PT A question for the oldtimers - did anyone actually enjoy the prequel trilogy?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Krivlos_Arkh, Feb 6, 2013.

?

I loved the OT and I think the prequels are

Great 37 vote(s) 58.7%
Awful 5 vote(s) 7.9%
Ok 21 vote(s) 33.3%
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  1. Krivlos_Arkh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2005
    star 1
    Hey guys. I'm not the old-school kind of fan - my fascination with SW started with TPM. I loved the new films as much as I loved the OT. They are different but they complete each other. I know there are a lot of prequel admirers - but mostly they are from the new generation of fans. I know the majority of oldtimers practically hate the new films, but are there really those who liked them? Because they are good, not without flaws, but still good.
  2. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3
    I liked them, and I must confess I would qualify, if not as an oldtimer, at least as a not so new-timer! I have my issues with Prequels - and yes, it would be fair to say that I have more issues with them than I did with the "Classic" three. There has been so much passionate discussion of the perceived shortcomings of the "Prequels" that I don't think much is to be gained by listing my personal take on that here - I just wanted to acknowledge that yeah, I have some issues with them, which knocked my enjoyment down a notch or two here or there. But overall? I think they were ambitious (sometimes too much so!), I think they tried something pretty unique, almost Shakespearean (to show the "fall" of a character who starts out good, in almost classic "tragic" terms), they introduced some very cool characters - Qui-Gonn, Maul, Jango Fett, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, General Grievous, to name a few! - and, at least for me, ROTS had tremendous emotional impact... it was dark, it was gripping, it was tragic (that word again), it was quite the payoff to a series that for us old timers spanned decades. The Prequels gave us the tremendous light saber battle with Maul, we got the spectacle of the arena in AOTC, we got to see Obi-Wan closer to his prime (okay, since OB is one of my favorite characters, I am clearly biased there), we got to see the epic showdown between Obi-Wan and Anakin, we got to see more of Yoda in a different context... yeah, I liked them. A lot.

    I suspect this Thread, if it takes off at all, will trend towards heated back and forth between those with an appreciation for the Prequels (not a flawless appreciation, mind you) and those who really can't stand them. I hope not, as we have plenty of discussion along those lines elsewhere, but..it is what it is. I think there ought to be a bit of room between "LOVE" and "HATE", myself.

    Shadow

    PS - I found your poll tricky. I would have liked a "VERY GOOD" category between OK and GREAT, personally...
    Last edited by SHAD0W-JEDI, Feb 7, 2013
    Frank T. and FARK2005 like this.
  3. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Same here. My first experience with the OT was the "Digitally Remastered" VHS videos, pre-Special Edition.
  4. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    The majority? Sorry, but I never saw any proof about that.

    Of course. Myself included.
  5. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    As an oldtimer, here's where I stand. These films have been retconned into the "OK" zone by lovingly rendered fan edits which have supplanted the GL version for many people. The next generation of SW fans in our family, (and in the families of our friends...,) are being raised on these edits. The thinking being that if we absolutly must count them as legitimate, then it should be the least awful version available.

    I'm thinking that there is no way that we are completely alone in this.
    Last edited by KilroyMcFadden, Feb 7, 2013
  6. Blur Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 1999
    star 4
    Being an old-skool SW fan who was raised on the OOT, I was in my late 20's when TPM was released back in '99. And, I am unapologetic in my enjoyjment of this film (and for Episodes II & III). Re: TPM, I saw it numerous times in the theatre that summer, and when it had a very limited re-release in late '99, I saw it again.

