A Question of Britishness....

What does the term British mean?

Now this may seem like a simple question to those of you outside the borders of the UK but I think it has a different meaning to Britons. Here's why.

There has always been a Britain reaching far back to the Romans when the province was know as Britannia. However, politically Britain did not exist until the unification of the Scottish and English crowns whe James I (or James VI to the Scottish) became king of England after the death of Elizabeth I. Then in 1707 Queen Anne signed the act of Union creating the United Kingdom.

Now come my thoughts....

As an English man I class myself as British and English, an English Briton if you will. I know friends from Scotland who are adiment that they are Scottish through and through and my Welsh friends will have no truck with any English influence.

Questions:

1) Do others from the UK see themselves as both British and English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish?

2) Is it possible to be true to your native country and true the union even if this union is dominated by one part of said union?

3) Can Britishness exist or is it a convenient political label for all those in our geographical boundries or is it something far deeper/spiritual?

4) What of immigrants who become British citizens yet are obviously not from one of the home nations?

I had an interesting conversation with an Asian friend down the pub on this matter. He classes himself as British and was surprised when I classed myself as English.

One last thing.....is this where the confusion of many foreigners lie when they confuse English with British?

This may be of no interest to anyone else out there but I am fascinated by the whole issue of "Britishness" and feel it is more than national boundries and borders and more than a political term to describe people living in one place.

Thoughts please, if you have any.

 

1) Do others from the UK see themselves as both British and English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish? I see myself as Scottish first and British second. I used to say I was British first, but this has changed since I've been at uni, mainly because I've been more exposed to people from all over the world than when I was at school. I suppose it's got something to do with the students from England who hear the accent and label me as being Scottish. At Edinburgh Uni, there are so many English students that saying you're Scottish gives you more of an identity. Also, I'd tend to say I was Scottish when I go abroad cos some nations don't seem to like 'the English' very much... (I say 'the English' cos it's unlikely that they actually know enough English people to have a properly formed opinion...)

2) Is it possible to be true to your native country and true the union even if this union is dominated by one part of said union? Erm, I'd never really thought about it... Well, I suppose it is possible. Like I said, I consider myself Scottish, but I don't vote for the Scottish National Party. I don't think Scotland should be independent. I think the Scottish Parliament is a good thing because, for example, the legal system and the education system are different here than in England and Wales (and as far as I know they always have been).

3) Can Britishness exist or is it a convenient political label for all those in our geographical boundries or is it something far deeper/spiritual? I think it can exist. In spite of all the racism, etc, that exists between different parts of the UK, we all have something in common and not just that share a bit of land. Some parts of our culture are the same wherever you go. British humour, for example - we can all laugh at pretty much the same things.

4) What of immigrants who become British citizens yet are obviously not from one of the home nations? Do they see themselves as British? Don't ask me, I'm from Paisely! But seriously... I reckon 'native' Brits could learn a lot from people who've lived elsewhere but have chosen to make Britain their home. But I guess Britain's a pretty xenophobic country as a whole.

 

1) Do others from the UK see themselves as both British and English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish?

I see myself as British; not one particular nationality. That's basically because my home is in one of them, my University in another, and a vacation house, which I spend most of the summer at, in another.

2) Is it possible to be true to your native country and true the union even if this union is dominated by one part of said union?

Well, you're obviously referring to England. Yes, I think it is possible. You just class yourself as your nationality first, and British last. For example, if the states in the USA were more independent, you might say you were from Kansas first, and the USA second.

3) Can Britishness exist or is it a convenient political label for all those in our geographical boundries or is it something far deeper/spiritual?

Well, there is certainly a unique British culture; one that I generally don't conform to. So yes, Britishness exists, but it isn't universal across the union.

4) What of immigrants who become British citizens yet are obviously not from one of the home nations?

Well, legally speaking, they're British, just like the rest of us. Whether they are 'British' British is a different matter, though. For example, I wouldn't consider myself 'British' British, even though I was born and raised (well, half here and half in Australia) in the union, but I know several Asian immigrants, both recent and second generation, who I would class as 'British' British.

I had an interesting conversation with an Asian friend down the pub on this matter. He classes himself as British and was surprised when I classed myself as English.

One last thing.....is this where the confusion of many foreigners lie when they confuse English with British?

Yes. For a lot of people, British/English is interchangeable. My American girlfriend is guilty of that... we were talking about capital cities once, and she mentioned London as the capital of Britain.

- Scarlet.

 

good thread, and interesting points Darth_Asabrush

I think what you'll find it that all the non-English people will say they are either Welsh, Irish or Scottish, while all the English people will say they are British.

To too many people, England is Britain - most of the people of the UK live there and the majority of commerce and industry is based there.

Non-English people fight to keep their nationality and avoid be swallowed up by the dominant English. Hence I am, and will always be Scottish.

I hate it when non-UK people call Britain "England", and it happens all too often on these boards (predominantly by the Americans). I really hate it.

What annoys me more is that they don't understand why I hate it. I usually tell them to go watch "BraveHeart", or perhaps attend a Scotland-England rugby or football match.

We should really ask the people from the Isle of Man - they really are British, as they have no allegence to any of the home nations.
Oh, and we could ask my girlfriend as she was born in a British Army camp in Germany! She considers herself English as her parents are English, and she's lived in England for the majority of her life.

Yes, I know, that means I'm dating an English girl my parents are extremely disappointed

Bottom line - my passport says I'm British, but I'm Scottish on the inside !

malkie

 

" I hate it when non-UK people call Britain "England", and it happens all too often on these boards (predominantly by the Americans). I really hate it. "

yes, but there you make the same mistake - you call people of the USA "Americans" despite the fact that the term really includes everybody on the continent of America. And who didn't call the USSR "Russia" when it still existed? We all did, many times.

