A question for ROTJ bashers

For the bashers of ROTJ. Was it ONLY the ewoks that made you dislike ROTJ? I will admit, I probably would have rather had wookies than ewoks (which is what Lucas originally intended supposedly). But ewoks did not really annoy me all that much. It wasnt enough to ruin the good parts of the movie for me. Surely you must have liked all the stuff with Jabba's Palace and the Rancor.

 

Good question.

 

to tell u the truth i think for me it is the ewoks. i'm not saying i dont like rotj. i love it. i like it more then anh. but when i think of ROTJ i think of ewoks. an i just hate that. at least when i think of TPM i think of qui gon, obi wan, and darth maul fighting. and the pod race, not jar jar and teh gungans.

 

While I would never consider myself a "basher", I do have *issues* with ROTJ. My biggest complaint is not the Ewoks, but the radical transformation of the character of Han Solo. He's my second favorite SW character, but the character Harrison Ford is half-heatedly trying to portray in ROTJ is anything but the Han Solo I know and love--I despise this travesty GL has perpetrated on SW's fans. It's like the fat Elvis version of Han Solo. Nobody wants to see that. I'd prefered to have Han die in the carbonite than to become the Fat Elvis version of himself. Have Boba kill him, I wouldn't care, just don't make him all goody-goody and best friends with Lando when the last time he ever saw Lando (get it), Lando had just turned him and everyone he loved over to Vader!!

I also have issues with the whole "certain point of view" BS since it turned the venerable Old Ben Kenobi into a big fat liar.

But perhaps my greatest quarrel with ROTJ is the final duel between Vader and Luke. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the dialogue and the tension in the scene--it's fantastic. But the choreography of the actual duel sickens me.

GL made Vader transform from this insurmountable, prolific one-handed fighting Sith bada$$ in ESB to this clumsy imbecile who's constantly walking backwards and falls down on the railings, unable to block Luke's same repetitive move 5 times in a row while Vader doesn't even attempt to move his lightsaber to parry ... . Why? Why!!??! Damn you GL!! Vader is not just some sh^t fighter. He wouldn't just fall down,
would he ...

Since I am an uber-SW geek, I can justify Vader's lack of coherent fighting strategy by saying "Oh, well Vader couldn't kill his son. That's why he let Luke beat him so badly". But most casual SW fans don't even accept this answer. Most of my friends don't even see things like this. I'm constantly being told Luke is the best Jedi ever because he kicked Vader's a$$ after training for a week or so. When I tell them Vader let Luke win, all I here is "You're full of it".

While I admit that I am a die-hard Vader fan, I can accept his defeat at the hands of his son, really I can. But the way it was carried out just sickens me. It's very difficult to watch because it gives a false impression of what's really going on. Seriously, if I could travel back in time, the first thing I'd do is force GL into making a better lightsaber sequence in ROTJ. No, actually the first thing I'd do is find out who really killed JFK, but then I'd stop GL from ruining the lightsaber duel.

See, I just have minor issues with ROTJ, that's all
lol ...

Oh, and don't even get me started on the Emperor being thrown down a shaft by a one-handed Vader. I ... it's just ...

 

Well, I guess I'm a ROTJ basher. Although I don't spend much time actualling bashing it, it is my least favorite SW movie. So to answer your question - No, for me it's not just the Ewoks. In fact the Ewoks aren't even one of my biggest problems with the movie.

#1) Boba Fett's death. Not the fact that he died, but the stunningly anti-climatic way he died. I was 10 when ROTJ came out, and, like every other kid on the planet at the time, a HUGE SW fan. Boba Fett was my favorite character right behind Han. When Boba flew across to fight Luke I was quite literally on the edge of my seat. When the Sarlaac burped, I couldn't believe it, I think I was the only pissed off little kid in the theater(BTW, in an almost surreal moment, I would relive this scene 16 years later when everyone in the theater cheered Darth Maul's death).

#2) Han Solo. What happened in that block of carbonite? Did being frozen somehow castrate the poor guy? He's such a dud in ROTJ it's nauseating.

