PT A question for the oldtimers - did anyone actually enjoy the prequel trilogy?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Krivlos_Arkh, Feb 6, 2013.

?

I loved the OT and I think the prequels are

Great 37 vote(s) 58.7%
Awful 5 vote(s) 7.9%
Ok 21 vote(s) 33.3%
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  1. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    I suppose that makes sense too.
  2. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    I still think Lucas should remake A New Hope but make Luke a 6 year old so they can sell more toys.
    Zane the Reaper likes this.
  3. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    I like your comment and all, but how does it have anything to do with my comment that you're quoting?
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    No idea what that is supposed to be.
  5. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    I'm confused and it's effecting my quoting skills either that or I'm just..well...do you like Phil Collins?
  6. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    It's a device invented to force you to watch the scene(s) where Anakin kills younglings and is subsequently burned alive in lava. Try it on...see if it fits....go ahead...it wont hurt....
  7. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I actually very much like the set-up for that scene. In hindsight, it's clear from the fact that TPM Anakin was too young to be trained that the issue of Jedi children was going to have to be addressed at some point, and I'm glad that Lucas didn't simply shunt it to the side and ignore the uglier aspects. I know some people find it to be distastefully-done but, in my opinion, it would have been no better had Anakin simply given an order. I consider a commander no less responsible than the soldier under his direction (especially if, as is the case for the clones, they don't exactly have a choice).

    For me, the scene works primarily because it takes Anakin at his most emotional vulnerable, when he is most desperate to believe that Palpatine has a solution, and also provides him a framework from which he can justify his atrocities to himself. Anakin, the way things play out in ROTS, doesn't seem to have wanted to side with Palpatine -- he'd initially tried to do the right thing and turn him in. It's only with his complicity in Mace Windu's murder that he realizes that he no longer has the means to oppose him. More importantly, given Palpatine's knowledge of the Clone Wars, it rapidly becomes clear that by temporarily siding with him, Anakin can end the war in one fell swoop (as, indeed, occurs). And Palpatine himself picks up on this by telling Anakin that he is restoring peace and order to the galaxy.

    It makes it much easier to do something so horrific -- when you believe it is for the greater good. If you can tell yourself that killing innocents will end a war and usher in a new, more effective form of government, then it's going through with it is made possible, and I think that's what Palpatine helps Anakin to do.

    But anyway, I'm not an "old-timer" so I guess I don't have too much to contribute to this thread. :p Just thought I'd throw out my two cents.
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    LOL, nice try but nope, once was enough.

    ETA: And I can see it better now, was looking on my phone a minute ago.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Feb 10, 2013
  9. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    I believe the full term is fishbait. Some people just throw these little morsels out with minimum effort, waiting for the fishes to bite.

    Sometimes, TFN feels more like IMDb, than, well, a sensible discussion board.

    If there's one thing that could have improved ROTS' second hour, it would have been to have given John Williams the day off and to just have shoved a load of Beethoven in there.
  10. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    He's alright.
  11. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    I preferred him that time he didn't shave for a year and grew 300 pounds of muscle:

    Darth kRud likes this.
  12. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    See post 156 and 158 in this thread. My point is...well. You know what my point is. Anyway I think some Erik Satie would have fit nice in some darker moments of contemplation. Gnossienne # 4 goes well with machination. Maybe some Federico Mompou during some believable love scenes?

    Cryogenic likes this.
  13. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    I wanted Let's Get It On to play at random moments.
    Cryogenic and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  14. Blur Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 1999
    star 4
    I understand why some didn't like seeing Anakin as a child in TPM & would have preferred seeing him older. However, IMHO initially presenting him as an innocent little kid was the whole point - everyone knew what was going to happen to the character later, so seeing him as a sympathetic & compassionate was key here; the scene when he took Qui-gon, Padme, Jar Jar, & R2-D2 (all complete strangers) to his home so they could take shelter from the sandstorm was very kind. This is why the film is so disturbing to me. The final scene with him standing next to Obi-wan (with his new Padawan haircut) while the uplifting celebration music played was quite sad, IMHO, given what we knew the character would do later.
  15. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    But he could have been a sympathetic and compassionate and nice despite being a few years older. An Anakin that is about 16-17 and still opens his house to Qui-Gon and the others, who helps them without thought of reward.
    The same effect could easily have been achived with a slightly older Anakin.

    Also, I knew from the OT, that Anakin was a good person, so I never expected PT Anakin to be some dark seed or rotten to the core.
    I expected a good person so seeing that would not be shocking or distrurbing at all. Anakin was a good person that was seduced by evil and his own anger and hate corrupted his reasoning and poisioned his mind until he became a ruhtless despot. Luke was a good person in the OT and he came within a hair of turning. So an Anakin that perhaps had a taste for adventure, that cared deeply about others and wanted to get involved and fight the good fight. All of that is what I could see a PT Anakin be, based on the OT.
    Besides, since EP I is meant to have been seen first, then the audience isn't supposed to know that Anakin will turn bad.