 

yes, but there you make the same mistake - you call people of the USA "Americans" despite the fact that the term really includes everybody on the continent of America.

No, everyone from the USA are Americans. Not everyone from Britain is English.

United States of America - hence people from the USA are Americans. I doubt that many people from Mexico, or Brazil ever refer to themselves as Americans. They are South Americans, as far as I'm European, but I'd never call myself European in a description of myself.

and anyways, you describe yourselves as Americans, so don't get shirty if we start calling you Americans too. People from the UK who are not English will never call themselves English, hence you've made the mistake.

malkie

 

Interesting thread.

I'm English, but the only time I would declare myself as English would be to differentiate myself from Scots or the Welsh. And in football terms, I'm English.

At all other times, I refer to myself as British - my allegiance is to the United Kingdom, and to state that you're 'British' evokes a much more powerful, proud background than claiming 'I'm English' would. Don't know why, but I'm guessing the term 'British' has Victorian, imperial connotations, while 'English' doesn't. It also makes sense to call oneself British, as the majority of us in England are mongrels, with at least some Scots, Welsh or Irish blood in us.

When devolution was first initiated, I heard some really interesting points from the SCottish and Welsh independance groups, which really made me realise just how weird the Union is - they were actually ashamed to be associated with the English, and saw the Union as a bond shackling them to the Auld Enemy, whereas the view in England is that Scotland, Ulster and Wales share a common background and a common culture, and hence are all part of one common nation, unified by the Crown.

 

" and anyways, you describe yourselves as Americans, so don't get shirty if we start calling you Americans too. People from the UK who are not English will never call themselves English, hence you've made the mistake.
"

First, I'm not American. Second, I used the America and Russia examples to show you that it's perfectly natural for all of us (including you) to make such mistakes. Or are you trying to tell me that you never in your life have called the Netherlands "Holland"? (Holland is only a part of the NL just as England is a part of the UK)

 

I wasn't addressing you when I said "you' (notice the bold). I was addressing the people that make the mistake. You have not made that mistake.

I do not know what the Netherlands exactly covers - can you explain it for me as I am quite interested. As far as I can see, the Netherlands is Holland, from Delfzijl in the north to Maastricht in the south. I realise that it has not always been this way, with areas of Belgium once being part of the Netherlans.

However, as far as things go today I think Holland and the Netherlands are essentially the same country. If not, can you enlighten me please

malkie

 

we might need to ask somebody who's actually Dutch to answer this correctly but Holland is only two of the 12 provinces of the Netherlands. The full list of provinces can be found here:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/nl.html

 

erm, I think you are mistaken.

Those 12 provinces are areas of Holland - a bit like the states of America, the counties of England, or the regions of Scotland.

Hence Netherlands = Holland.

malkie

 

as I said, I think we need a Dutch person to shed light on it although the fact that there are two provinces called "Holland" would suggest my point of view.

We're moving away from the point of this thread however

 

There you go

 

OK, here we go

http://www.netherlands-embassy.org/fie_country.html

"2 Is there a difference between the Netherlands and Holland?

The Netherlands is often called Holland. But North and South Holland are in fact the two coastal provinces in the west that played an important part in the country's history. "

This should answer this once and for all. The Netherlands is NOT Holland. Let's move back to the British theme

 

so where are you from ?

 

I'm Irish

 

Eire or Ulster ?

If Ulster, do you consider yourself British at all ?

If Eire, does anyone ever think you are British, and does it bother you if they do?

malkie

 

from Eire. Lots of people in the USA call me British whenever I go over (every month on business). In Europe this doesn't really happen, I spent 5 years in Germany and nobody there ever called me English or British.

 

I would be very surprised if anyone called someone from any part of Ireland "English"! But stranger things have happened.

Thanks for the repsonses!

 

I get called English all the time in America

 

From an American's point of view, you Brits are some of the most brave, loyal, culturally wealthy, and respectable people on earth. I'm thankful that you English and us Americans share such a fine rapport (even though we dont always agree.) You folks are some of my favorite people. Bless you all, my pond seperated neighbors. CHEERS


-Your Friendly Nighborhood Landri

 

I'm thankful that you English and us Americans share such a fine rapport

are you suggesting that the Welsh, Irish and Scots don't share the "fine rapport", or are you proving my point stated above that Americans too often say "England" when they mean "Britain"

malkie

 

yeah. all you guys. no need to jump all over me for something I forgot to mention. cripes, cant say anything nice anymore, just stating my opinion. sorry if I offended you. sheeeesh with a capitol S.

 

well to put another perspective in, what about the Commenwealth? Being British may now be only confined to the British Ilse, but it was only 50 years ago that it meant so much more.....i am not talking about the entire empire here, i am talking about the citizens of the so called white/settler dominions, like Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc......people of my grandparent's generation grew up as citizens of this wider British identity..they saw themselves as British, even though they lived thousands of miles away from the "homeland".
Although this shared identity has long since gone (mainly since end of ww2-britain's entry into the EEC) alot of people of my generation still make Britain their first port of call in their overseas travels, often living there for several years....they may no longer be british, but they still do have some strong attraction......

Although i am a 7th generation NZer i classify myself as of British ethincity.....its either that or call myself an Irish (Protestant and Catholic)-Scottish-English New Zealander, which is pretty cumbersome in my opinion.

 

yeah. all you guys. no need to jump all over me for something I forgot to mention. cripes, cant say anything nice anymore, just stating my opinion. sorry if I offended you. sheeeesh with a capitol S.

and now you've nicely proved my second point that you don't understand why we get annoyed when Americans make the mistake.

malkie