#3) Leia.
a.) "Somehow, I've always know." Huh? Could she possibly have shown any less emotion? Ok, I know she was high, but still... at least try and fake it.
b.) "Luke, I'm so sorry." (I'm paraphrasing on this one, don't have a script handy) Luke is your twin brother, and Vader is Luke's father...*cue jeopardy music*... that means he's your dad too! Why doesn't that click with her? Shouldn't she respond too that in some way?
c.) "Of course I love him, he's my brother." The way she says it is like "duh!", she just found out herself but Han is a dope for not knowing.

#4) The Dual. I'm assuming there's some EU reason why Vader is suddenly geriatric for this fight, but why not let the movie audience in on it? Luke beats him with a temper tantrum. Ugh.

#5) The Rancor(sp?). No comments really needed here, we've all seen it.

#6) Muppets. Not just the ewoks though, the green pig guards too. The big bouncy full body suits on those pigs just seemed so out of place to me.
As for the Ewoks, it's just how lame they make the stormtroopers look. I'm a fan of villains. In ANH and ESB stormtroopers were to be feared. Where they went bad things happened. Jawas were slaughtered, relatives were BBQ'ed, and oh the property damage. In ROTJ you could insert the Homer sound effect "D'oh!" in a couple of dozen places. "D'oh! Sticks!"


Well, there you go, Ewoks finished sixth on my personal list of what's wrong with ROTJ.

 

All valid points RogueSith and I must say I agree with every one.

BTW, don't you find the Emperor being thrown down a shaft a bit lame as well? I see it didn't make your list (although you probably didn't have time to write out every little grievance you had with the film).

 

Yes, I don't care for that one either, but it would be further down the list.

I think if the finale would have started out Luke vs. Vader, then became Luke vs. Sidious, then turned Sidious vs. Vader, and then Sidious vs. Vader and Luke, that could have been amazing, but that seems to cross over into the land of fanboy fantasy.

 

This is a good question.

Alot of people have touched on my major points so let me agree and add one or two.

1)What happened to Han? His transformation takes the fun out of his character and makes his relationship w/ leia and the rebellion boring.

2)Boba Died like a sucker. Ever notice how in ESB, Boba is one of maybe 4 characters that stand up to vader and refuse to take * from him. Scary.

3)Speaking of Scary, what happened to vader? the vader of ESB was an evil scary guy. He killed his own men. He changed the deal with lando. He froze han in carbonite. In ROTJ he's gained 40 pounds, cant fight, somehow is not evil anymore because his son showed up? Disapointing.

4)What happens to the imperial navy when the death star is destroyed? do they turn tail and run?

5)ewoks are a stupid idea. period.

6)lando conveniently goes from head of a backwater mining facility to general leading the attack on the death star?!?!? The folks in the regular rebelion ranks, working hard to get promoted, must get pretty annoyed by the people who show up out of nowhere to lead the show (luke in ANH is actually in command of some other xwings is another example of this but to a lesser degree because at least he's the main character!)

7)the silly childish tone of the film as seen in sarlac burp, jabbas muppet guards, ewoks, chewie's tarzan yell... ouch.

8)the ineptitude of stormtroopers. These are the same guys who stormed the blockade runner in ANH. In ROTJ theyre the keystone cops.

9)ROTJ marks the begining of too many coincidences. Lucas saw he had a good thing in "I am your father" and decided "wouldnt it be neet if luke and leia were siblings?" (as someone mentioned above, leia's reaction to this in underwhelming at best)

10)The new death star. I can see the discussion behind this one (both at Lucas Ranch and at the Imperial City on Corscucant) "What can we do next? I know, that death star we had a few years back was a great idea. Sure the rebels blew it up w/ 30 little ships, but that was a fluke. Lets make another one. Only this one will be bigger or something, and we'll tell the rebels where its at this time" Couldnt they think of some other weapon or something?

11)How did luke become a jedi between ESB and ROTJ? wierd.