    I can understand Lucas desire to have a young Anakin in TPM but I think that the drawbacks outweigh the benefit. Far too much had to be moved to AotC. And Jake Lloyd was rather uneven in his performance so sometimes I didn't see the character of Anakin Skywalker, I saw Jake Lloyd doing line readings. And that took me out of the movie where he was concerned.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  16. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    One of Anakin's biggest issues is that he had left his mother when he was very young and still, although he wanted to go and have a better life, couldn't really let go.
    A 17 year old Anakin would have made a much more conscious choice. I mean, I don't know if a 9 year old boy can really see what it means to leave your mother for....ever. Read this Lucas quote:
    There were a lot of things that would have been easier if Anakin had been twelve. The casting would have been easier; and it would have been easier to justify things like the Podrace or the way he is able to fly a starfighter at the end of the movie.
    But the problem was that a twleve-year-old leaving his mother - as Anakin does - is not nearly as traumatic as a nine-year-old leaving his mother. And there is a key story point that revolves around the fact he was separated from his mother at an early age, and how that has affected him. So I slid the age down as far as I could - but then I had the problem of him being able to race ad Pod and fly a starfighter. Ultimately, it wasn't that hard to justify the Podrace. I set it up that he had done this kind of thin before; and there are nine-year-olds who race go-carts - so it wasn't too far-fetched. Having him pilot a spaceship was my main worry, and that was the thing I struggled with to make believable. I set it up that he is very bright, that he learns quickly, that he is already a pilot. I put in little scenes in which he is learning about the ship - a lot of that was interwoven throughout to make the ending work. I also had R2 in there with him, helping him to fly the ship. All of these things helped, but making the ending credible was one of the tougher issues.


    I think he should make Luke 45, that would equal TPM's lead male character (Qui-Gon):rolleyes:
  17. Zane the Reaper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 1
    It took me a long, long time to get over my dissapointment with the prequels. Now, I enjoy them... just not in the same way as the OT.

    I love certain aspects of the PT - the special effects (of course), seeing Coruscant, any scene with Palpatine (especially the opera scene in ROTS), etc.. I've even come to accept the PT portrayal of the Jedi - they were cold and dogmatic and short-sighted - ripe for Palpatine's purge.

    And I'm even starting to read and enjoy PT-inspired EU - ignored them for the longest time, but then I read Darth Plagueis and it made me hungry for more. So good.

    Basically, I enjoy the PT - I just accept that it's a much different tone than the OT, with a (much) different quality of acting.

    Bring on the Sequel Trilogy and spinoffs!
    vinsanity, Darth kRud and V-2 like this.
  18. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Ha, nice. I always find the "only to sell toys to kiddies" claim against TPM a bit suspect given that Qui-Gon was the first middle-age protagonist in the series. Until then we only had a teenage/early 20s farmboy and princess, a 30+ Han who most often sounded like a sarcastic teenager, and an old wizard.
  19. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4

    The problem is that they then had to change actor and character for the next film without any development onscreen.

    Imagine if they had a 9yr old play Luke in ANH then suddenly decide to stick in Hamill for ESB
    Darth kRud likes this.
  20. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    One of Anakin's biggest issues is that he had left his mother when he was very young and still, although he wanted to go and have a better life, couldn't really let go.
    A 17 year old Anakin would have made a much more conscious choice. I mean, I don't know if a 9 year old boy can really see what it means to leave your mother for....ever. Read this Lucas quote:
    There were a lot of things that would have been easier if Anakin had been twelve. The casting would have been easier; and it would have been easier to justify things like the Podrace or the way he is able to fly a starfighter at the end of the movie.
    But the problem was that a twleve-year-old leaving his mother - as Anakin does - is not nearly as traumatic as a nine-year-old leaving his mother. And there is a key story point that revolves around the fact he was separated from his mother at an early age, and how that has affected him. So I slid the age down as far as I could - but then I had the problem of him being able to race ad Pod and fly a starfighter. Ultimately, it wasn't that hard to justify the Podrace. I set it up that he had done this kind of thin before; and there are nine-year-olds who race go-carts - so it wasn't too far-fetched. Having him pilot a spaceship was my main worry, and that was the thing I struggled with to make believable. I set it up that he is very bright, that he learns quickly, that he is already a pilot. I put in little scenes in which he is learning about the ship - a lot of that was interwoven throughout to make the ending work. I also had R2 in there with him, helping him to fly the ship. All of these things helped, but making the ending credible was one of the tougher issues.
    [/quote][/QUOTE]


    First, the comment I was responding to was talking about how nice and good Anakin was in TPM and how that could be seen in hindsight given what we know would later happen to him.
    I simply responded with, an older Anakin could still be nice and a good person, and the same effect could have been achieved.