    The film actually led to my joining these boards in late August '99.
    V-2 and Cryogenic like this.
  7. YodaDooDahDay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2010
    star 3
    I was 11 in 77. I'm as old school as they get. I LOVE the prequels because they are EXACTLY what GL predicted (and warned) fans to expect WAAAAAYYY back in the late 70s when we first learned there would eventually be movies about young Ben Kenobi and Vader: that they'd be more serious, more about politics and betrayal, less about action and -- yes, he really said it -- less fun. I NEVER EVER EVER expected the prequels to be quasi-comedy space romps like eps 4-6. I expected GL to do what he did with "More American Graffiti" and "Empire" and "Temple of Doom": to throw the audience something different and unexpected. I was totally prepared for it and loved every second of it. I like the prequels because I think they're both incredibly prescient in terms of their political warnings and an accurate reflection of the complicated historical era in which they were made. I think the "flaws" hateboys love to point out are equally represented in the OT and that much of the hate is bandwagon bashing. I can't count the number of people I've talked to who start out with broad sweeping "the prequel sucked" generalities because it's a safe opening remark, but then will slowly admit to the many things they liked about the PT ("Actually, Maul was pretty cool. And Yoda fighting in Clones was pretty sweet. Yeah, I gotta admit that the Order 66 scene was one of the highlights of all the movies..."). There are a LOT of closeted PT fans who simply won't talk about it because they're just sick of the constant noise from the other "fans." I have no problem with some fans not liking the PT, but I have a BIG problem with those fans who have made it their mission to taunt those who do. Using words like "denial" is just a display of incredible arrogance about differing subjective tastes. It's no different that some loudmouth "schooling" me about my taste in music. You don't like my music, don't listen to it. But don't flap your piehole in an attempt to ruin my enjoyment of whatever it is I like. That's what far too many fans get stuck doing and it needs to just stop. It's a middle-school peeing contest about pointless bragging rights. It's nonsense.

    As for making or watching illegal "fan edits" -- These people should make thier own damn movies instead of ruining other people's art! They didn't put in the hard work or the investment of passion and creative capital to create the work so they have absolutely NO RIGHT to change or "fix" someone else's work any more than I have the right to repaint your house because your taste in color sucks or rewrite your poetry because you're obviously a no talent hack. Leave other artists' work alone and either accept it for what it is and have RESPECT for THEIR rights or walk away and find something else.
  8. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    No CGI under my roof, junior! Restore the moral fabric of our society! Ha, here's to those kids despising all Star Wars and finding stuff on their own that they appreciate.
    FRAGWAGON and Cryogenic like this.
  9. YodaDooDahDay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2010
    star 3
    Yeah kid, I also really HATE that Da Vinci painted the Mona Lisa and raped the childhoods of his fans by revising it later in his life against our wishes. Who did he think he was! And because of that I refuse to show you anything but this fan edit version of the Mona Lisa altered on a Dell by some Subway employee from Portland. So appreciate REAL ART now, junior! [face_hypnotized]
    son_of_skywalker03, V-2 and Cryogenic like this.
  10. KevinM1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 2
    I'm a child of the 1980's (actually born in 1980). I've watched the OT more times than I can count. Taking the Star Wars glasses off, I think that, for the most part, the OT is a series of solid films. Things start to get a bit sketchy in RotJ, but it's still pretty good.

    The PT is just not good. Sorry. None of the rationalizations actually make things better.

    I mean, hardly anything of consequence happens in TPM. We're introduced to Anakin, get the seeds of his issues with leaving his mother, and that's it. That's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. ANH is a simple story that largely just introduces us to characters and the state of things, but the critical difference is that ANH is fun prison escape film with rapid fire snark while TPM is a boring slog through a trade embargo.

    AotC is marred by a nonsensical plot. Dooku tells Palpatine, at the end, that "Everything is proceeding as planned." Let's look at that plan:

    They hire the bounty hunter who was used as the template for the secret clone army to assassinate Padme. Instead of doing it himself, he hires another, shapeshifting bounty hunter to do it for him. She fails, and is discovered. Jango then kills her with a weapon that would lead the Jedi back to the cloners (did he really think that no one would investigate? or that the Jedi, a galaxy-spanning organization, wouldn't have the ability to find out about it?). Kamino is 'hidden' in the Jedi Archives, but a group of children (or anyone who remembers middle school astronomy) figure out the mystery in about a minute. On Kamino, Obi-Wan learns that a Jedi named Sifo-Dyas ordered the clone army. Presumably Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi, as no one stated "Never heard of him." Jango leads Obi-Wan to Geonosis, and war begins.

    That's such a convoluted plan, with so many ways things can go wrong - what if the shapeshifter succeeded? What if she/it died during the chase? What if Jango kills/incapacitates Obi-Wan? - that it boggles the mind. Similarly, no one having a problem using an army spawned from a guy in league with the Separatists, or even researching Sifo-Dyas and why he would want to build an army, is ridiculous.

