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CT A question for Imperial sympathizers.

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by CodenameShamrock, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. RC-2473

    RC-2473 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 14, 2015
    I'm not really an 'imperial sympathiser' (blowing up planets is not justified okay?) but I generally don't like good vs. evil stories with a blatant slant, especially when 'good guys' do bad things but in this case bad things are good because the 'good guys' are doing them. I hope the st gives a more balanced view of things. it's always more interesting to get a real look into multiple sides of the same story.

    however, I don't think we'd need to wait for the st for this to happen. I think empire strikes back is actually fairly balanced. if you watch the battle of hoth by itself, it seems to do justice to both sides. then we get more time spent with the imperial officers, and moments like captain needa's sacrifice really humanise them. we get a more serious look into the 'villains' ideology and even get a hint of once noble intentions from vader. the 'good vs evil' stuff becomes more about the characters than the conflict itself. etc.
     
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The thing is that Vader's very nature makes it difficult to understand him. He's very temperamental and violent, not to mention that Ozzel doesn't understand the Force. So his failure is only partially his and more on Vader who does a 180 and expects his troops to know this.

    You can predict. Anyone can predict if they are predictable. Tarkin was in that regard. She had believed rightly that he wouldn't just shoot first and ask questions later. That's not Tarkn's style. If you read someone's military record, then you know that. Even with the equivalent of a nuclear bomb at his disposal. Her prediction, anticipation, whatever was right on everything except blowing up Alderaan anyway.

    Well, that's not her fault that someone else did that and Tarkin jumped the gun. She cannot anticipate if someone else made use of the base after they left. But she can anticipate that Tarkin would look into the planet. The fact is that no planet in "Star Wars" appears to be uninhabited. We've seen lifeforms on every planet shown across six films. Whether they're human, Duros, Wookiee or Wampa, there is life on these planets. Even animal life is still life. So already your argument fails.
     
  3. Admiral Volshe

    Admiral Volshe Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Maybe we're just weird (as in myself and the characters), but I don't find it difficult to understand Vader at all. Ozzel's very expressions in the scene with Piett, Veers, and Vader show me that he does understand Vader as well. I'd watch the scene. Michael Sheard did do an excellent job at portraying Ozzel's emotions. I think Ozzel just has really bad judgment.

    But you don't know what she even predicted. If we're going under the impression she said Dantooine to buy time and/or to get him to not destroy Alderaan... 50% of that failed. I don't care if she believed rightly or not. She couldn't have said anything with 100% certainty, and I don't believe even 80% certainty.

    She can't anticipate that, but as we now know Dantooine is inhabited. Therefore, she is partially at fault. She is taking the risk that there is life and Tarkin is going for it with a superweapon.
    Plus we have been talking about sentient life the last 5 pages. If it was non-sentient life as well, no, there would be no argument on anyone's side.
     
  4. enigmaticjedi

    enigmaticjedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2011

    Tarkin said that Dantooine is "too remote to make an effective demonstration." An imperial officer later says a rebel base has been deserted for some time. This is all we know. No one says Dantooine is inhabited. In fact, the circumstances seem to imply that Dantooine is less populated than Alderaan. In which case, these are Leia's choices:

    --Do nothing: Alderaan dies, but the Alliance has a chance to destroy the station to save more planets
    -- Give up the Rebel base: The Alliance dies, and more planets are threatened with destruction
    -- Say Dantooine: Dantooine dies, but the Alliance has a chance to destroy the station to save more planets.

    Of all the choices available, this seems to be the best one.

    On a side note: I love how Leia was technically honest in that scene. Dantooine did have a Rebel base there in the past. Tarkin did not ask where the current Rebel base was. [face_laugh]
     
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  5. Admiral Volshe

    Admiral Volshe Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    We don't know from the films, but it was said in TCW (as we all like to refer to the TV shows).

    The argument wasn't that it was the best choice, we agreed it was in the situation a few pages back. The argument was that it was morally grey and in theory, a better decision could have been made if there was an uninhabited planet. I honestly don't know why it's still an argument. :p
     
  6. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    No one has said blowing up planets is justifiable as far as I know.
     
  7. enigmaticjedi

    enigmaticjedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Makes sense. This topic has been going on for a long time lol.

    Interesting, when was that said in TCW? Was it Season 6? That's the only season I don't have.
     
  8. Admiral Volshe

    Admiral Volshe Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I saw it on Brain Invaders' (S2E8) wiki page, someone else in this thread (probably Iron_lord ) expanded on that.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Sometimes I think TCW existed for the sole purpose of trolling the films.
     