12)ever notice the differnce in the opening scroll between ANH,ESB on the one hand and ROTJ and PT on the other :
ANH:"It is a period of civil war" - that just sucks you right on in doesnt it?
ESB:"It is a dark time for the rebellion"- that just sounds cool
ROTJ:... i used to have it memorized but i honestly cant even remember it right now.
TPM:something about trade disputes? boring.
AOTC:???
(I think if someone will help me fill these in my point will be made, although the fact that i cant remember makes my point pretty well i think)

Just so i am not labeled a hater, here's some things i like about ROTJ.

1)Leia's outfit in jabba's palace
2)when the emperor says "young fool, only now at the end do you understand" ... "and now young skywalker, you will die" nice.
3)Lightsabers are cool.

out.


Language

 

I don't give a * about Boba Fett's pathetic death scene in ROTJ because (if you are a BF-fanboy, you might want to stop reading this post about now or you might just sh^t a brick) Boba Fett is pathetic!! I don't know when exactly you guys think he talked back to Vader, but you are obviously watching a different version of ESB than I am. In the ESB version I watch, Vader says "No disintegrations", and Boba replies "As you wish"!?!?! "As you wish"!!?! That's showing disrespect? lol. That's talking back to Vader? lol. That's taking it to the man? lol. For the rest of the movie, Boba is whinning like a baby, "Oh, you can't kill Han or I won't get my money, poor me"--boo hoo! Maybe that's when you guys think BF stands up to Vader, when BF nags Vader that Han is no good to him dead--but did you notice how BF mutters this to the BACK of Vader's helmet. Oh yeah, BF challenged Vader's authority on that one. BF isn't going to take * from Vader in that scene--Oh, could you please remind me if Vader decided to change his mind about torturing Han or making him the guinea pig for the carbon freezing process. Thanks . The fact of the matter is Boba Fett sucks! Case and point, BF has worse accuracy than the Stormtroopers on Endor when he tries shooting at Luke in both ESB and ROTJ. Obviously he can't fight or he wouldn't be the one at the bottom of the sarlacc pit. BF can't do anything really except stand in the background and try to look cool so he can sell some merchandise.

[puts flame proof jacket on]
I've got a bad feeling about this.


Langauge

 

Mobart Zhumba, Roghe Sith, I agree with you about how pathetic Vader fights, and how utterly short the lightsaber duel is in ROTJ. I mean, even though Vader is supposed to be more of a softy in this movie, that doesnt mean he has to fight like a *. Even in the Super Nintendo ROTJ video game, he is a lot easier to kill than he is in TESB video game. In TESB, his energy meter goes across the whole dam screen, and it takes a while to defeat him. In ROTJ, you can easily defeat him in a minute or so.

However, I disagree that the way the emporer died was pathetic. Although I could think of other interesting ways he could have died, I like the way Vader picked him up like he was his * and threw him down the shaft. It made me think of BRAVEHEART when King Edward through that gay guy out the window.

By the way, I have always figured the reason Han was kind of a "dud" in ROTJ was b/c he was * whipped by Leia. So it didnt bother me all that much.

Language

 

"I like the way Vader picked him up like he was his * and threw him down the shaft. It made me think of BRAVEHEART when King Edward through that gay guy out the window"

lol, good analogy, Rpeugh . But again, my problem is with how the actual deed is carried out. Vader's got one working hand and a stub for the other, yet he can grapple the Emperor? I just don't see how the Emperor can't get out of a one-handed grapple. Before the PT came out and Anakin was made into the chosen one and all, I always thought it would have been better if Luke, Leia, and Vader teamed up to take out the Emperor. Now that GL has made Vader the chosen one though, Vader had to kill the Emperor on his own, but I just don't like the way it was executed.


Language

 

1) The Battle of Endor. "An entire legion of my best troops awaits them!" Well, little did Palpatine know that the Rebels would recruit an entire legion of the fiercest teddy bears in the galaxies to combat his stormies. Ugh. Put in a heck of a lot of more Ewoks, have a heck of a lot more die, and show that the stormtroopers are still figures to be feared. And the space battle could use some fixing up as well. Put in more capital ships, and make them DO SOMETHING!!! The Star Destroyers just sitting there irks me.

