PT A question for the oldtimers - did anyone actually enjoy the prequel trilogy?

Well, I voted okay on the PT, and that is because there are things about the PT I liked and other things I don't.

TPM is kinda so bad it's good for me. If I watch it, I totally switch my brain off to enjoy it. While I do have fun watching the movie ... I don't respect it. I can't take it seriously. It is like watching Flash Gordon, only Flash Gordon is more fun.

AOTC I hate with a passion. Awful, awful movie. The only worthwhile part was the escape scene in the beginning. Padmé marries a mass murderer and Dooku tells the Jedi his entire plan. Nothing in the movie really makes any sense.

ROTS is a good movie though bogged down with some stupidity. Stupid character behavior and stupid characters. But at the same time it contains a lot of good scene, so on total I like the movie. It might even be on par with ROTJ ... no, who am I kidding? It isn't.

As for the whole political plot, it doesn't work for me. Palpatine is either too lucky or the other politicians/Jedi order too dumb. Politics (especially in TPM) often don't make any sense. Why couldn't they have done politics like in Babylon 5?

As for Anakins arc, it works somewhat, but on many levels it fails. Too much has been omitted that would've been important for the story. Also he goes bad way too soon (AOTC). He has already fallen in that movie which makes ROTS a farce. For that reason, I try to ignore AOTC.

 

PT got some satirical-love today from Andy Staples on SI.com, so if u like CFB...
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/co...ing-rules-urban-meyer/?sct=hp_wr_a3&eref=sihp

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Begin transmission

From: Sliveborg
To: Urban Meyer
So be it. This will be our final communication, but before I wash my hands of you, I want you to know what you'll be up against. You see, I have not been entirely honest with you. My name is not Sliveborg. It is Darth Slivious. I realize I have mixed my sci-fi mythologies again, but just go with it. I've always preferred destruction to assimilation. I'd like to introduce you to my apprentice. Come in. Come in. You may speak freely, and speak up so the traitor can hear you. "I'm sorry to be so late, my master. Four of my players were arrested overnight, and I spent the morning making arrangements to have them thrown into the bottomless maw of the Sarlacc. Their demises will free up four scholarships for new recruits." Exemplary work, my son. You have been a loyal apprentice, and I have no doubt that you will do what must be done to destroy the Midwestern Menace. Kneel before me. Lord Saban ... rise.

End transmission

 

I always cringed when someone tried to curse throughout the saga. I hate sci-fi cursing. It's so nerdy.

 

Who said it lacked credibility? Lets look at what I actually questioned. What were GL's aims (ie, what did he tell us he was aiming for with these films) and what were we then to expect? Well, we were supposed to be treated to the story of how a good person (the young Anakin we are introduced to in TPM) becomes a "Master of evil". Are we shown that? Part of the problem here is that the hubristic, angst-ridden teen remains into ROTS. What we have is the fully formed 'adult' Anakin appearing in AOTC with little (if any) further character development. The transition we are supposed to be shown within the arc of the movies has seemingly occurred already by the beginning of the second Episode.... and we are never shown it, we are to infer it. That seems not to fulfill what the movies are intended to show.

You end this by suggesting that those who don't 'get it' (essentially the gist of what is said - the standard refrain) miss the 'storybook aspect' but here we are to simply understand the 'realism' of an angst-ridden, typical teenager. But Anakin isn't a typical teenager, nor was he a typical boy. He's a boy who pod-races, a boy who 'gives without any thought of reward". It is not just his innate abilities in the Force (his power) that affects Qui-Gon, but his personality. He is special; he is especially good hearted. You, of course, downplay this in order to accentuate the 'normality' of the transition. He has been brought up in the Jedi temple, a place where he would be learning about self-control, about exhalting others before himself - which given his early form ought to come to him quite easily. There is a transition from the good person that was Anakin to the hubristic, self-centric Anakin that is not shown, and this is essentially the character of 'adult' Anakin that takes a small step to his fall.

What you say at the end of this section really sums up what the problems are. ie the suspicious, insensitive Jedi Order and its ways have alienated Anakin - well, says who? And, more pertinently, as you say "the seeds are firmly planted" - Exactly, and we are never shown what they are, in a series of movies that are supposed to reveal exactrly that....

It is a matter of opinion, but I really don't think that the friendship that is inferred by Old Ben in ANH "and a good friend" is shown to any reasonable degree in either AOTC or ROTS. We are given to understand they have shared many adventures, by means of jovial 'do you remember when...' references... Well, they might remember, but we - as the audience - don't, because we are not shown these moments. That is exposition. And what moments of friendship we are shown are constantly undercut by Anakin finding some reason to resent or blame Obi-Wan for his own problems. To the point that the duel at the end, far from being heart-wrenching (it is from Obi-Wan's perspective) seems simply inevitable when following Anakin's story arc.