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  10. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    Sometimes I think TCW existed for the sole purpose of trolling the films.
    ---------------

    That's what Ahsoka Tano has hung around her neck: "trolling the films since 2008"
     
  11. Admiral Volshe

    Admiral Volshe Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    That's why I don't usually consider TCW canon, but since it kept getting brought up... why the heck not. :p
     
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  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    I think it is a case of Vader has one set of standards that he demands his officers to follow, but when they try to fit that mold, he gets upset. Vader is temperamental and more so with the knowledge that Luke exists.

    Percentage doesn't matter. What matters is what she was attempting. Yes, she is taking a risk. And she made a wise choice to use an abandoned base and anticipate that Tarkin isn't trigger happy.


    Oh, so screw Wampas? They have to be Twi'leks?

    The Sith and Tarkin did. As did Poogle the Lesser. That's why they created a weapon that could blow up planets, rather than just rely on capital ships and military occupation. They can justify it as the fear of the Empire.
     
  13. Admiral Volshe

    Admiral Volshe Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Vader has standards and they knew the standards. He didn't just randomly decide to choke people. Sure his ways of dealing with failure weren't right, but that doesn't mean he did it haphazardly.

    You're using the ends to justify the means here.

    Nobody said screw the wampas. :p
     
  14. Hogarth Wrightson

    Hogarth Wrightson Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 2, 2015
    I'll say it! Screw the wampas! Screw them in their frosty ice caverns! :p
     
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  15. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    Not what I meant DS and I think you know it. For future ref any more quoting in this thread by you shall be ignored. I see no point in speaking when discussion is not to be had.
     
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    That's not what I meant. I meant that if Vader was the type to say, "I want proof, not leads!" and then decides that leads will do without telling someone, then that is on him and not Ozzel.

    That's how the Empire works.


    That's my point. Going by the films and the cartoons, there appears to not a single planet that is devoid of life.


    Actually, what I said is accurate. That is how one can justify blowing up a planet. And there is always discussion to be had. You just don't want to admit that you think letting people die so that you can not burn in hell for lying is the best course of action.
     
  17. Admiral Volshe

    Admiral Volshe Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Vader never said that. I never said that either.

    And that makes my argument any less correct?
     
  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    We don't know what Vader said before the film started.

    It isn't about you being correct or incorrect. It is about points of view. From the Sith point of view, the ends justify the means all the time. That's how Palpatine was able to turn Anakin and Dooku. That's why Tarkin and Motti supported them and the Death Star project.
     
  19. Admiral Volshe

    Admiral Volshe Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    We have more proof that he didn't say that than proof that he did. :)

    First, Sith =/= Empire. We know that people in the Empire didn't even believe in the Sith or Jedi (or even the Force). Motti was most definitely not using a Sith point of view. Second, they supported the Death Star project because it provided a way for them to eliminate the Rebellion and potentially stop any new rebellion from forming. Personally, I believe their logic was flawed, but that doesn't change their beliefs that it would put an end to rebellious behaviour.
     
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Tarkin and Motti both know that Palpatine was a Sith. That didn't stop Motti from mocking Vader. To Motti, Vader was a goon. Palpatine was the one that they feared. Hence Jerjerrod's reaction to Palpatine's coming to Endor.
     
  21. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    Tarkin and Motti both know that Palpatine was a Sith
    --------

    Can I borrow your copy of the original or ANH where this is stated? it is unfortunately absent from any of the UK viewings I have seen.
     
  22. Hogarth Wrightson

    Hogarth Wrightson Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 2, 2015
    Sinister tends to approach these questions from an omniscient, retrofitted, posthoc canonical point of view. I think he's aware that, of course, Lucas had not yet decided that Palpatine was a Sith lord as of the writing of the first film. He just prefers to argue from the standpoint of facts established long after the original scenes were written and produced.
     
  23. Admiral Volshe

    Admiral Volshe Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    When was it stated that Motti knew? I can see Tarkin knowing. They both knew Darth Vader was Sith, but I don't see Motti knowing Palpatine was a Sith.

    I can get into Jerjerrod, but first, are you sure you want my analysis of that? :p
     
  24. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    exactly AV,

    Motti knowing makes no sense to what he actually says in the films.

    It would be like me saying to Mok Yak face: "stop telling us about the land you call New Zealand Yak, your sad devotion to that mythical land..." when I perfectly know for a fact New Zealand exists.
     
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  25. Hogarth Wrightson

    Hogarth Wrightson Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 2, 2015
    I still think it works in retrospect, though. The Emperor may be so secluded and surrounded by advisors that no one knows or even suspects that he is a Force-user.
     
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