2) The Jabba sequence. Leave Jedi Rocks in the background, please. Leave out Boba's flirtation. CG the rancor in all the scenes any of its body parts appear in the same shot as Luke. Tone down the muppets just a bit, or at least make them look more...realistic. I'm okay with Boba's "death," since he comes back in the EU, but if he didn't, that'd definitely be on my list.

3) The final lightsaber duel. Music: great. Dialogue: great. Choreography: not so great. Sure, Luke's strong in the Force and all, but Vader should be able to take a lot more than a few uncoordinated attacks before dropping to the floor and spreading out his arms, just begging to be disemboweled. Make the fight longer, and make it BETTER. It's perfect up until Vader falls over. I'd like to see him fight back instead of just retreating for the whole last engagement.

4) Do something about the acting, please!!! Have you noticed how it slid downhill since ESB? Fix up Luke and Leia's lines on Endor. "I know. Somehow...I've always known." Oh, please. If that's true, she's got something seriously wrong with her. And shouldn't she be the least bit dismayed that Darth Vader is Luke's father, and Luke is her brother, and thusly Vader is her father as well? The same Vader who tortured her aboard the first Death Star, who stood by and watched as her home planet was destroyed, who cut down Obi-Wan Kenobi, who tortured Han and froze him in carbonite, who cut off Luke's hand, and did several other unscrupulous things? And why is Lando a general? That says something about the Rebel Alliance, that they promote some guy to general after doing absolutely nothing instead of someone who DESERVES it. Icky icky poo!

 

Jedi used to be the weakest in the Saga until The Phantom Mess came along.....

Weak and uneven a film as Jedi is, it still has some redeming qualities:

97% of the Jabba sequence still has me on the edge of my seat. Using this portion of the movie to make a point about the Phantom Mess - Throughout the whole Jabba scene, there was genuine dramatic tension. There is a sense of urgency and potential threat for the good guys to work through. Keeping the audience on the edge of their seats wondering if they would get out of the sticky, life or death, situation.

The space Armada battle above endor kicks A**!!

*some* of the Duel with Vader/Anikin & Luke.

Now for the flaws....

Lawrence Kasdans horrendous script.

(the Late) Richard Marquands uneven direction. this is not totaly the poor man's fault. Having Lucas breathe down your neck every day of shooting with a crappy script is not the best of filming conditions.

The story itself. Basicly, I will just say that I agree with everyone elses posts regarding this issue.

 

It was the Ewoks that did it for me. I hate them. Also the way Vader falls before his hand is sliced off is totally fake. That annoys me too. I don't HATE ROTJ, its just little things like Ewoks (no pun intended) that piss me off.

 

ROTJ is by far the weakest of the SW movies.

I hate Luke's character in this movie more than any other, and his mongaloid face and catholic priest outfit only add to it.

The baseball bat lightsaber makes me mad.

Id be just as unhappy with Boba Fett's death if a large shadow started growing underneath him, he looked up, opened a small umbrella, looked at the camera, and said "Yipe" as an anvil fell on his head. They might as well have done that.

But by far the worst is the Luke/Vader "Doo-el." The end when Luke "wants to kill" Vader, Vader is just hanging on to the rail with his lightsaber in the same spot, while Luke strikes the lightsabre over and over and over. Its ridiculous how hes actually TRYING to hit the LIGHTSABER and not his enemy. Its like two kids playing with toy swords, actually more concerned with hitting the SWORDS together, rather than striking their opponent.



On a side note, the ewoks are cool.

And the puppet version of Sy Snootles is one of my favorite characters.

 

* all you guys, ROTJ is my favorite Star Wars movie by a long shot. Your points are all fanboy-with-too-much-time-on-their-hands drivel! Just listen to the emperor's theme while he's feeding it to Luke!



P.S. Bobba Fett is the worst character in Star Wars, maybe tied for last with Jar Jar at best. It would have been a more fitting end for the 'bounty hunter' if Jabba ate his stupid @$$.

Language

 

"Your points are all fanboy-with-too-much-time-on-their-hands drivel"

I wish this were true, but unfortunately, most of the complaints against ROTJ listed in this thread are valid. Han and Leia are but travesties of their former selves--there is no debating that. Han Solo turned into the Fat Elvis and I'd like to know why. Vader was turned into a clumsy fighter--that is no fanboy exaggeration. The same guy who killed countless number of Jedi falls down and doesn't even try to get up, lol. Hamill decides to attack Vader's lightsaber, lol. These aren't fanboy exaggerations.