    And none of that even touches on whiny jerk Anakin.

    RotS is better because it actually has a plot, but it's filled with unnecessary contortions (Grievous), and an Anakin that most people don't care about. His fall comes across more as him embracing his inner nature rather than falling from grace, which is the critical flaw in the PT. Our first look at Anakin is of a precocious 8 year old lecturing his mother about how no one ever helps anyone. Every appearance after that is him being largely a self-centered jerk.

    To me, it appears that Lucas had several plot points he wanted to touch on - the innocence of Anakin, him falling in love, the fall to the Dark Side, and, more generally, how Palpatine took control - but had no idea how to turn them into three 120+ minute films. So, he padded them with the unnecessary (Jar-Jar, one of Maul/Dooku, Grievous, just about everything relating to the Force in TPM), his incessant desire to mirror/echo/'rhyme' with the OT (C-3PO, Tatooine in general, costumes), and pure spectacle.

    So, no... I did not enjoy the PT very much.
    vinsanity, windu4 and V-2 like this.
  11. YodaDooDahDay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2010
    star 3
    Are you referring to your "rationalizations"? If so, you're entitled to believe so. On the other hand, if you're referring to other people's views, dismissing their subjective opinions and tastes as "rationalizations" or "denial" is just arrogant and annoying. Why is there this NEED by people who don't like the PT to dismiss and heckle the films for those who do. I don't get it. Why spend ANY time on something you don't like? To just cheese off other fans?

    I'll defend your right to think the PT is "not good." Why can't PT haters have the basic courtesy of allowing others who disagree to simply enjoy what they enjoy without constantly telling them they're wrong? To me, that's the central destructive disconnect in Star Wars fandom.

    Well, if that's all true then spending any more time of your life complaining about something so awful is really a waste of time. So...
  12. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Afraid that the next generation in your family will have different taste than yours? Why not let them watch and decide what to like? I'm sorry, but that's just sad (not to mention, stupid).
  13. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    No, the majority of "oldtimers" enjoy the prequels just fine. See here:

    TPM, ratings for ages 30-44:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120915/ratings-age_3
    Median: 7

    TPM, ratings for ages 45+:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120915/ratings-age_4
    Median: 7

    AOTC, ratings for ages 30-44:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121765/ratings-age_3
    Median: 7

    AOTC, ratings for ages 45+:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121765/ratings-age_4
    Median: 7

    ROTS, ratings for ages 30-44:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121766/ratings-age_3
    Median: 8

    ROTS, ratings for ages 45+:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121766/ratings-age_4
    Median: 8
    Last edited by Count Yubnub, Feb 7, 2013
  14. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    It's more than naive to think that someone isn't going to come along and make a superior version of the vader spinoff movies at some point. Until then, we have available at least 3 major edits of the Vader backstory available to us to choose from. The poop and fart, emo Anakin versions of the PT are freely available to them to watch without restriction. In fact, several bad movie nights have actually featured those versions, and it may be the best way to watch them when you are not in the mood to take Star Wars seriously.
  15. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Hell, yes I'm an old-timer - I was in college when ANH came out. I've seen all the versions - I have original tapes, SE tapes, DVD set, and Bluray set. I love the OT. I love the PT. There may be a few more scenes I fast forward through on the PT but the PT is the one I am more likely to casually throw in the DVD player as well.

    Isn't it time to stop pitting one trilogy against the other? I'm a Star Wars fan.
    VMeran and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  16. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    I wonder if this is exacerbated by the existence of separate forums for the two trilogies [face_worried]
  17. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    you mean three trilogies now.
  18. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    @KilroyMcFadden: not yet, there are two trilogies at this point with the third to come and we can't discuss those films because there are yet no actual films to discuss (as films, so far we've just speculation). I hope to gosh we don't end up with a 3 way pitting one trilogy against two or some such.
    KilroyMcFadden likes this.
  19. KevinM1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 2
    I look at Star Wars in two ways:

    1. As a Star Wars fan
    2. As someone who is interested in filmmaking and storytelling.

    As a Star Wars fan, I can, to various degrees, enjoy almost anything put in front of me. Aside from the PT and Kevin J. Anderson novels, I have a fun time. But looking at it objectively tells me that the content isn't necessarily high quality.

