin Solo and Kam Solusar.

However, they are very important characters, so yeah, it'd be different.

wk

 

I hate DE, it makes stupid sense and really is just a stupid thing.

 

I think the Bantam books would be roughly the same. They virtually ignore the MAJOR events in the Dark Empire trilogy. Sadly, DE wasn't taken seriously by Bantam. I think ignoring DE was detrimental to the line of Bantam books.

 

In the Hand of Thrawn duo, Mara Jade says she doesn't think that was really Emperor Palpatine. And I agree with her.

wk

 

That's too bad...because she's completely wrong.

 

That was their one stab at merging bantam and DE ; by making Palpatine Reborn a matter of opinion on behalf of the reader. (which was a complete change from what they were previously saying inall their references)

Missed opportunities abound in the old bantam line.

 

I think that the Bantam Linw made a mistake by mostly ignoring DE...

 

Aside from Anakin's birth, I think that DE was a waste.

It should be called "We have no ideas for an original villan, so we will just re-use the old one!"

It was a blight on Star Wars.

 

DE may not have had a significant imapct on the Bantam (excluding Anakin, of course), but it is important to the EU nevertheless. I think Bantam would have been better off if DE was adapted into novel form after the comic series was released. This way a wider range of fans would have had access to DE as well as giving the series more exposure, hence more importance in the eyes of the fans.

 

It would have been a lot better had it had more working with the Thrawn Trilogy

 

Probably so Reaper but we all know WHO screwed that possibility up, don't we?

As to the lack of originality, in what sense is any villain original in SW?

Any Imperial is a rip off from the films, any Dark Jedi similar.

Fact is DE makes sense, it requires a bit of thought but it works and works well.

KJA worked with Veitch to ensure the changes meshed, Zahn refused to and later attempted to kill DE by stealth. He has since been punished by being stripped of his high ranking and regard amongst SW fans, due entirely to his own foolishness.

My own dislike of NJO has enabled me to undertand the anti-DE crowd's viewpoint, but I have yet to dismiss NJO in the way I see some people dismiss DE. A few are in this thread, including surprisingly, Chissdude.

Jedi Ben

 

I think that the pace and events of the DE series is astronomical compared to the rest of the EU. In one series the Emperor, a whole slew of Dark Jedi, and Boba Fett return, the Empire magically has huge armadas, at least 2 different superweapons show up, and Luke falls to the dark side.

 

Ah yes, another disapprover of Zahn. I hate to burst your bubble, but not ALL SW fans dislike his writing and hold him in low regard. I am in admiration of Zahn and his work, just because its not so fresh anymore doesn't mean my opinions are going to change. Those of you who saw SW in 1977, have your feelings abut that movie really changed ? I really don't get this sudden swing against Zahn, i really don't. The bloke doesn't publish a SW book in 3 years then all of a sudden all these people who considered him near-divine are bagging him. This is a sign of unstable minds

I also reject that a series of five books and the author of them can somehow become completely useless because of 1 sentence. That really doesn't make sense at all.

 

James, I speak of the fact Zahn wanted nothing to do with DE, so it had to be part re-written


Then of course he starts dissing the series. Mara Mouthpiece was just one crag on the iceberg

 

Jedi Ben...
If only what you said could be confirmed as true. I think there is a lot of truth to it. It is the old saying "what goes around, comes around." Or put another way, "God don't like ugly." And we know that Zahn's actions have been less than professional when it comes to fellow Star Wars creators/works - the most glaring example being Dark Empire.

I think that as "newer" Star Wars fans who joined up with the marketing blitz of HttE realize there's a larger world out there and see the problems Zahn had much clearer. For example, when people have problems with how Del Rey and NJO handle things (especially with the kick-off) regarding characterization, continuity, etc. They must of course quickly realize that Del Rey was must better in all respects than Zahn was with Bantam's kickoff series.

As fans mature and are able understand when an author calls fellow Star Wars creators "liars and connivers," for example, of course they may be turned off by the lack of professionalism. As fans mature and are able to understand how damaging it is when a franchise universe who's major strength is its continuity and handling of characters and how it is diminished when an author tries to screw over that strength all because of his own personal feelings. I think as those fans who were hooked through Zahn mature and become professionals themselves, they may see him outside of their childishly naive fandom perspective and through the eyes of adults. He doesn't look as good as he once may have.

Warlord_Ken...
"I think that the pace and events of the DE series is astronomical compared to the rest of the EU. In one series the Emperor, a whole slew of Dark Jedi, and Boba Fett return, the Empire magically has huge armadas, at least 2 different superweapons show up, and Luke falls to the dark side."

That's why it probably is one of Bantams biggest mistakes - downplaying the importance of Dark Empire. The epic story which took place sent shockwaves throughout the GFFA. It was very strange that we didn't see any shred of this epic "astronomical" story in TTT, especially given that Zahn knew about it. (Of course their other largest mistake would be in ignoring nearly everything which came before them. ? One wonders how well Del Rey would fare had they done the same thing.)

Ask yourselves how you would feel had Del Rey ignored Mara Jade, Corran Horn, Talon Karrde, Jacen Solo, Jaina Solo, Tenal Ka, Baron Fel, Supreme Commander Pellaeon, Han and Leia's marriage, the New Republic...

That's essentially what happened when Bantam took over the reigns. And is essentially the same question as asking what it would be like if Bantam should have ignored key events as well. IMO, that wouldn't be a good thing - and in Bantam's case, it most definitely wasn't a good thing.

DaJames2...
"Ah yes, another disapprover of Zahn. I hate to burst your bubble, but not ALL SW fans dislike his writing and hold him in low regard."