 

Luke seriously is beating the crap out of Vaders red blade. Oooh, Hes so angry at that blade!!...

COME ON!

These arent fanboy arguments with too much time on their hands. This is some lame crap!

ROTJ is the one SW film I wouldnt like if it wasnt Star Wars.

 

MobartZmuda is right-

But rather than call the characters in ROTJ the fat elvis version of themselves, (some people like the fat elvis) I have a far better analogy in mind. One that we can all agree on.

Luke, Leia, and yes, Han are all....
the TPM Yoda version of themselves.

Yoda in TPM was nothing like Yoda in any way. WHY? Who knows, but all can agree that he is AWFUL. He doesnt even LOOK like Yoda.

Such are the characters of ROTJ.

In fact, I think ROTJ Luke (after his accident, that is)looks kinda like TPM Yoda...

 

Honestly though... I'll never understand the hate towards the ROTJ light sabre fight. Luke BEAT Vadar's aging cyborg *ss because he had him all confused about his emotions, get over it already.

 

Maybe thats true.







But you cant refute that it just plain...

looks stupid.

 

It really does look stupid, he is just beating Vader's saber like he's trying to braek it. But what Kevin954_ said makes sense. Maybe Luke didn't want to kill Vader as is evident when right after he cuts off his hand he stops attacking him. He could have been struggling with his conflicting emotions at the time, but it really does look stupid.

 

Vader's aging cyborg ass? According to the information provided, TPM is 32 years before ANH which means...Vader is 41 in ANH and at most, 45 in ROTJ. Which means, Sebastian Shaw was not an appropriate person to portray him.

One thing nobody has hit on about ROTJ is Luke's swordfighting "skills" in the fight above the Sarlacc. Check it out again and think about how Maul fights and it is just sad.

What we must realize is that George Lucas is a great idea man but not always so good with dialogue or continuity. And I have to say, he doesn't do what the majority of SW fans feel he should. I've heard him say that he is making these movies for himself. If that is so, he should listen to others.

I have a question related to the final "duel". Everyone has seen the still picture of Vader leaning to the side and Luke getting ready to swing down. I swear to this day I can't determine what the round thing is Vader's lightsaber appears to be sticking out of.

Anyway, about the Emporer's death, Palpatine must surely be in his 80s by then. Not going to get away from Vader real easily by physical force. And Vader is strong enough in ANH to lift a grown man by the neck one handed, why not some old dude?

As to Han, you guys forget he's had a supposedly life changing 6 months in Carbonite. Might be hard to bounce back from. Also, much of his appeal in ANH and ESB is because he is an outlaw who may run off at any minute to pay old debts. By Jedi, he's got the girl and Jabba is gone so where is he going to run off too? And, this is supposed to be the final encounter. He won't be an outlaw after that.

You've got to think of Han as James Bond and ANH and Empire are like one Bond movie. Jedi, for Han, is what you would see in a Bond movie if he stayed with the girl from the previous one. There wouldn't be any romantic tension because they would already have a relationship. And the girl wouldn't be the flavor of the week either.

 

To Strider J: While its true that most people would have a life altering viewpoint after a near death situation, there are still some lingering charicteristic traits that just do not go away. Even for a fantasy/kids movie, there should be some linear grounding for the characters. Throughout Jedi, the weakly scripted characters are written to motivate a weak story. All this comes across as unbelivable and/or un-engaging for the most part. If ROTJ was a film by itself, it would die miserably in the box office.

 

"Anyway, about the Emporer's death, Palpatine must surely be in his 80s by then. Not going to get away from Vader real easily by physical force. And Vader is strong enough in ANH to lift a grown man by the neck one handed, why not some old dude?"


The problem is not that Vader can pick the Emperor up one handed, but that the Emperor cannot break out of the one-handed grapple hold. Surely if the Emperor is powerful enough to use force lightning he could also use force push or something.