Sympathy and empathy have very different backgrounds, but you seem to be misunderstanding the difference. Sympathy requires no empathy, it is simply the concern for the well-being of another. One may require empathy in order to feel such compassion, but the two are distinct. I do not need to know how another suffers in order to care that they do - that is sympathy. Empathy is the understanding of another's position. But as for the idea that Anakin is not supposed to be a sympathetic character? What? In order for the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker to work then of course he should be ssympathetic. otherwise why would I care?If he's not sympathetic then there is no tragedy - he's just some schmuck who's always had that in him - and in many ways that's exactly how Anakin comes off. The tragedy of a good man becoming evil without the need for that character to be sympathetic? The number of times I've read that and wondered how it makes any sense.

Its not that I don't 'get it', its that the story GL said he was gouing to tell through the movies simply isn't told. Anakin the good person is gone by AOTC, replaced by a self-centred thug who revels in and exhalts his power ( a good reason why I don't believe it is the 'insensitivity' of the Jedi which is the root of his change), and this same character resolves his emotional problems through violence - he is already, essentially, fallen.

 

Oh stop it. It all started (pandering to young children for toy sales) with Return Of The Jedi and we all know it. If by constructive you mean opinions that you agree with I'm sorry but, well, what's the thread title again? Lets read the thread title together....

A question for the oldtimers - did anyone actually enjoy the prequel trilogy?

 

You don't need to be verbose to make a positive contribution.

 

I disagree, particularly with the bolded section. The Anakin we meet in ROTS is less arrogant and more knowledgeable of his faults than he is in AOTC. He credits Obi-Wan with Palpatine's rescue and thanks him for his training. He apologizes for being arrogant and he's mature enough to recognize that he wants more and he should not. AOTC Anakin did not recognize this -- he constantly felt he was being held back. That's not to say that Anakin doesn't retain a lot of his faults (he's still arrogant and out to prove himself and ruled by his emotions) but they are much more tempered by self-awareness that he didn't have as a boastful young man in AOTC. I would, personally, that this is one of my favorite kinds of character development because it does take a great deal of maturity to admit to your flaws.

Primarily, I very much like the way the PT tells Anakin's story because essentially, it breaks down this way for me:

TPM describes Anakin's background and the foundation that made him susceptible to the Dark Side -- his past as a slave in which he grew up in a world where people were only valued for their skills, his love for his mother, his initial rejection by the Jedi Council, the loss of Qui-Gon, meeting Padmé and Palpatine. And so on. Anakin, at this point, is a child and doesn't really know any better about the world, but I think TPM does a good job of planting the seeds for his fall.

AOTC is really an examination of Anakin's flaws and personal failings and how that lured him to the Dark Side -- his arrogance, his anger, his dissatisfaction with the democratic system, his admiration of Palpatine, his fears for his loved ones, his impatience and petulance. It basically lays out a lot of the aspects of his personality that will play a role in his turn and his weaknesses -- such as his desire for power so that he can control death.

ROTS then shows Anakin as more mature and tempered. He thinks more readily of others and is more willing to recognize his own failings. Centrally, then, this film shows the direct circumstances that led to Anakin's fall -- friction with the Council, Palpatine's manipulation, ending the wary, and of course the threat to Padmé's life. It shows the direct external factors that contribute to his fall and this is probably why most people find Anakin more likeable (or at least easier to tolerate) in ROTS before his fall rather than AOTC.

I would argue that Anakin was, largely, a typical boy. He simply lived in atypical circumstances but he didn't know better. It caught up to him by AOTC. Anakin in AOTC still cares about others and risks his life repeatedly to that effect, but he's impatient and dissatisfied with how little control he has over his life. In particular, not being able to be with the people he loves. I'd say that the fact that Anakin chaffes against authority isn't exactly surprising. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon had quite a few disagreements and Obi-Wan was several years older than Anakin. I don't think it's that unusual. Plus, I think you're also ignoring the effect that Palpatine played. It's no coincidence (in my view) that some of Anakin's most extreme boasts -- such as wanting to be the most powerful Jedi ever or rivaling Master Yoda -- are paraphrased from Palpatine who tells him he is extraordinarily gifted and will be the most powerful of all the Jedi and does not need guidance.

As to "the seeds being planted" -- I've always felt Lucas was fairly explicit about this. Anakin being unable to see his mother and that causing his fears to explode and then later being told by a well-meaning Yoda to let go of those he fears to lose. You don't get much more incompatible than that, in my opinion.