    To put it another way, it's okay to like bad media. There's some media that's just so hokey or cheesy that it becomes charming. But I think it's important to understand that it's bad. Why? Because understanding storytelling can deepen one's appreciation for it. You don't need to be a music major to appreciate Beethoven or Mozart, but understanding what they did (or did not do) can make it even more meaningful. Good stories tend to have more than one layer, and those layers tend to play off of and reinforce each other.

    The PT, from a nuts-and-bolts perspective, is just bad across the board. It misses key storytelling ingredients and substitutes them with unnecessary filler. I mean, does the Prophecy really ever mean anything? No. Does Anakin being immaculately conceived mean anything? No. Does Qui-Gon's presence in the trilogy actually account for anything? No. Does Anakin's fall work on a logical/thematic level? No.

    Like I said before, looking at the trilogy as a whole, it really looks like Lucas had no idea how to connect the various disparate plot points he needed to address, and the contorted plot is evidence of that. Look at the film I dislike the most: The premise of AotC - Palpatine manipulating both sides towards war so he can capitalize on the chaos - is good. But the way it's presented is atrocious. It's too convoluted, and relies on the heroes being dumb. It reads like fan fiction, filled with unnecessary detours and diversions (hello, gaping hole in the Jedi Archives that was solved in about 30 seconds) rather than anything meaningful.

    Hell, the core of the story, Anakin, which is supposed to be the compelling part, is completely fumbled. Anakin is transformed from a child who sees the good in everyone and genuinely wants to help all he meets into a seething, self-loathing ball of whine. We can infer why that happens, but that's not as satisfying as seeing it on the screen. So, we have pure Anakin who's incongruent with jerk Anakin, and Sith Anakin who seems like a more violent version of jerk Anakin. We're supposed to be saddened by his fall from grace, but instead his decline in AotC and RotS merely feels inevitable, as though he simply embraced his true inner nature, with the kid from TPM a distant memory.

    To be fair, Luke had his fair share of moments when he was a selfish, whiny jerk, too. But that's what made his journey work. He went from adolescent to man in the course of three films. It's not nearly as rewarding to go from selfish, whiny jerk to master of evil and destroyer of planets. It just doesn't work.

    So, discussion forums should only be a place where fans compare how much they like something? My, how boring.
    vinsanity, V-2 and KilroyMcFadden like this.
  20. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    If it was so easy, you wouldn't have to tell us that.

    No, because things are just fine.

    You forgot about:
    - Anakin's childhood as a slave (--> accepting Jedi authory, hierarchy; "respect")
    - Anakin's meeting with Padmé, who was in many ways the only one who talked with him on a personal level (--> love story)
    - The Trade Federation's introduction (--> separatists)
    - Palpatine's move (--> chancellor)
    - functions of the Jedi Order, Republic, Senate etc.

    So you admit you're first complaint isn't a bad thing? Then why complain at all?
    Have you ever considered that some people may have other definitions of "fun", and "boring" or do you just assume that everyone else feels the same way you do?
    It all comes down to taste.

    1.) what if the shapeshifter succeeded?
    Padmé would be dead. What would that change about the plan? Nothing.
    It would rather help Palpatine to be able to create an army, because some members of Padmé's opposition might get frightened.
    2.) What if Jango kills/incapacitates Obi-Wan?
    Another Jedi would continue to investigate. Murder/death doesn't stop inverstigation. It's rather the opposite.

    Jango isn't "in league with the Separatists". Bounty hunters aren't in league with anyone, they just execute well paid orders.
    By the way, there wasn't time for deep analization. The Separatists were about to attack and a member of the Senate as well as two renown Jedi were about to be executed.
    Provisional capitulation was an option, right?

    Why would it? A complicated, burdened character (you call it "whiny") is wonderful, if you're interested. If you're interested in a badass contest, watch something else and stop complaining.