    Second, I know of Lucas reasons for making Anakin young but I still feel that the benefit did not outweigh all the drawbacks it entailed.
    Having Anakin 17-18 and leaving his mother could still be dramatic and emotional. And you could still have Anakin worrying about her. Perhaps he in some ways took care of her and she was left as a slave. So that worry could still gnaw at him. If she later winds up killed then Anakin can blame himself and wow not to fail again and become obsessed with power. Which mostly is what happens in AotC and RotS.

    In short, I think it is perfectly possible to tell the story Lucas wanted to tell with a slightly older Anakin. Some details needs to be changed but the overall story can still work much the same way. Obviously Lucas is free to tell the story in whatever way he wants but looking back on the PT, I think that an older Anakin, that could have stayed over the three films, might have worked better.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Feb 11, 2013
  21. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I've been reading all of these comments about why Anakin should have been in his late teens in TPM . . . and I find them irrelevant. From what I have read, no one really has a good excuse as to why his character should have been older. Not really. And I can't help but wonder if this feeling has more to do with the fact that Luke was in his late teens at the start of the OT. In other words, this sounds like the old "It was done in the OT and it should have been done this way in the PT" argument. That's the only vibe I'm picking up here.

    Could Lucas have made Anakin in his late teens in TPM? Sure. It was his choice to start Anakin's story at whatever age he wanted. But I see nothing in the story or in the arguments I have read that making Anakin older in the 1999 film would have improved the story. Not by a long shot.



    How? People keep making these declarations, but they never really explain what led them to make it.




    I still don’t sympathize with what Obi-Wan had done. I still believe that by leaving Anakin to slowly die was cruel. In the end, he only proved that he was capable of being no better than his former padawan. If that was Lucas' aim, I have no problem with what I saw on the screen. I do have a problem with people making excuses for Obi-Wan's actions.
    Last edited by DRush76, Feb 11, 2013
  22. Blur Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 1999
    star 4
    IMHO, the respective ages of Luke in ANH & Anakin in TPM worked well for these respective films:

    - I know this is not the argument here, but just wanted to point out that having Luke as a little kid in ANH would not have made any sense (not that this was ever the intention by Lucas here, obviously). One of the most important aspects to this character is his longing for adventure, desire to leave Tattoine, etc. If you look at this late-teens character, he is someone who has slowly watched his friends leave while he's stayed behind ("That's what you said when Biggs & Tank left", his conversation with Biggs in Anchorhead (as seen on the Blu-ray deleted scene) , etc.). Bottom line, a 9-year old Luke would not have been ready (either emotionally or physically) to join Obi-wan on his quest.

    - Conversely, having Anakin as a little kid in TPM makes perfect sense when you look at the PT in context. Taken from the Lucas quote in the above post, IMHO, a 9-year old has more connection to his mother than someone in his/her late teens. And, the whole point here was that he was not ready to leave his mother & home at that early age. And, as I mentioned earlier, IMHO he began his turn to the dark side in AOTC, when he found out what the Sandpeople did to his mother & his subsequent actions.

    - Going along with the above, as has been discussed before, IIRC in the TPM novelization it was mentioned that infant/baby potential Jedi Knights are initially "discovered" by adult Jedi who recognize they are force sensitive, and then (with their parents' permission, of course) are taken away to be raised in the Jedi Order before they have a chance to form emotional attachments to parents/family.

    - Also going along with the above, I also find it more believable that the Jedi Council allowed Anakin to be trained at a younger age (despite the mother connection). I.e., if Anakin were "too old" to begin the training (as stated by the Jedi on Coruscant) at age 9, he would definitely have been too old at age 16-18. Sure, Yoda trained Luke in ESB at age 21?!, but the reasons for this were basically that Luke was the galaxy's last hope, and there wasn't anyone else around (at that point) that Yoda could train...
    Last edited by Blur, Feb 11, 2013
  23. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    The point I hear (I don't subscribe to) about having an older Anakin in TPM is to have the same actor in all three films, which some believe wouldn't be so jarring as changing characters. While I can see their point, I don't see how that improves the story itself.
  24. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    This. Absolutely. I enjoy the PT by ignoring these aspects. I enjoy the PT movies because of the Star-Wars-ness (I'm patenting that term) of them; because of the visuals and the characters.
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Feb 11, 2013
  25. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    From my personal point of view its about the disjoint between good Anakin who "gives without any thought of reward" and the Anakin we are greeted to in AOTC. The change is dramatic and - given that the PT is supposed to be about Anakin's fall - we are left to wonder at this change. Surely we should be shown this change and the reasons. Just having a good kid re-appear many years later as a not so good kid doesn't show us the mechanism of the fall that is supposed to unfold before us.

    It would also allow the friendship with Obi-Wan to be shown, rather than simply referred to, talked about. We only really see conflicty between the two.
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