I agree that a lot of it is a matter of opinion, but I think that people often overlook the fact that Obi-Wan is most likely to think of the years when he and Anakin fought side by side in the war -- when they were more equal rather than Master and padawan as this makes it easier to have a more relaxed friendship. And, really, we're not shown these moments? What about the opening chase sequence? What about their fight together in the arena? What about the entire opening of ROTS? Where Anakin saves Obi-Wan's life multiple times. Are you really saying you wouldn't consider someone a good friend after he carried your unconscious body as he was fleeing an enemy ship? Or when he helped guide your broken ship to a safe landing?

Yes, Anakin blames Obi-Wan for some of his problems in AOTC -- he blames him for not letting him move on and become more powerful, but I would hardly say this adds up to every moment in the films, particularly in ROTS.

Anakin and Obi-Wan aren't just friends and therein (in my opinion) lies much of the problem. They were never going to have the easy relationship of Han and Luke because theirs a hierarchical at its core. Obi-Wan is Anakin's friend, his mentor, his teacher, his guardian, his father, his brother, his comrade in arms etc. Han is only Luke's friend and comrade. That's a much simpler relationship with a lot less baggage.

By the time a character falls, sympathy may very well be gone. Othello is a tragedy, but I know of quite a few people who weren't sympathetic to his plight. As a more modern example, Death Note is a tragedy and yet the burning hatred a large segment of fans hold for the main character does not preclude it from being so. I disagree that Anakin always came off as a "schmuck" but, regardless, a tragedy can also be for the fact that a person so egregiously wasted their lives -- as is the case for Anakin. He could have been so much more than he became and therein lies the tragedy. Also, I think, your mileage may vary, but I do consider Anakin a good man. Could he be arrogant, immature, and petulant? Yes, but that does not belie his goodness -- he sacrificed his life to serving others. He left his family in order to fight in a war to protect others. I know a lot of soldiers with attitudes that I wouldn't say are particularly pleasant -- who make crude jokes and complain and aren't bastions of maturity -- but that would never cause me to question their goodness.

I don't know a lot of self-centered thugs who repeatedly risk their lives for others. Or leave their beautiful wives for months at a time in order to fight and risk death every day on the front lines. Is Anakin completely selfless? Of course not, but nor is he completely selfish either. His he flawed and does he desire power or control? Yes, but that's not all there is too him. Initially, when offered power and prestige by Palpatine, he turned him in. There were other factors that contributed to his fall. Does that justify what he did? Absolutely not, but I think your analysis of his character doesn't do him justice.

 

How many good men slaughter women and children, though? This is really a big problem I have with Anakins arc. Acting like a jerk ... okay. But he goes from jerk kid to mass murderer in a matter of minutes. That makes it quite impossible for me to view his story like that of a "normal kid", it becomes more of a psychological case study. Anakin Skywalker is ... simply put, a psychotic. In some ways, watching him go around and doing stuff resembles watching Hannibal Lector or Patrick Bateman. Even if I find this fascinating in its own way, I doubt this was ever the intention. If the PT was supposed to show us how good a man Anakin Skywalker was, it failed in the worst possible manner.

Palpatine didn't even need to turn Anakin Skywalker. He only needed to give him an excuse to embrace his inner dark self.

 

For me, it's the circumstances that are the deciding factor. The situation was so incredibly traumatizing and Anakin's shame and guilt over it so tangible, that I couldn't say he was an evil person for having done it. He committed very evil acts, no doubt about that, but I can't bring myself to say he's an evil person over it. Unlike Hannibal Lector or Patrick Bateman, who take pleasure in their killings, Anakin was clearly in a rage and not thinking clearly when he acted and then immediately felt guilt over his actions and confessed. That really is the distinction for me. I do think that he experienced something similar to a psychotic break (essentially derangement and loss of contact with reality) though:

A psychotic break occurs when a person experiences an episode of acute primary psychosis - generally for the first time

Causes

Many things can cause temporary psychosis. Environmental triggers, such as losing a loved one, are known to contribute, as may excessive stress,[3] or the interaction of strong social demands with a pre-existing vulnerability of self.[4]

Women who suffer from postpartum depression, for example, have been known to suffer psychotic breaks and kill their children. Given that Anakin had just lost a loved one (in a terrible manner) and was under an excessive amount of stress at the time, I'm not surprised that he could have suffered a psychotic break. In which case, he very much would have lost the ability to reason and suffered temporary insanity.

It's not a perfect analogy, of course, since there were no hallucinations or delusions but I do think that it would be unjust to compare Anakin to Lector or Bateman. There was no planning on Anakin's part -- it was purely a reaction to what was quite obviously a horrific triggering event.

 

This thread has run its course.