    Wow, two of the worst "arguments" combined. The "unnecessary" thing and the "most people" nonsense.
    1.) The Space Slug, all Boba Fett/Jabba sideplots, saarlac, numerous battles - unnecessary. Strict necessity just isn't the first and only criteria.
    2.) So you know about 3.5 billion individuals who watchend the film and don't care about Anakin? Otherwise your statement is an unsubstantial speculation.
    3.) Anakin may have selfish needs, but ultimately his fall was possible because he couldn't let go and still wanted to help (save) Padmé.

    No, but they should be aware of the difference between fact and fantasy.
    Last edited by Samnz, Feb 7, 2013
  21. YodaDooDahDay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2010
    star 3
    No, these are illegally copied and altered material created by bitter crybabies who have no respect for actual artists. All fan edits are defacements, nothing more. If YOU created a film and someone edited your hard work I'd call that a defacement too, even if I didn't like the film. I simply cannot understand in what universe you think doing this to an artist and their work is in any way acceptable. I don't care that people dislike the films. Changing another artist's work is wrong. It's arrogant. It's disrespectful of their rights and hard work. It should not be done or condoned. Period.

    Explain to me the pleasure you clearly take in lecturing to other people how their tastes are so wrong. What do you get out of it? These films exist and people are entitled to like them without your permission. You don't like them, and that's fine, but what's your goal here? Why bother throwing words like "naive" and "denial" around just because you don't like a film others do? Because, frankly, those words and that attitude just makes your fellow fans POed. This thread was created specifically so that old timers could chime in about what they LIKED about the PT. But for some reason, that's an irresistible call to some to just tell others how their tastes are wrong.

    Why is it so HARD to allow other fans the courtesy of liking something you don't?!
  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Where does Darths & Droids fall? It's screencaps rather than movie- but it takes the plots of the movies and uses them as the skeleton around which their own story is created- the story of a group of roleplaying gamers.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Feb 7, 2013
  23. YodaDooDahDay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2010
    star 3
    This threat was a question to oldtimers who enjoyed the PT, not a "tell us for the umpteenth time why they sucked and everyone who likes them is wrong" thread. Yeah, I guess every conversation could be spiced up with some good old "let me tell you that your subjective tastes are wrong" opinions, but that doesn't mean it's needed. all. the. time.
  24. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    Certainly not, but it is also boring if they become a place where people rehash old arguments ad nauseum - unfortunately that happens all too often on here. It's rather off-putting to unsuspecting fans who come to these forums looking for some friendly discussion and to share their love of Star Wars and instead find constant bickering. I just wonder how many people have seen it and left the forums altogether :(
    Cryogenic likes this.
  25. Blur Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 1999
    star 4
    Based on these responses I'm not the oldest fan on this board, which is nice :D

    IMHO, the PT also has some of the best acting in the entire Saga:

    TPM

    - Most of the scenes with Qui-gon. I knew that LN was a great actor prior to seeing TPM (Schindler's List, etc.), and he brought a gravitas to the SW universe that we really hadn't seen since AG in ANH. Qui-gon epitomized the wise older Jedi, and his controlled emotion was a great counterpoint to the character of Obi-wan.

    - The sequences when Anakin's mother realized she couldn't go with him to Coruscant, and the later scene when Anakin left her. Quite sad, especially since you knew that Schmi was letting Anakin go because she thought he was going to a better life. The obvious attachment Anakin felt towards his mother obviously made this even more powerful....

    AOTC

    - The sequence when Anakin found his mother & then subsequently took out the Sandpeople - his expression right before he did this was perfect. I also thought it was brilliant how they didn't show much of the actual event, but left it to the imagination.

    - The later scene when Anakin confessed this to Padme at the Lars moisture farm; his emotions during the confession were a great combination of guilt & rage - very hard to pull off well, but IMHO Hayden's acting was spot-on here. I actually attest this scene to possibly be the best bit of acting in the entire Saga.

    ROTS

    - The brief conversation/confrontation Obi-wan had with Anakin on Mustafar, the subsequent lightsaber battle, and the last sequence when Obi-wan warned Anakin not to attack him ("I have the high ground"). The scene when Obi-wan left a dying/burning Anakin on the ground was truly horrific, and IMHO quite possibly the most disturbing sequence in all of the films.
    Last edited by Blur, Feb 7, 2013
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