Each to their own. There's people who very much enjoy the Glove of Darth Vader series, the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy and Planet of Twilight. So, you like Zahn. Good for you.

"Those of you who saw SW in 1977, have your feelings abut that movie really changed ? I really don't get this sudden
swing against Zahn, i really don't."

There's major differences. SW in 1977 was a classic movie - something special. HttE in 1991 wasn't. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Star Wars has gotten better with time. The Star Wars EU and its tight continuity has only helped to show just how obvious Zahn's problems really were over time.

"The bloke doesn't publish a SW book in 3 years then all of a sudden all these people who considered him near-divine are bagging him."

Actually, I don't know if that's the case. A lot of people disliked him already. However, it seems that he turned off a whole lot of fans with his last major SW work - HoT, which is the book you referred to. So, it's understandable that those who's minds may have changed because of that series would tend to vo

 

Reaper-Fett, it's true that Mara has not always been the most reliable source of info and she wasn't even present in DE. Veitch/Anderson ignored Zahn, Zahn ignores DE, it's a vicious cycle.

I knew it was only a matter of time before the slumbering giant of Ghengis awoke to comment on this thread.

I'm glad to know that you think it's ok that i like Zahn. Doesn't mean i worship the ground he stands on (after all, that's my ground), or agree with everything he puts forward. It does mean that my opinion of Zahn's work been of good quality has not changed since i first read the books. In the SW : ANH comparison, i was attempting to point out that at the time it was considered really good, and that general opinion hasn't changed. Sure, later you can look back and say that this book was better than Zahn's or that book was really weak compared to Zahn, but that's not what i'm on about. It's whether you think that Zahn's books have quality. If you do, then in your opinion, they do. If you don't then in your opinion, they don't. What i don't get is after several years of looking at these boards people have gone from putting Zahn up on a pedestal (only a couple of years ago) to now people are coming out everywhere putting him down. I don't get it, that's all. Perhaps it's the influx of new ppl, but i've seen long-time posters change their tune, too.

All i think is that if you have an opinion on quality, then it should stay, not all of a sudden change. In case you haven't noticed Ghengis, this puts you in the normal peope category

 

The funny thing is I like Zahn's works.

Thrawn is a great villain for me simply because without the Force he nearly defeats the Republic and Jedi. He simply uses tactics, intuition and strategy, carefully and with precision. Yes, his weakness was hubris, thus Rukh became his nemesis.

HOT however started well and VOTF then cast a big cloud over the work with a fgew big mistakes, most of which centred upon Mara Jade.

In 1998-1999 I became aware of Zahn's comments and views about other autors and their ideas and those coments devalue his work, they diminished his books.

In 1998-1999 Aaron alston started writing, mixing politics and action in much the way Zahn and later Stackpole did, but with greater verve and ruthlessness. At the same time it became clear that Zahn and Stackpole worked together, thus Zahn did not slag his work. Further stackpole erred in much the way Zahn did with his favourite character of Corran Horn, in XW8 and IJ.

The point is, I was irked by VOTF at the time of pblication and what I found out subseqently did not help that feeling. I began to see a similar pattern to that I saw in 1994-1996 with KJA, who was at the time the most prolific author in SW. He did JAT then the TOTJ then Darksaber, he seemed to be doing his best to dominate SW. I didn't like that, this was before GL started screwing up with the Prequels remeber, nor did I like Stackpole and Zahn's attempt that followed in 1996-1999.

I like the idea of the Chiss and the Hand Of Thrawn, I liked the idea the dark side had had a subtle infuence on Luke's actions since DE. I didn't like how he fond out about it or the absolving of Mara Jade. NJO's BP has dealt with that problem very well, despite subsequent characterization.

Zahn, however, is his own worst enemy.

Jedi Ben

 

Veitch/Anderson ignored Zahn, Zahn ignores DE

I think Veitch wanted to use elements of TTT


Thrawn is a great villain for me simply because without the Force he nearly defeats the Republic and Jedi. He simply uses tactics, intuition and strategy, carefully and with precision. Yes, his weakness was hubris, thus Rukh became his nemesis.

Yeah, and he was made so good he could only be beaten by a series of coincedences

 

Welll I put that down to TLC being a homage to ROTJ. The whole TTT effectively mimicked the original trilogy.

So, Thrawn's apparent victory at Bilbringi was always going to be pulled out from under him, just as the Emperor's was in ROTJ.

In that case, lessee, we had:

Intervention of the Care Bears in military camouflage
Rebels getting insanely lucky
Imperials not putting great metal grids to prevent access to the DS reactor
The Emperor just happens to get betrayed by his right hand guy at the point of triumph

See what I mean? TLC is ROTJ-redx.

By the by Reaper I've read DJ and posted a review in 2 parts on the official thread, the one with 160+ replies, see you there.

Jedi Ben

p.s. I also heard Veitch was willing to use TTT and work with Zahn, but the other didn't want to.

 

Already read it

 

Heh.

As you've no doubt noticed since Rebirth I've been far more sympathetic to Kyp. funny how things turn around.

As for Jaina, I am consistently despising her.

Not that you could tell.

Jedi Ben

 

lol



Well, thanks to Gandolf, I'm now clinging to DJ and loving every moment, especially the parts where they put an effort into Kyp

 

It should be called "We have no ideas for an original vill(i)an, so we will just re-use the old one!" - SithSpit777

Funny, I'd say the same thing about Lucas reusing the Death Star in RotJ. Because Star Wars is a serial, I'd almost be insulted if we didn't see the same villains over and over. Almost...